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Jesus was both God & man. He died physically & spiritually paying the full penalty for sin & death. If Jesus didn’t die spiritually, I wonder what being you believe pays our spiritual penalty so that we might be saved?
I gave many verses to support my claim & you haven’t dealt with any of them.What was not presented was any Biblical evidence nor statement of the Christian being "adopted" by Abraham, only your assertion of such,
not to mention that ole Abe was dead centuries before there was a Christian, and was in no position to "adopt" anyone, as God is able to do now.
Abraham is the “father” not the ancestor.Abraham is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised,"
in that he was the predecessor ("father") of all who are made righteous by faith in the promise (Ge 15:6, seed--Christ, Gal 3:16), not by law-keeping.
Abraham was the father of (the "nation" of) those made righteous by faith in the promise (Christ),
as George Washington is the father of this nation, in that both are the first, the predecessor--
Abraham of righteousness by faith in the promise (Christ), and George Washington of elected leadership to the presidency.
The person in Romans 4:12 is Abraham.There is only one way of justification (righteousness); i.e., faith (Ro 4:12).
Abraham has nothing to do with the righteousness of the born-again (Ro 1:17, Ro 3:21-22, Php 3:9),
just as George Washington has nothing to do with the election of today's presidents.
Those for 2000 years, like Abraham, waited for Christ’s day. Christ first had to give up His righteousness (his life) before the Abrahamic covenant had any righteousness to distribute. Christ was the primary intended recipient of the covenant.But Abraham was dead and gone for almost 2000 years before Christ granted his own righteousness to Abraham.
So those who believed in the promise (Christ) for the next almost 2,000 years after Abraham were not made righteous by faith as was Abraham?
So Christ inherited his righteousness from Abraham, but all Abraham's descendants for almost 2,000 years prior to Christ did not?
He got back His own righteousness. When Christ became a curse, God put the iniquity of the entire world upon Him, but His righteousness which he inherited back to himself through God’s promise to Him (in Abraham’s covenant) was more than potent enough to overcome the iniquity of us all.Absolutely no Biblical testimony to such a preposterous scenario. . .where the divine Son of God inherits his righteousness from fallen man.
Galatians 3:9 (NASB95) So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.Where does it say we receive righteousness as an "inheritance" from Abraham?
Everywhere does it say those who are of the faith of Abraham (one doesn't inherit his faith) receive righteousness by faith as did Abraham (Ro 4:1-11).
That is the point Calvin & Arminius got wrong. They both believed this erroneous statement. The promise was made to Abraham, so the fulfillment of the promise is the fulfillment of Abraham’s covenant. Faith doesn’t qualify (directly) for righteousness. Kinship qualifies for righteousness because the promise was made to Abraham & to his descendants. So to receive what was promised to Abraham, you must be either Abraham or his descendant. But it is not the physical descendants, but the spiritual descendants - those who walk in the steps of faith of Abraham to whom the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached, and whom believed the gospel 2,000 years before the Holy Spirit would be given to indwell the hearts of man. Abraham believed while uncircumcised in heart or flesh.No, I am saying what I said, that Abraham was not the conduit, means, cause, etc. of being in Christ.
Only faith in Christ (the promise) is the conduit, means, cause, etc. of being in Christ.
You stated the promise had no power. I argued there was much power in the promise. You seem to be conceding the point.It's not about the power of the promise. It's about God's condition for the promise. . .righteousness is conditioned on faith in Christ.
If it were simply about the infinite power of the promise, why attach a condition of faith to the promise of righteousness?
Yes. However not only are they redeemed, but they are also given righteousness & eternal life.gup20
So are the ones He died for exonerated, saved from the penalty of sin and death by His death for them alone ?
Previously addressed. . .I gave many verses to support my claim & you haven’t dealt with any of them.
Previously addressed. . .Abraham is the “father” not the ancestor.
The Jews certainly had words & concepts for ancestors, for example:
26:45 (NASB95) ‘But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the LORD.’”
Deuteronomy 19:14 (NASB95) “You shall not move your neighbor’s boundary mark, which the ancestors have set, in your inheritance which you will inherit in the land that the LORD your God gives you to possess.
But Abraham isn’t their ancestor, but their father.
The person in Romans 4:12 is Abraham.
Romans 1:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB95) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Previously addressed. . .Being Abraham’s sons is what qualifies you for Abraham’s blessing.
Galatians 3:14 (NASB95) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Luke 19:9 (NASB95)
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:16 (NASB95)
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Are you paying attention yet? Since
Previously addressed. . .it was Gods righteousness promised & given to Abraham,
Previously addressed. . .we who are the sons of Abraham inherit God’s righteousness from him, not his own.
Previously addressed. . .You stated the promise had no power. I argued there was much power in the promise. You seem to be conceding the point.
Are you sure about that?You may agree with Clare, but her arguments are very weak - some were just pure nonsense.
Here is an example of why the list above is meaningless:Are you sure about that?
You have not Biblically demonstrated in
your post #163 any error in
my post #161, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #160, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #158, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #154, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #150, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #149, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #146, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #144, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #141, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #140, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #139, Biblically demonstrating the error of
your post #138, above.
