What was Jesus’ purpose if sins were forgiven before His Incarnation?

Torah Keeper · Dec 10, 2021

Lots of reasons. Here are some:

He gave us a new way of salvation.

He gave us an example of how to live.

He proved it is possible to never sin. And He is the only person who is really sinless. Babies will sin if they get older.

He taught us many things.

He restored the faith, bringing us closer to Yahweh. Because Judaism was corrupted in that time.

He performed many miracles.

He fulfilled many prophecies.

He changed the world to a better place.

jamiec · Dec 10, 2021

RDKirk said:
God was always the king. The Jews knew that. That was nothing new. If the gospel--that is, the "good news"--isn't relative to us and isn't even news, there is no point to the New Covenant.

Agreed, that the Kingship of God was anything but new to the Jews.

What was new, was the “coming” of the Kingdom/Kingship/Reign of God to replace the “prince of the power of the air” so as to “cast out the prince of this world” as per John 12.31 & Luke 10.18. IOW, the “newness” lay in the linking of (1) the Kingship of God with (2) the eschatological casting-down of satan, and (3) the Messiahship of the King who casts out satan, with (4) the Person and works of Jesus of Nazareth. And (5) in the results of all that, which include “the renewal of all things” - also an eschatological reality.

How is that not Good News ?

IOW, Jesus is the One in Whom the Kingdom of God is present, so that it can be made present everywhere else on Earth - exactly as is asked in the Lord’s Prayer.

The fact that God was recognised as King by the Jews is of course well known. But it is only part of the story.

STM that that deals with the last of the problems you mention. It certainly is addressed to all mankind, not least because the Kingship of God exercised by Jesus extends over all mankind, and is everlasting.

Fervent · Jan 3, 2022

So that through Him we may die to the law and be made alive to God.

Forgiveness is not something purchased, it is graciously given.

msortwell · Jan 5, 2022

Much of the following was taken from gotquestions.org, but I have embellished.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one’s faith for salvation has always been God [in what He has promised]. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer’s faith. God’s requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Please note that the promise in Gen 3:15 invovled a seed. And the promise regarding that seed was still part of the religion/faith of God's people from the time of Adam to that of Moses. Between those times came that of Abraham when promise enlarged upon His promise regarding a seed.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. [Personally, I find Gen 17:7 to be more to the point - God promises to be God to a seed of Abraham]. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

Salvation has always been by grace through faith in the seed promised in Gen 3:15, Gen 17:7, and clarified in Galatians 3.

Galatians 3:15-17
Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one [Gen 17:7], "And to your Seed," who is Christ. NKJV

Galatians 3:26-29
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. NKJV

The fact that the price for the sins of God's children in the OT would not be paid until later, is of no significance. It was determined before the foundation of the world that God the Son would pay the necessary price. We do not see it as inconsistent with God's justice to allow sinners to live (the second death is deferred). Similarly, the payment of sin-debt by the kinsman-redeemer (Christ) can happen later.

anetazo · Apr 8, 2023

The blood ordinances were done away with. The law is still thier. If someone commits murder, that person will pay for it. Its capital punishment. Jesus was crucified, so Christian people can by faith, repent sins to God and be forgiven. Matthew chapter 5:17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets ; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Try stealing from your employer or store. That person will pay for it. God did not do away with the laws. The blood ordinances are done away with. Get the picture.

Gup20 · Apr 8, 2023

Christian faith was founded with Abraham's faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. God promised righteousness to Abraham and his seed or descendants. That "seed" specifically was Jesus. Those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham had are considered his descendants and heirs of the righteousness he was promised. Where did that righteousness come from? Jesus. Jesus had to come so that the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness by faith would have the righteousness promised to Abraham and his descendants and could be fulfilled.

Gal 3:6-9, 16 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," that is, Christ.

Gen 15:5-6 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your SEED be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gen 17:4-7 NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your SEED after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your SEED after you.

Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham had, we qualify as his descendants and become heirs of the righteousness God promised (credited) him. Without Christ, there is no righteousness to feed into this covenant.

ralliann · Apr 8, 2023

anetazo said:
The blood ordinances were done away with. The law is still thier. If someone commits murder, that person will pay for it. Its capital punishment. Jesus was crucified, so Christian people can by faith, repent sins to God and be forgiven. Matthew chapter 5:17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets ; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Try stealing from your employer or store. That person will pay for it. God did not do away with the laws. The blood ordinances are done away with. Get the picture.

