What was finished?

[Charlesinflorida]

Charles i will prepare a rebuttal if you so wish but lets set some ground rules.. First would be we use both testaments.. Second that when one scripture is shown lets discuss that one.. I am not suggesting a build a doctrine on one scripture either. I must say that i would like to do this same debate on the messianic forum.. Because i feel confident that what i believe is right..

I have a meal to help with for the poor, and a sermon on esther to study for.. So my rebuttal may take a while..

It would be good to discuss this verse at a time. Let me know when you will be available.

You are a good man to do these Mitsvot, preparing a meal for the poor.
I noticed that you said you were preparing a sermon. Are you then a minister in the charismatic churches?

CIF

 

[Jim B]

I look at the covenants (Old and New) as two contracts.

The terms of fulfillment of the old contract was works-based: “Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD ,” Lev. 18.5. The final and inevitable result was that man was unable to keep his end of the contract but it had to remain in force until it was fulfilled. A new contract could not be mediated so long as the old remained in effect. Since man could not do it, God in His infinite grace and mercy did it for us in Jesus Christ. That is why Christ had to become a man – man’s part of the contract could only be fulfilled by a man.

So, Christ fulfilled the demands of the Law and thus ended it (“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth,” Rom 10.4) and thereby instituted a new covenant, not based on works but on faith (sole fide).

When Christ said “It is finished,” I believe that it was the Old Covenant of Law that was finished.

What do you think?

\o/

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Jim.B.

That would mean that the promises of the old covenant are also finished. So you can kiss good-bye to the Kingdom with Yeshua as King on Davids throne, the Gentiles becoming part of Gods people, the time when the law goes forth from Jerusalem, and when a man will live to be a full old age, and if he dies at 100 he will be considered an infant or under a curse, a time when righteousness reigns in the earth, when the lion shall lay down with the lamb and a child play on the hole of an asp and not fear.

Jim, I think you are giving up too much, just to say (believe) that the old covenant is done. In the verse you quote above, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes". "End" does not mean, to abolished. Look it up, it is Greek Telos, which means "the thing at which something is pointed, the object of something else, or the prize,or goal." It seems that you did not believe me when I told you this last time. I am sure you must own a strongs concordance, Yes?

The Old covenant was not works based, (at least not until the spiritual decay of the second temple herodian ear). Prior to that no one would ever think of the law as something you do to ear standing with God. The commandment you quote,“Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD ,” Lev. 18.5. In the Hebrew it is much different. It means in them you shall find good living". The Rabbis explained it this way; by following Gods instruction you will live well and have meaningful lives and the Lord will extend your days. Your society will be orderly and peaceful.

This is not earning ones salvation.. The Laws of God are almost entirely given to provide man a means to have a blessed, prosperous, and peaceful existance here on earth, and have almost nothing to do with salvation. (The exception being idolatry, or rejection of God) Salvation in the O.T. is through repentence and faith in Gods forgiveness every single place and time. It never changes from that.

If you want works salvation there is a church that gives a sinner a list of things to say, and payers to repeat X number of times in order to be saved. That is works based salvation.

Jim, I am sorry to say this, but I am shocked at some of the things you say. Show me one place where a man in the OT is directed by God to do any works to be saved even after sinning. You will not find it. You will only find repentence and starting over forgiven.

CIF

 

[Svt4Him]

Thank you saint...
But then, just to carry that forward, if you can tell me...
if it was finished.... then why did He have to die?

Because without death there can be no payment. But let me go down a trail that I'm not totally sure of. Jesus came to seek and save THAT which was lost. What was lost? I believe, although I'm not willing to die for this, that communication between God and man, directly, like when God walked with Adam. When Jesus died, the curtain into the Holy of Holies was ripped. So maybe His work on earth, as a man was finished, and communication was now open.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Because without death there can be no payment...

But that is my question friend.... if death is required to "make payment in full"... then what was He talking about when He said "...it is finished..."?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Yeshua had to die to insure the resurrection, to overcome the power of sin AND death so that he would be the first-fruits offering, that those who follow will also share in the resurrection. If Yeshua was not raised up, neither shall we. Before he can be raised up, he must first die.