Previously litigated. . .will not be litigating it again.Here is an example of why the list above is meaningless:
View attachment 330825
When the scripture says "those with faith are the sons of Abraham" and then you say that is "irrelevant to adoption by Abraham"
So you believe everyone Christ died for is saved ?Yes. However not only are they redeemed, but they are also given righteousness & eternal life.
I know that Calvin said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all humans will be resurrected from Adam’s universal judgement, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.So you believe everyone Christ died for is saved ?
The entirely of your argument (one passage without context):Previously litigated. . .will not be litigating it again.
(See post #139, to which your response in post #140 did not Biblically demonstrate any error.)
My response (including the passage you referenced with its context specifically indicating adoption):Darn!. . .one can't even buy a compliment these days!
Please present the text where we are adopted by Abraham, when the text of Gal 3:29 states that in Christ we are the seed (descendants) of Abraham. One's seed is not adopted.
Your counter (lacking any Biblical support whatsoever):Gal 3:6-9 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Are you physically descended from Abraham or counted as a descendant of Abraham by faith?
Gal 3:29 NASB95 - 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.4:1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
Gal 4:21-31 NASB95 - 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
Gen 17:4-7 NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.
Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
As you can see your arguments were entirely insufficient. I presented 5 passages in context with nearly 40 verses in support of my argument which you failed to deal with as your rebuttal asserted only a restatement of your position without any further Biblical support.I am counted as a descendant of Abraham by faith in Christ, which places me in Christ, who is the descendant of Abraham and, thereby, makes me a descendant of Abraham.
My being a descendant of Abraham has nothing to do with Abraham, and everything to do with being in Christ, who is the descendant of Abraham.
I can't find the part where we are adopted, I see only that those of faith in Christ are his seed (descendants) because they are in Christ, who is Abraham's seed.
Seed is not adopted.
Conclusion:
You have presented no Biblical demonstration of NT believers being adopted by Abraham.
And which passage (Gal 4:4-6) you misrepresent above by omitting that the adoption is by God, not by Abraham,The entirely of your argument (one passage without context):
My response (including the passage you referenced with its context specifically indicating adoption):
Contraire. . .as demonstrated in post #141, Gal 4:4-6 is everywhere about adoption by God, with Abraham nowhere being mentioned.Your counter (lacking any Biblical support whatsoever):
Previously litigated. . .will not be litigating it again.As you can see your arguments were entirely insufficient. I presented 5 passages in context with nearly 40 verses in support of my argument which you failed to deal with as your rebuttal asserted only a restatement of your position without any further Biblical support.
I appreciate your desire in theory to stay true to the scripture as the source of truth, but your arguments lack the requisite substantive Biblical support. Convince me with scripture, not Calvinist dogma. As you can see, I’m certainly willing to analyze the scriptures you offer in support of your argument. I don’t consider myself the ultimate knowledge on scripture nor infallible, and am willing to consider any solid, Biblical argument, but you’ve given me too little to go on.
Who's Calvin?Ah… as I suspected. You deny the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is the antichrist spirit which rules Calvin & his followers.
Who's Calvin?
Juan, the spicy Latin brother to John who actually wrote all his theology for him.The kid who had Hobbes as his imaginary friend.
You are in contradiction.I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection.
The statement was:gup20
You are in contradiction.
The statement was:
I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection.
gup20
You are in contradiction.
Actually, I meant exactly what I said. If you read it carefully, you will note that it is not "ultimate reconciliation." As a result of Christ's appearing, ALL will be resurrected, the righteous and wicked alike. This is because a SINGLE RIGHTEOUS PERSON makes God's universal, corporate judgement of Adam unjust. Until Christ appeared, God's corporate judgement was just because all had sinned, and none were righteous. But because a single righteous man appeared, God has to Abolish Adam's corporate judgement (repeal it) and do individual judgements in its place. As soon as Adam's judgement is repealed, it necessitates the resurrection of everyone who died under that judgement, and viola - universal resurrection. But not so fast - that doesn't mean all are reconciled to God - for then they are judged as individuals and for some there will be a second death and eternal torment and contempt in the lake of fire.What should have been said was: "Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection is available to all."
Scripture doesn't say all that, though.Actually, I meant exactly what I said. If you read it carefully, you will note that it is not "ultimate reconciliation." As a result of Christ's appearing, ALL will be resurrected, the righteous and wicked alike. This is because a SINGLE RIGHTEOUS PERSON makes God's universal, corporate judgement of Adam unjust. Until Christ appeared, God's corporate judgement was just because all had sinned, and none were righteous. But because a single righteous man appeared, God has to Abolish Adam's corporate judgement (repeal it) and do individual judgements in its place. As soon as Adam's judgement is repealed, it necessitates the resurrection of everyone who died under that judgement, and viola - universal resurrection. But not so fast - that doesn't mean all are reconciled to God - for then they are judged as individuals and for some there will be a second death and eternal torment and contempt in the lake of fire.
In the second judgement - The Great White Throne judgement - Christ's righteousness will be applied individually to those who believed in Christ. Christ's righteousness is not applied to Adam's death judgement (the death we all experience now) because it will at some point be abolished.
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