The carnal commandments are disannulled.
The carnal statutes
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Clare73 · Apr 8, 2023

Gup20 said:
Christian faith was founded with Abraham's faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. God promised righteousness to Abraham and his seed

Please refresh my memory as to where I can find this promise in Scripture.

Gup20 said:
or descendants. That "seed" specifically was Jesus. Those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham had are considered his descendants and heirs of the righteousness he was promised. Where did that righteousness come from? Jesus. Jesus had to come so that the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness by faith would have the righteousness promised to Abraham and his descendants and could be fulfilled.

Circular. . .Jesus had to come because he was the Seed (Gal 3:16) that was promised (Ge 5:5).

Gup20 said:
Gal 3:6-9, 16 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," that is, Christ.

Gen 15:5-6 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your SEED be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gen 17:4-7 NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your SEED after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your SEED after you.

Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham had, we qualify as his descendants and become heirs of the righteousness God promised (credited) him. Without Christ, there is no righteousness to feed into this covenant.

The righteousness is not in the covenant, the righteousness is in Christ and is imputed (Ro 4:1-11) by faith to those in that covenant by faith.

Gup20 · Apr 8, 2023

Clare73 said:
Please refresh my memory as to where I can find this promise in Scripture.

Gen 15:5-6, 8-10, 17-18 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. ... 8 He said, "O Lord GOD, how may I know that I will possess it?" 9 So He said to him, "Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds. ... 17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, [there appeared] a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your seed I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 17:4-7 NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.

To reckon something to someone is a "credit" or a "promise" as Paul translates it in Romans 4.

Rom 4:9-11 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

So how do we qualify as Abraham's descendants so we can inherit that promise of righteousness? by having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham had:

Gal 3:6-9, 16 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," that is, Christ.

Rom 4:12-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

We are co-heirs with Jesus by being adopted as Abraham's descendants. Being adopted as a descendant of Abraham is how we become "known" by God. God will tell those who do works in His name to depart, He never knew them.. but the adopted He knows.

Gal 4:5-9 NASB95 - 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Rom 8:15-17 NASB95 - 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]

We are adopted as descendants of Abraham when we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which he had.

Brightfame52 · Apr 8, 2023

Gup20 said:
Christian faith was founded with Abraham's faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. God promised righteousness to Abraham and his seed or descendants. That "seed" specifically was Jesus. Those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham had are considered his descendants and heirs of the righteousness he was promised. Where did that righteousness come from? Jesus. Jesus had to come so that the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness by faith would have the righteousness promised to Abraham and his descendants and could be fulfilled.

Gal 3:6-9, 16 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," that is, Christ.

Gen 15:5-6 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your SEED be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gen 17:4-7 NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your SEED after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your SEED after you.

Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham had, we qualify as his descendants and become heirs of the righteousness God promised (credited) him. Without Christ, there is no righteousness to feed into this covenant.

View attachment 329912

In the purpose and mind of God Jesus was slain for the sins of the seed of Abraham from the foundation of the world, He didn't have to wait for a certain date in time to accept Jesus sacrifice. Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He was set forth in the purpose of God before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Noah looked for and believed in the same righteousness as Abraham did 2 Pet 2:5

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Clare73 · Apr 8, 2023

Gup20 said:
Gen 15:5-6, 8-10, 17-18 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. ...

"Reckoning" is not a promise, reckoning is crediting/imputing/accounting.

Gup20 said:
8 He said, "O Lord GOD, how may I know that I will possess it?" 9 So He said to him, "Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds. ... 17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, [there appeared] a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your seed I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 17:4-7 NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.

To reckon something to someone is a "credit" or a "promise" as Paul translates it in Romans 4.

Rom 4:9-11 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

So how do we qualify as Abraham's descendants so we can inherit that promise of righteousness? by having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham had:

Gal 3:6-9, 16 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," that is, Christ.

Rom 4:12-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

We are co-heirs with Jesus by being adopted as Abraham's descendants. Being adopted as a descendant of Abraham is how we become "known" by God. God will tell those who do works in His name to depart, He never knew them.. but the adopted He knows.

Gal 4:5-9 NASB95 - 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Rom 8:15-17 NASB95 - 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.

We are adopted as descendants of Abraham when we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which he had.

We are adopted as children of God when we are born again (Jn 1:12-13).

It's not about faith = child of Abraham,
its about faith = son of God (Jn 1:12-13).

Gup20 · Apr 8, 2023

Clare73 said:
It's not about faith = child of Abraham,
its about faith = son of God (Jn 1:12-13).

