What was the message of Yeshua?

[Lulav]

John's message was clear,

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.


He was preparing the way without knowing who it was that he was preparing for.

Moses wrote

15 "ADONAI will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 16 just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested ADONAI your God, 'Don't let me hear the voice of ADONAI my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!' 17 On that occasion ADONAI said to me, 'They are right in what they are saying. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him. 19 Whoever doesn't listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.

I believe that Moses was speaking of Yeshua, he was the prophet to come. How was he like Moses?

Who was Moses?

Moses was the grandson of the Pharaoh. In some of the Dynastys if there was no son of the Pharaoh, or he had died the Grandson would be next in line. Moses could very well have been so. He was schooled in all the ways of Egypt. The Pharaoh was god on earth. In Genesis in the story of Joseph, The Pharaoh gave Joseph all the power he had, except when sitting on the throne. Moses, in an Egyptian family would have had the same power, yet the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob turned him to be his representative on earth and to speak to the people his words.

Now the one to come would do the same thing.

Rabbi Boteach in his new book, Kosher Jesus had this to say (paraphrasing here)


The Jews for a long time have believed Jesus to be the man who had abrogated the Law and said that the Torah was now mostly abolished. But in Truth, Jesus was not that man. The more he studied on this, the more he discovered that Jesus had not done all that he had been accused of. The people who represented him in this way had a vested interest in doing so. He believes that they superimposed onto
Jesus the antipathy they felt towards Jews. They portrayed his teachings as being hostile to Judaism when the fact was everything he taught stemmed from the same Judaism he practiced.

He has found that almost every lesson Jesus taught was classic Torah wisdom.

He defines Jesus as a Torah observant Jew, not much different than the Orthodox of today. Also he sees him as a Devout Rabbi and Pharisee.

Most importantly to me he sees him as a man who worked to rekindle the Jewish ritual observance of every aspect of the Torah.

Boteach speaks of 'The Stranger' who comes along and changes all that.

My question is, if the message of Yeshua was that he would die for our sins and if we believed that we would be sinless before G-d why was John's message one of repentance? Teshuvah, means to return. To return to what? Torah.

This is a debate welcome thread to try out the new tag, please, lets be kind to each other as we express our feelings and understandings.

 

[Jerushabelle]

If??????????

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

John's message was clear,

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.


He was preparing the way without knowing who it was that he was preparing for.

Moses wrote



I believe that Moses was speaking of Yeshua, he was the prophet to come. How was he like Moses?

Who was Moses?

Moses was the grandson of the Pharaoh. In some of the Dynastys if there was no son of the Pharaoh, or he had died the Grandson would be next in line. Moses could very well have been so. He was schooled in all the ways of Egypt. The Pharaoh was god on earth. In Genesis in the story of Joseph, The Pharaoh gave Joseph all the power he had, except when sitting on the throne. Moses, in an Egyptian family would have had the same power, yet the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob turned him to be his representative on earth and to speak to the people his words.

Now the one to come would do the same thing.

Rabbi Boteach in his new book, Kosher Jesus had this to say (paraphrasing here)


The Jews for a long time have believed Jesus to be the man who had abrogated the Law and said that the Torah was now mostly abolished. But in Truth, Jesus was not that man. The more he studied on this, the more he discovered that Jesus had not done all that he had been accused of. The people who represented him in this way had a vested interest in doing so. He believes that they superimposed onto
Jesus the antipathy they felt towards Jews. They portrayed his teachings as being hostile to Judaism when the fact was everything he taught stemmed from the same Judaism he practiced.

He has found that almost every lesson Jesus taught was classic Torah wisdom.

He defines Jesus as a Torah observant Jew, not much different than the Orthodox of today. Also he sees him as a Devout Rabbi and Pharisee.

Most importantly to me he sees him as a man who worked to rekindle the Jewish ritual observance of every aspect of the Torah.

Boteach speaks of 'The Stranger' who comes along and changes all that.

My question is, if the message of Yeshua was that he would die for our sins and if we believed that we would be sinless before G-d why was John's message one of repentance? Teshuvah, means to return. To return to what? Torah.

This is a debate welcome thread to try out the new tag, please, lets be kind to each other as we express our feelings and understandings.

That wasn't the message per se, to return to Torah. In a way yes. The greatest commandment of the Torah is love God. That's what the message was.

 

[Avodat]

...if the message of Yeshua was that he would die for our sins and if we believed that we would be sinless before G-d why was John's message one of repentance?...

Was his message from day one of his ministry that he would die for our sins, or was that something that appeared when it became clear that the people of his day rejected his message of repentance and obedience to the real Law of G_d? Was that why he asked if there was another way before going to the cross - could he try something else - another attempt at convincing the people?