CIF

Thanks...
So when He said "...it is finshed..." on the cross, He was not talking about the entire plan of God for our salvation.
This is one of the things that I was trying to get someone to confirm for me. I have known this... but many out there insist that when Jesus said "...it is finished..." that was the end of His redemptive work on our behalf. As you say, it was not the end. He did have to die and raise from the dead so that we too would have newness of life... His life.

This is something that many people miss!
Dear readers. If you do not get anything from this thread other than this, understand that the cross and the sufferings of Jesus did not obtain eternal life for us! The cross and the sufferings of Jesus took care of all the individual sins of all mankind. But if Jesus had stopped there and decided He did not want to die, nobody would have ever been born again. We would not have the new birth. When Jesus said "...it was finished..." He was talking about being made a curse for us and having the law nailed to the cross. It was His resurrection that obtained for us the new birth and the ability to be children of God. If He had not died and been raised from the dead, we would only have been hosed down children of the devil. The new birht is what has enabled us to not only be children of God, but it has enabled us to walk as children of God.... holy and righteous. The cross dealt with the law and sins, but the resurection dealt with spiritual death and eternal life.
Dids

 

[Jim B]

Jim, I think you are giving up too much, just to say (believe) that the old covenant is done. In the verse you quote above, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes". "End" does not mean, to abolished. Look it up, it is Greek Telos, which means "the thing at which something is pointed, the object of something else, or the prize,or goal." It seems that you did not believe me when I told you this last time. I am sure you must own a strongs concordance, Yes?

CIF

I am afraid W. E. Vine disagrees with your definition, CIF.

I have clipped this from Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words Online:

End, Ending (telos)
Signifies (a) "the limit," either at which a person or thing ceases to be what he or it was up to that point, or at which previous activities were ceased, 2Co. 3:13; 1Pe. 4:7; (b) "the final issue or result" of a state or process, e.g., Lu. 1:33; in Ro. 10:4, Christ is described as "the end of the Law unto righteousness to everyone that believeth;" this is best explained by Ga. 3:23-26*.

*Galatians 3.23-24
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I am afraid W. E. Vine disagrees with your definition, CIF.

I have clipped this from Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words Online:

End, Ending (telos)
Signifies (a) "the limit," either at which a person or thing ceases to be what he or it was up to that point, or at which previous activities were ceased, 2Co. 3:13; 1Pe. 4:7; (b) "the final issue or result" of a state or process, e.g., Lu. 1:33; in Ro. 10:4, Christ is described as "the end of the Law unto righteousness to everyone that believeth;" this is best explained by Ga. 3:23-26*..

Well Jim Here is the strongs:

5056 telos { tel’-os}

from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); TDNT - 8:49,1161; n n

AV - end 35, custom 3, uttermost 1, finally 1, ending 1, by (one’s) continual + 1519 1; 42

GK - 5465 { tevlo" }

1) end
1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
1b) the end
1b1) the last in any succession or series
1b2) eternal
1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.


An error made by all major English versions and by most commentators—and one with profound antisemitic implications even when none are intended—is the rendering here of the Greek word “telos” as “end,” in the sense of “termination.” The King James Version is ambiguous—in it the verse reads, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth”; this leaves to the reader the decision whether “end” means “termination” or “purpose” (as in “the end justifies the means”). However, the Messiah has not brought the Law to an end, nor is he the termination of the Law as a way to righteousness. The Torah continues. It is eternal. God’s Torah, properly understood as the very teaching which Yeshua upholds (1C 9:21&N, Ga 6:2&N), remains the one and only way to righteousness—although it is Yeshua the Messiah through whom the Torah’s righteousness comes. For the Good News that righteousness is grounded in trust is proclaimed already in the Torah itself; this is the central point of 9:30–10:21.


It therefore follows, Sha’ul says, that a person who has the trust in God which the Torah itself requires will—precisely because he has this trust, which forms the basic ground of all obedience to the Torah (1:5)—understand and respond to the Gospel by also trusting in God’s Messiah Yeshua. It is in this way and only in this way that he will be deemed righteous in the sight of the God he wants to serve and whose Torah he wants to obey. Only by believing in Yeshua will he be able to obey the Torah. By disbelieving in Yeshua he will be disobeying the Torah. This is because the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers the Torah’s righteousness, which is God’s righteousness, to everyone who trusts.

David Stern Jewish New Testament comentary.