Gal 3:26, 29 NASB95 - 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Clare73 · Apr 8, 2023

Gup20 said:
Gal 3:26, 29 NASB95 - 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Being Abraham's descendant depends on being a son of God before you can inherit God's promise (Ro 4:16) of an everlasting possession; i.e., eternal life, to Abraham, who is the father of God's people, the church, which is both OT and OT saints.

Gup20 · Apr 8, 2023

Brightfame52 said:
In the purpose and mind of God Jesus was slain for the sins of the seed of Abraham from the foundation of the world, He didn't have to wait for a certain date in time to accept Jesus sacrifice. Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He was set forth in the purpose of God before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Sure, God is outside of time and holds it in His hand as we would a pencil. He exists in the present at all points in time and space simultaneously.

We, on the other hand, experience the flow of time in a linear fashion. For example, Jesus said:

Jhn 8:56-58 NASB95 - 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Brightfame52 said:
Noah looked for and believed in the same righteousness as Abraham did 2 Pet 2:5

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Are you a Noahide? I could accept that Noah himself looked forward to the righteousness of Christ in some fashion, but I do not see how Noah's covenant gets applied to those with faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ as I can with Abraham. God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham (Gal 3:8, 16, Gen 15:5-6) and promised that righteousness to his descendants (Gal 3:9, 14, 18, 29, Rom 4:11, 13, 16-17)... those with the same faith in the gospel which Abraham had. I see no such covenant of righteousness through faith with the descendants of Noah. Noah's story could certainly be allegorically referencing God's rescue of those who follow Him, but I see no explicit covenant promises like I do with Abraham, and God calls Abraham the "Father of Many Nations" and Paul says Abraham is the "father of all who believe."

Gup20 · Apr 8, 2023

Clare73 said:
Being Abraham's descendant depends on being a son of God before you can inherit God's promise of an everlasting possession (Ro 4:16); i.e., eternal life, to Abraham, who is the father of God's people, the church, which is both OT and OT saints.

I agree with you. If you look at the graphic above, being a descendant of Abraham is also dependent upon faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Being a descendant of God or of Abraham are both dependent upon faith in Jesus Christ. The same faith accomplishes both collectively referred to as "adoption." One is a spiritual result of faith and one is a physical result of faith. But make no mistake, adoption (both of God and of Abraham) is the direct result of faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ (or put simply "faith in Jesus Christ").

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is God's pledge of the full inheritance to come after the resurrection. I think you would agree that we do not have our full inheritance yet while we live in mortal flesh.. but only once we get our new, resurrected, immortal bodies will we have our full inheritance.

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

Rom 4:11 NASB95 - 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Act 11:16-17 NASB95 - 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

Also consider that Ezekiel 36's prophecy of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit makes several references to Abraham's covenant.

Eze 36:24-28 NASB95 - 24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Notice also in Luke 1 where God is talking to Elizabeth and Zacharias and Mary and Joseph about Jesus and John the Baptist, God prophesies through Mary about Jesus and says:

Luk 1:55, 73 NASB95 - 55 As He spoke to our fathers, To Abraham and his descendants forever." ...

And then later the Holy Spirit comes on Zacharias and he prophesies:

Luke 1:73 The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,

Jesus the Messiah was a fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant.

Brightfame52 · Apr 8, 2023

Gup20 said:
Sure, God is outside of time and holds it in His hand as we would a pencil. He exists in the present at all points in time and space simultaneously.

We, on the other hand, experience the flow of time in a linear fashion. For example, Jesus said:

Jhn 8:56-58 NASB95 - 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Are you a Noahide? I could accept that Noah himself looked forward to the righteousness of Christ in some fashion, but I do not see how Noah's covenant gets applied to those with faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ as I can with Abraham. God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham (Gal 3:8, 16, Gen 15:5-6) and promised that righteousness to his descendants (Gal 3:9, 14, 18, 29, Rom 4:11, 13, 16-17)... those with the same faith in the gospel which Abraham had. I see no such covenant of righteousness through faith with the descendants of Noah. Noah's story could certainly be allegorically referencing God's rescue of those who follow Him, but I see no explicit covenant promises like I do with Abraham, and God calls Abraham the "Father of Many Nations" and Paul says Abraham is the "father of all who believe."

