What was the age difference between Mary and Joseph?

[miamited]

Hi SS,

While all of this talk about the ages of Mary and Joseph is purely academic calisthenics of minds that desire to know the unknowable, I'm curios about your claims that a certain age is required of a man and a woman to make marriage 'right'. For all we know they may both have been in their 20's or there may have been some fairly wide separation in their ages, all of that is just guesswork. But at what age is it 'right' for a woman to be married?

As far as we can tell from the Scriptures, Mary was not coerced into marriage. It seems to have been an agreed marriage between the two of them. Secondly, I'm not sure that modern civilization, or at least western, understands the process of a Jewish marriage in those days. Finally, God seems to have been OK with Mary's age. After all, He sent an angel to Joseph telling him not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife.

So, whatever age Mary was when Joseph took her as his wife, God approved. Who else's approval would be needed?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[RDKirk]

So, whatever age Mary was when Joseph took her as his wife, God approved. Who else's approval would be needed?

The implication of the OP is that God was morally wrong in choosing a teenaged girl.

However, it's actually this society that is morally wrong in treating young adults as children into their thirties. "Adolescence" is a concept that was only invented in the 20th century.

 

[BryanW92]

However, it's actually this society that is morally wrong in treating young adults as children into their thirties. "Adolescence" is a concept that was only invented in the 20th century.

 

[miamited]

The implication of the OP is that God was morally wrong in choosing a teenaged girl.

However, it's actually this society that is morally wrong in treating young adults as children into their thirties. "Adolescence" is a concept that was only invented in the 20th century.

Hi RD,

Right! Well, we'd have to be able to first 'prove' that Mary was a young teenaged girl when she married Joseph before we could even entertain the idea that God was morally wrong in His choosing her. I guess, for that, I'm glad that we don't have any indication of Mary's age. It makes the whole discussion just a gymnastic exercise of possible 'if's' and 'maybe's'. She was old enough to travel alone quite a distance to Elizabeth's and Zacharias' home. Personally, I'm confident that whatever her age, God was not morally wrong in His choosing her to be the mother of His Son.

The accounts that we do have of Mary interacting with her son in his later life certainly don't indicate that she was considered particularly young to be married in those days. I'm often amazed by the whimsical ideas that people come up with to question God and His authority. A mere whimsy of a 'what if' and we build a foundation based on absolutely no factual data to lead us to try and show that God is morally corrupt. Wow!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Sammy-San]

You asked the question "If Joseph was an adult and Mary was a teenager, why would she be married to an adult, especially an adult much older than her?"

I just told you why: It was and is common in most cultures for women to marry any time after menstruation began.



Until the early 20th century in the West, there was no such thing as "adolescence." The very concept of adolescence was invented only about 100 years ago. Prior to then, children were children, then at sexual maturity, they became young men and young women. They were expected to begin taking up the responsibilities of adults, and to assume those roles as soon as they became capable.

That was true regardless of economic level. Wealthy or poor, by the time a person became a teenager, he or she began operating in the world of adults. There was none of this extended childhood business--that has now been extended as late as 30 years old.

Until the early 20th century in the West, there was no such thing as "adolescence." The very concept of adolescence was invented only about 100 years ago. Prior to then, children were children, then at sexual maturity, they became young men and young women. They were expected to begin taking up the responsibilities of adults, and to assume those roles as soon as they became capable.

What do you mean by it was an invented concept? I think adolescence is modern society recognizing that a person doesn't just go straight from being a child to being an adult in biological and mental terms.

I know it seems weird and random that I'm commenting on this old thread, but I was thinking of this topic recently and wanted to comment on it.

 

[RDKirk]

What do you mean by it was an invented concept? I think adolescence is modern society recognizing that a person doesn't just go straight from being a child to being an adult in biological and mental terms.

Society says that teenager is a sexual being, not only having sex but also capable of making his or her own decisions without parental guidance (interference) on abortion, gender identity, physical augmentation, et cetera.

So what part of that is " modern society recognizing that a person doesn't just go straight from being a child to being an adult in biological and mental terms?"