Debatable issues!

 

[Jerushabelle]

How is the omniscience of God debatable? Before His birth, Yeshua knew what He was coming for and He knew what laid ahead of Him.

 

[Lulav]

That wasn't the message per se, to return to Torah. In a way yes. The greatest commandment of the Torah is love God. That's what the message was.

Are you speaking of what John preached?

Repent=teshuvah, it means to turn back, turn back to what, G-d but in the sense of keeping his commandments, how else do you turn back to him?

 

[Lulav]

How is the omniscience of God debatable? Before His birth, Yeshua knew what He was coming for and He knew what laid ahead of Him.

Not up for debate, please don't derail.

 

[Lulav]

...if the message of Yeshua was that he would die for our sins and if we believed that we would be sinless before G-d why was John's message one of repentance?...

Was his message from day one of his ministry that he would die for our sins, or was that something that appeared when it became clear that the people of his day rejected his message of repentance and obedience to the real Law of G_d? Was that why he asked if there was another way before going to the cross - could he try something else - another attempt at convincing the people?

Debatable issues!

Those are some very good thoughts.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Not up for debate, please don't derail.

How is responding to another poster derailing the thread? I was responding to Brother Avodat whose thoughts you found favorable. My thoughts you don't find favorable so I am, therefore, derailing the thread? Perhaps you could answer the question?

 

[Jerushabelle]

Repent=teshuvah, it means to turn back, turn back to what, G-d but in the sense of keeping his commandments, how else do you turn back to him?

With Faith.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua's message to me was the moving from ritual obedience to living obedience in love just as he told the poor rich young ruler who thought he had the requirements down pat.

It was more than for this world, but also for the world to come when there will be no more sin. After all, God's ultimate goal is to remove sin from the sinner, cleansing them from all unrighteousness, preparing them to live for eternity in His Presence.

The symbolism and patterns of temple services were to illustrate the redemption process, but when they were fulfilled, and not all of them are, they went from rehearsal to memorials. We may perform them but we do not fulfill them. We learn by example, and Yeshua revealed Himself as the Messiah with His first coming. It is an example of how He will fulfill the fall feasts with His second coming.

The story told in Yom Kippur, for example, show the final debate when the two goats are before the congregation and the priests cast lots and choose to sacrifice one while the other remains outside where the congregation can see it. They, the believers by faith, will follow the High Priest inside making that final atonement, cleansing the sanctuary, and the books of life for all are closed at the end of the service. When the High Priest comes out to lay all the blame on the scapegoat and sends him to the wilderness by the hand of a fit man, we can see Satan, doing the greatest imitation of Jesus Christ, before the world's eyes, and off of where it is really happening for believers. If it were possible Satan will deceive the very elect.

Yeshua's message can be found in the marriage, the virgins, for this time. Yom Kippur is known as the Wedding. The time when we will be united with Him for ever.

 

[Henaynei]

That wasn't the message per se, to return to Torah. In a way yes. The greatest commandment of the Torah is love God. That's what the message was.

The Message has always included "love G-d" - from the beginning. And from The Beginning that love was defined as choosing obedience to G-d's instructions instead "doing what seems right" in our own eyes. In fact, "doing what seems right" in our own eyes is defined as sin.

Thus, Torah instructs and leads those who love G-d in how HE defines love, both of G-d and of our neighbor. Doing "love" our own way is actually rebellion and sin.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[jcpro]

John's message was clear,

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.


He was preparing the way without knowing who it was that he was preparing for.

Moses wrote



I believe that Moses was speaking of Yeshua, he was the prophet to come. How was he like Moses?

Who was Moses?

Moses was the grandson of the Pharaoh. In some of the Dynastys if there was no son of the Pharaoh, or he had died the Grandson would be next in line. Moses could very well have been so. He was schooled in all the ways of Egypt. The Pharaoh was god on earth. In Genesis in the story of Joseph, The Pharaoh gave Joseph all the power he had, except when sitting on the throne. Moses, in an Egyptian family would have had the same power, yet the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob turned him to be his representative on earth and to speak to the people his words.

Now the one to come would do the same thing.

Rabbi Boteach in his new book, Kosher Jesus had this to say (paraphrasing here)


The Jews for a long time have believed Jesus to be the man who had abrogated the Law and said that the Torah was now mostly abolished. But in Truth, Jesus was not that man. The more he studied on this, the more he discovered that Jesus had not done all that he had been accused of. The people who represented him in this way had a vested interest in doing so. He believes that they superimposed onto
Jesus the antipathy they felt towards Jews. They portrayed his teachings as being hostile to Judaism when the fact was everything he taught stemmed from the same Judaism he practiced.