Christ was slain in the Mind and Purpose of God before time began. So in Gods Eternal Purpose those He died for were already saved, and during their lifetime they will be called into the fellowship of their Salvation. The elect are saved by Grace and Purpose before they are born and called 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God not only preached the Gospel to Abraham, He preached it to Adam and Eve Gen 3:15 and no doubt Abel who scripture says was righteous and was a martyr for Christ Heb 11:4

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Abels sacrifice looked to Christ ! matt 23:34-35

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

No doubt Abel was murdered by his brother for his faith in Christ.

Rescued One · Apr 9, 2023

Fascinating thread. I'm not sure I understand it though having never heard all this before. Does the following fit in?

John 14
15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

IoanC · Apr 9, 2023

Thought is different than deed. Planning is different than acting. Christ died and ressurected, so that we don't have to, except mysteriously. Ever since Christ resurrected, death, sin, suffering are no longer possible because the Christian is totally transformed and lives through the Grace of The Holy Spirit. Pentecost and The Ascension produce even higher, holier modes of e existence.

Clare73 · Apr 9, 2023

Gup20 said:
Gen 15:5-6, 8-10, 17-18 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. ... 8 He said, "O Lord GOD, how may I know that I will possess it?" 9 So He said to him, "Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds. ... 17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, [there appeared] a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your seed I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 17:4-7 NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.

To reckon something to someone is a "credit" or a "promise" as Paul translates it in Romans 4.

Rom 4:9-11 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

So how do we qualify as Abraham's descendants so we can inherit that promise of righteousness? by having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham had:

Gal 3:6-9, 16 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," that is, Christ.

Rom 4:12-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

We are co-heirs with Jesus by being adopted as Abraham's descendants. Being adopted as a descendant of Abraham is how we become "known" by God. God will tell those who do works in His name to depart, He never knew them.. but the adopted He knows.

Gal 4:5-9 NASB95 - 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Rom 8:15-17 NASB95 - 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]

We are adopted as descendants of Abraham

Those in Christ are not adopted as descendants of Abraham, they are descendants of Abraham by being in Christ, the descendant of Abraham (Gal 3:29). Nowhere does the NT present us as "adopted" sons of Abraham. Rather
we are descendants of Abraham when we believe in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) proclaimed in the gospel,
by which faith we are saved from condemnation and are made adopted sons of God (Jn 1:12-13), not of Abraham.

Gup20 said:
when we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which he had.

If you are referring to Abraham's "faith in the gospel" preached in advance to him (Gal 3:18), it did not save him, just as faith in the land promise did not save him. He was saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Abraham's "faith in the gospel" (Gal 3:18) of Gen 12:3 was that "all nations would be blessed through him."
There was no Jesus Christ (Seed, Gal 3:16) promised in the "gospel announced in advance to Abraham" (Gal 3:18), and no righteousness accounted to Abraham's "faith in the gospel" of Gen 12:3.
It was some eight years later when "the gospel of Jesus Christ" was credited to him as righteousness
by his faith in "the promise of Seed" (Gen 15:5, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

So Abraham's "faith in the gospel" preached in advance (Gal 3:18) did not save him
And we are saved only by faith in Jesus Christ, just as he was by faith in the promise (Gen 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

Brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2023

Clare73 said:
Those in Christ are not adopted as descendants of Abraham, they are descendants of Abraham by being in Christ, the descendant of Abraham (Gal 3:29). Nowhere does the NT present us as "adopted" sons of Abraham. Rather
we are descendants of Abraham when we believe in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) proclaimed in the gospel,
by which faith we are saved from condemnation and are made adopted sons of God (Jn 1:12-13), not of Abraham.

If you are referring to Abraham's "faith in the gospel" preached in advance to him (Gal 3:18), it did not save him, just as faith in the land promise did not save him. He was saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Abraham's "faith in the gospel" (Gal 3:18) of Gen 12:3 was that "all nations would be blessed through him."
There was no Jesus Christ (Seed, Gal 3:16) promised in the "gospel announced in advance to Abraham" (Gal 3:18), and no righteousness accounted to Abraham's "faith in the gospel" of Gen 12:3.
It was some eight years later when "the gospel of Jesus Christ" was credited to him as righteousness
by his faith in "the promise of Seed" (Gen 15:5, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

So Abraham's "faith in the gospel" preached in advance (Gal 3:18) did not save him
And we are saved only by faith in Jesus Christ, just as he was by faith in the promise (Gen 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

So you dont believe that the Gospel preached to Abraham Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Had anything to do with Christ dying for their sins ?

What was Jesus’ purpose if sins were forgiven before His Incarnation?

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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