 

[Sketcher]

Women commonly married as teenagers back then, to older men. 30's old. Catholic and Orthodox traditions have Joseph as even older than that, because they believe he must have had all of Jesus' siblings by a previous wife who would have died. I don't accept that, it is not theologically necessary for Jesus to be God made flesh, I believe Joseph was closer to 30 than 60.

 

[RDKirk]

Women commonly married as teenagers back then, to older men. 30's old. Catholic and Orthodox traditions have Joseph as even older than that, because they believe he must have had all of Jesus' siblings by a previous wife who would have died. I don't accept that, it is not theologically necessary for Jesus to be God made flesh, I believe Joseph was closer to 30 than 60.

From the very scanty information regarding Jesus' relationship with those scripture indicates as His siblings, I think it fits very nicely for Jesus to have been the youngest of the siblings (and, to maintain Mary's virgin condition at His birth, her as the second wife of a widowed Joseph) rather than the eldest. His siblings didn't pay Him nearly enough respect for Him to have been the eldest.

 

[Sketcher]

From the very scanty information regarding Jesus' relationship with those scripture indicates as His siblings, I think it fits very nicely for Jesus to have been the youngest of the siblings (and, to maintain Mary's virgin condition at His birth, her as the second wife of a widowed Joseph) rather than the eldest. His siblings didn't pay Him nearly enough respect for Him to have been the eldest.

Then again, he was making radical claims about himself that they didn't believe and that the religious leaders didn't like. If he wasn't the eldest, then how much more respect would he have had if he had been the eldest, all else being the same?

 

[miamited]

Hi all,

You know, I've know a lot of Jewish couples. Of course, none 2,000 years old. However, I have pictures and accounts of young Jewish couples being taken into the internment camps of Europe. I have plenty of historical evidence going back at least 4 or 5 hundred years that young Jewish men married young Jewish girls all the time. That their ages were fairly compatible with gentile ages of husbands and wives. I'm pretty firmly convicted, despite all those who would try to tell me that 'in those days' Jewish women married much older men as a fairly regular practice, that it just ain't so. I believe that Mary and Joseph were relatively contemporary in age. They were a young couple who had lived a life devoted to and understanding and knowing their God. I believe that was the fairly regular and common couple getting married in Isreal 2,000 years ago. Unlike in our day where parents are generally pretty inept at teaching their children about their God, in Judaism it was a part of the law. God commanded that parents teach their children about Him. To talk about Him to their children when they got up and when they laid down. As they traveled the roadways. To post His laws and commands on their doorposts. God seems to have made a pretty big deal among His people of a parents responsibility to teach their children about God and I am firmly convicted that on the whole most of Isreal practiced that 2,000 years ago.

Now, some parents may not have told the children the truth because they had listened to the scribes and pharisees who were busy chasing over hell to drag converts back to turn them into dogs of hell worse than themselves, but...

I believe that Jewish parents took very seriously God's command that they were to teach their children about Him. I know, although most of you will want to change that to 'well, he believes', that Jesus was the oldest of Mary and Joseph's children. That the other children of Mary and Joseph were conceived in the same normal way that all other children have been born since the days of Adam. That Mary was not a perpetual virgin, but enjoyed and practiced marriage just like everyone else did in those days.

However, I do also understand that everyone has their own beliefs. For me, the question is always, "What is the truth?"

God bless you all
In Christ, Ted

 

[RDKirk]

Then again, he was making radical claims about himself that they didn't believe and that the religious leaders didn't like. If he wasn't the eldest, then how much more respect would he have had if he had been the eldest, all else being the same?

Being sane was not a requirement for respect. Owning the family birthright was all the validity necessary.

Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

That scene would not have happened if Jesus had been eldest. The family birthright would have been His as though He were Joseph. His mother and brothers would have been told, "Jesus is still talking. We'll let you know when he's done."

The Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, so His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go to Judea so Your disciples can see Your works that You are doing. For no one does anything in secret while he’s seeking public recognition. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.”

That scene would not have happened if Jesus had been the eldest. His younger brothers would not have presumed to tell Him what He should do.

 

[Sketcher]

Being sane was not a requirement for respect. Owning the family birthright was all the validity necessary.

Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

That scene would not have happened if Jesus had been eldest. The family birthright would have been His as though He were Joseph. His mother and brothers would have been told, "Jesus is still talking. We'll let you know when he's done."