He has found that almost every lesson Jesus taught was classic Torah wisdom.

He defines Jesus as a Torah observant Jew, not much different than the Orthodox of today. Also he sees him as a Devout Rabbi and Pharisee.

Most importantly to me he sees him as a man who worked to rekindle the Jewish ritual observance of every aspect of the Torah.

Boteach speaks of 'The Stranger' who comes along and changes all that.

My question is, if the message of Yeshua was that he would die for our sins and if we believed that we would be sinless before G-d why was John's message one of repentance? Teshuvah, means to return. To return to what? Torah.

This is a debate welcome thread to try out the new tag, please, lets be kind to each other as we express our feelings and understandings.

.

 

[anisavta]

Jcpro - this is for MJers only.

 

[jcpro]

Jcpro - this is for MJers only.

I removed it

 

[Lulav]

How is responding to another poster derailing the thread? I was responding to Brother Avodat whose thoughts you found favorable. My thoughts you don't find favorable so I am, therefore, derailing the thread? Perhaps you could answer the question?

Sorry, you didn't quote anyone so I thought you were responding to the OP. However I don't see how Avodat brought up the subject of Omnipotence, so as the Thread starter I am saying this is off topic.

 

[Lulav]

The Message has always included "love G-d" - from the beginning. And from The Beginning that love was defined as choosing obedience to G-d's instructions instead "doing what seems right" in our own eyes. In fact, "doing what seems right" in our own eyes is defined as sin.

Thus, Torah instructs and leads those who love G-d in how HE defines love, both of G-d and of our neighbor. Doing "love" our own way is actually rebellion and sin.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Yes! There are so many that believe they know best and know how to show G-d they love him, when he has given us specific instructions on how to do that.

Many wives wonder how to please their husbands, but if he doesn't give them any clues as to what pleases him and what displeases him it's only a guessing game. But when she knows she is safe and secure doing what pleases him.

 

[yedida]

The only thing I can add is that if you really read Yeshua's words in the synoptics and Rev. very little is said about his dying for our sins, not even much about specifically having faith in him - it's all about obedience.
The cake (faith) in the oven will only rise if the ingredients (obedience) are mixed in properly, otherwise, it's a flat, sad mess.

 

[Avodat]

The only prophecy we have about Messiah specifically dying for the sins of the people is the Isaiah 52/53 section. All the rest of our theology on this matter comes from post the cross and is read back into the life, death and resurrection of Yeshua; I don't have a problem with that but we need to recognise it. I am sure G_d (meaning his and our father) knew what would happen ultimately - yes, omniescient, but Yeshua gave up his G_dly life (Philippians) and so, as one of us he had to work it through without the foresight his father had for the overall situation. However, the more I read about Yeshua's life and I try to place it in the solid ground of the Tanach, the more I come to think that Yeshua came to earth to SHOW AND TEACH how it was supposed to be, in G_d's eyes - that they would have the law written on their new hearts. Because the people were so stiff necked and arrogant, Yeshua came into the world NOT TO JUDGE the people but to show and teach them what G_d required of them. As in the parable of the vineyard owner, the people didn't want to change and they sought, almost from the beginning, to get rid of him. When it became clear this wasn't going to run. Yeshua began to see that the only way forward was to lay down his life for us, which he willing did so that, at just the right time, when we were lost in our sins, he came into the world. We need to dwell on the fact that Yeshua said no one could take his life from him - he could lay it down and take it up again.

 

[yedida]

The only prophecy we have about Messiah specifically dying for the sins of the people is the Isaiah 52/53 section. All the rest of our theology on this matter comes from post the cross and is read back into the life, death and resurrection of Yeshua; I don't have a problem with that but we need to recognise it. I am sure G_d (meaning his and our father) knew what would happen ultimately - yes, omniescient, but Yeshua gave up his G_dly life (Philippians) and so, as one of us he had to work it through without the foresight his father had for the overall situation. However, the more I read about Yeshua's life and I try to place it in the solid ground of the Tanach, the more I come to think that Yeshua came to earth to SHOW AND TEACH how it was supposed to be, in G_d's eyes - that they would have the law written on their new hearts. Because the people were so stiff necked and arrogant, Yeshua came into the world NOT TO JUDGE the people but to show and teach them what G_d required of them. As in the parable of the vineyard owner, the people didn't want to change and they sought, almost from the beginning, to get rid of him. When it became clear this wasn't going to run. Yeshua began to see that the only way forward was to lay down his life for us, which he willing did so that, at just the right time, when we were lost in our sins, he came into the world. We need to dwell on the fact that Yeshua said no one could take his life from him - he could lay it down and take it up again.

I thought you were going to bed!! Couldn't sleep?