This presumes that the person in the crowd respected him as such. There were people for and against him.

The Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, so His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go to Judea so Your disciples can see Your works that You are doing. For no one does anything in secret while he’s seeking public recognition. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.”

That scene would not have happened if Jesus had been the eldest. His younger brothers would not have presumed to tell Him what He should do.

But they didn't believe in him. That is not insignificant.

However, let's say he had older siblings. Why aren't they mentioned in the trip to Bethlehem, the consecration at Jerusalem, the escape to Egypt, or the time when he stayed at the temple when he was 12?

 

[Sammy-San]

Society says that teenager is a sexual being, not only having sex but also capable of making his or her own decisions without parental guidance (interference) on abortion, gender identity, physical augmentation, et cetera.

So what part of that is " modern society recognizing that a person doesn't just go straight from being a child to being an adult in biological and mental terms?"

The concept of adolescence. The idea that there's something in between a child and a man.

 

[RDKirk]

The concept of adolescence. The idea that there's something in between a child and a man.

Since you didn't address the question, I'll ask it again:

What part of "not only having sex but also capable of making his or her own decisions without parental guidance (interference) on abortion, gender identity, physical augmentation" is " modern society recognizing that a person doesn't just go straight from being a child to being an adult in biological and mental terms?"

Or are you saying that having sex making his or her own decisions without parental guidance (interference) on abortion, gender identity, and physical augmentation are normal and rightful parts of adolescence, to be accomplished before adulthood?

 

[Sammy-San]

Since you didn't address the question, I'll ask it again:

What part of "not only having sex but also capable of making his or her own decisions without parental guidance (interference) on abortion, gender identity, physical augmentation" is " modern society recognizing that a person doesn't just go straight from being a child to being an adult in biological and mental terms?"

Or are you saying that having sex making his or her own decisions without parental guidance (interference) on abortion, gender identity, and physical augmentation are normal and rightful parts of adolescence, to be accomplished before adulthood?

I wasnt saying anything either way on that, I was discussing the idea that adolescence is a new concept.

 

[miamited]

Being sane was not a requirement for respect. Owning the family birthright was all the validity necessary.

Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

That scene would not have happened if Jesus had been eldest. The family birthright would have been His as though He were Joseph. His mother and brothers would have been told, "Jesus is still talking. We'll let you know when he's done."

The Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, so His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go to Judea so Your disciples can see Your works that You are doing. For no one does anything in secret while he’s seeking public recognition. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.”

That scene would not have happened if Jesus had been the eldest. His younger brothers would not have presumed to tell Him what He should do.

Hi RDkirk,

Well, let's look at your first example. Jesus is among a crowd of people and telling them things about his Father and teaching them of spiritual things. It's likely a small crowd scene as we are told that as Jesus went from city to city the people often gathered to hear what this strange prophet was sayind and doing. The people had never experienced someone like this before and so his presence seems to have generally drawn a crowd of people. But, it's not the senate floor or some hallowed hall where he is talking to them. It's just someone's home that has temporarily been overrun with a crowd of people. So much so that at one point a couple of guys took apart a roof of sheaves to get an ailing friend to the feet of Jesus because they apparently couldn't get through the crowd to just carry the man in through the door.

These are just regular people drawn by curiosity to hear the words of this odd prophet. So, Jesus is speaking to them and doing what he regularly did in such circumstances to use the opportunity to teach the things of God. Jesus' mother and brothers show up and are likely standing at the back of the crowd of people and they begin to tell people in front of them that they would like to get to their son/brother. We're not told why they came. Just that they did. So, they begin to make known to some of the people in the crowd that they want to get to Jesus and this message is apparently passed up through the crowd until it reaches some of the disciples and one of them says to Jesus, "Your mother and brothers are outside to see you."

I seriously doubt that as his family began to ask if they could get to their son/brother, that people would turn to them and remind them that he is the eldest child, as most of them likely didn't even know that, and rebuke them for wanting to speak with one of their family. He was just a man talking and they were just family members trying to get to their son/brother. As I said, this wasn't some staid and somber temple service in which it might have been perceived as disrespectful to interrupt someone who was speaking on the floor. I honestly have serious doubts that the response you have given even came to anyone's mind as being the thing to do in the circumstance. It's merely a small crowd scene that came about in a rather impromptu manner. Jesus often, in his many times of speaking to crowds, was interrupted by questions or things that the disciples said to him. This idea that some legal standing as being an heir meant that everyone always kept this in mind as they listened to him speak and therefore gave some certain respect based on such legal standing regarding interrupting him or telling him that his family was outside trying to reach him doesn't fly with me.

It's a crowd of people. Jesus' family came to see him. At least one of his disciples told him that they were outside asking for him.

In your second example, I think it a fairly great stretch to think that in the day to day living of Jesus and his family that the siblings didn't have just regular conversations just like people have within their families today. Advice given and asked for. Brothers and sisters making known to one another what they think one of them should do regarding a situation. It's my experience that families don't spend every minute of every day dealing with one another in some special way based on some legal standing of being the eldest child.

Your examples seem to assume that in general conversations this idea of legal standing required that crowds of people and family members didn't say certain things or make known their feelings or ideas to the eldest child because of some legal standing. I don't agree. I think that in certain situations the legal standing of the eldest child might have been a consideration, but in general day to day living it wasn't even thought of.

Now, based on this tenuous, at best, understanding of how people would have treated an eldest son, you've come to the conclusion that Jesus couldn't have been the eldest son. I'm not particularly swayed by your argument. I don't think you're appraising the situations properly by which you're supporting your claim of elder status. As I wrote, and what I believe, is that Mary and Joseph were fairly contemporary in age and I base that on the fairly general understanding that love between two young people, and even arranged marriages were generally done between children of similar ages. I honestly don't find any reason or evidence to think that Joseph was some particularly older man who desired to take Mary as his wife. I don't think those who say that such marriages were 'common' in 'those days' are being honest in their assessment of the act of marriage 2,000 years ago. That idea likely stems from 'Fiddler on the Roof' story. Now, that's not to say that such a thing didn't happen sometimes, but I just can't find any evidence that it was the case in this example and I absolutely don't agree that it was some generally common occurrence.

Even our examples of matchmaking through a person getting two people together was usually done for parents who had a son wanting to find a spouse for their son from the available pool of daughters of other parents. Similarly, with arranged marriages that still goes on in some middle eastern countries today, the parents of a son would approach the parents of a daughter and make a commitment between the two sets of parents that their children should be reserved for each other as they grew up.

So, for me, I'm going with Mary and Joseph being fairly contemporary in age and that Mary was a virgin whose first born child was Jesus and that after Jesus was born, according to the Scriptures, Joseph and Mary then shared a fairly regular and normal sex life from which other children were then born to them. The Scriptures tell us that Joseph didn't consummate their marriage until after Jesus' birth. So, yes, Joseph did honor Mary and the fact that her pregnancy was some miraculous gift from God as explained to him by an angel, and held off consummating their marriage. However, after that they lived for whatever time together as fairly normal husband and wife and seem to have obviously had other children according to the Scriptures.

Just my understanding.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[RDKirk]

I wasnt saying anything either way on that, I was discussing the idea that adolescence is a new concept.

Which has been thrown out the window in a very selective fashion in just the last 15 years or so--lots of personal authority with very little accompanying personal responsibility.

In the past (before "adolescence" was invented by social scientists), it was recognized that a "young adult" still needed the resources of an extended family while he or she learned how to do life. Regardless of economic level, by the time a person was a teenager he was gradually pulled into all aspects of adulthood.

These days, they're thrown into adulthood as sexual beings (as early as middle childhood) and allowed to continue to be children in most other ways.

 

[Sammy-San]

Which has been thrown out the window in a very selective fashion in just the last 15 years or so--lots of personal authority with very little accompanying personal responsibility.

In the past (before "adolescence" was invented by social scientists), it was recognized that a "young adult" still needed the resources of an extended family while he or she learned how to do life. Regardless of economic level, by the time a person was a teenager he was gradually pulled into all aspects of adulthood.

These days, they're thrown into adulthood as sexual beings (as early as middle childhood) and allowed to continue to be children in most other ways.

What do you mean by that?

The word teenager wasnt used until the 50s.

 

[Job8]

The Bible never says the age difference between Mary and Joseph

Well then this is just an idle question.