what was an anabaptist ? surprised ?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

[SIZE=-1]"... through the teachings of early Anabaptists ..."
www.sabbath-day.net/

[/SIZE]Would it surprise you to know that Jesus never once even mentioned the first day of the week? .........

However, with so many people saying so many different things,.......
The intention of this web site is not to reveal the truth about the Sabbath but to point you to a choice of web sites that will help you find what the truth really is. In the top left column and at the bottom of this page, you will find links to many good web sites, not only on the Sabbath, but also on other topics that relate to the Sabbath day such as the ceremonial law and the Ten Commandments. If you want all the facts on the Sabbath, select Sabbath Truth or Gods Sabbath Truth.

 

[ACADEMIC]

[SIZE=-1]"... through the teachings of early Anabaptists ..."
www.sabbath-day.net/

[/SIZE]Would it surprise you to know that Jesus never once even mentioned the first day of the week? .........

However, with so many people saying so many different things,.......
The intention of this web site is not to reveal the truth about the Sabbath but to point you to a choice of web sites that will help you find what the truth really is. In the top left column and at the bottom of this page, you will find links to many good web sites, not only on the Sabbath, but also on other topics that relate to the Sabbath day such as the ceremonial law and the Ten Commandments. If you want all the facts on the Sabbath, select Sabbath Truth or Gods Sabbath Truth.

Rom 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"...One very controversial subject among Christians today is Gods Seventh Day Sabbath. Some Christians are not even aware the Sabbath is Saturday.
The Bible tells us clearly in Daniel that a persecuting power would change God’s laws of which it did – the Seventh Day Sabbath became the first day Sabbath without God’s approval....."
"..."
"This change to the Sabbath came about over hundreds of years and by the death of millions and millions of Christians. This is another fact that most Christians are unaware of."
sabbath-day.net

 

[ACADEMIC]

"...One very controversial subject among Christians today is Gods Seventh Day Sabbath. Some Christians are not even aware the Sabbath is Saturday.
The Bible tells us clearly in Daniel that a persecuting power would change God’s laws of which it did – the Seventh Day Sabbath became the first day Sabbath without God’s approval....."
"..."
"This change to the Sabbath came about over hundreds of years and by the death of millions and millions of Christians. This is another fact that most Christians are unaware of."
sabbath-day.net

In light of the passge I posted, so what?

 

[MrJim]

There is a group of anabaptists that do saturday worship--seems like it's some branch off the German Baptists.

I would go along with ACADEMIC's POV. Special Sabbath worship is fine-if I was to stumble onto a church I liked that "did it" on a saturday it wouldn't bother me a bit. But mandatory? Well, the 7th Adventist forum is just down the road.

 

[MrJim]

OK yeshuaslavejeff, list some original sources for your statement that the original anabaptists observed Saturday as the "true sabbath".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Two Anabaptists were led by Bible study to a particularly perilous conclusion. Both were former priests who had sacrificed the priesthood to become first Lutherans, and then Anabaptists. One of these was Oswald Glait. The other was Andreas Fischer.
Around 1527 Glait and Fischer were astonished to read in the Bible that the weekly day God wanted men to keep holy was not Sunday, the first day of the week, but Saturday, the seventh day. When they began to teach this, theologians were sent to persuade them to abandon what they called the "Jewish Sabbath."
Glait and Fischer replied that the Bible calls the seventh day "the sabbath of the Lord thy God" (Exodus 20:8-1 1), not the 'Jewish" Sabbath. They showed from the Bible that the Sabbath was given at Creation to our first parents as a blessing for the entire human race (Genesis 2:1-3). They quoted Christ: "The Sabbath was made for man" (Mark 2:27), not merely for Jews.
The theologians contended that Jesus brought the Sabbath to an end. In return Glait and Fischer quoted Christ again: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law... Till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished" (Matthew 5:17, 18, R.S.V.).
When the theologians suggested that the apostles abolished the Sabbath after Christ's death, Glait and Fischer quoted the apostle James: "Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10). They quoted the apostle Paul: By faith "we establish (not destroy) the law" (Romans 3:31); and the apostle John, Those who have "the faith of Jesus," "keep (not break) the commandments of God" (Revelation 14:12). When the theologians asked Glait and Fischer to submit to the church's judgment, they replied that their consciences were captive to the Word of God.
It was a dangerous stand. A person who took it could scarcely hope to live out his natural life. In 1529 Mr. and Mrs. Andreas Fischer, as Sabbatarian Anabaptists, were sentenced to death-she by drowning, he by hanging. Mrs. Fischer was drowned, but-as we saw above-while her husband was being hanged, he fell to the ground and escaped.
Not forever, unfortunately. After a dangerous decade of bravely traveling to share the Sabbath and fortify the faithful, Fischer was seized by the soldiers of some wretched robber knight, dragged into his castle, and executed-successfully this time-by being hurled from the top of a wall.
Oswald Glait, incidentally, survived many adventures in a similar ministry. In 1545, however, he was captured and imprisoned in Vienna. After a year and six weeks he was awakened at midnight by the clatter of soldiers in the hall outside his cell. The door burst open, and by the light of the soldiers' torches he read in their faces his impending fate. He was led through the silent city to the banks of the Danube and thrown in.
As the soldiers heard his splash, little did they realize that the Sabbath for which he gave his life would live on for centuries in Germany, burst into life in Great Britain, be transferred to the American colonies, and in the twentieth century capture the hearts of millions of people all around the world.
Adapted with Permission from LIBERTY, a magazine of religious freedom. Copyright 1974




The Bible tells us clearly in Daniel that a persecuting power would change God’s laws of which it did – the Seventh Day Sabbath became the first day Sabbath without God’s approval. The book of Daniel also refers to this change of God's law by this antichrist power as reaching to the host of heaven and trampling the heavenly sanctuary under foot. We find the same expression used in Hebrews chapter ten in reference to wilful sin,
Hebrews 10:26-29 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
This verse tells us that there remains no more sacrifice for deliberate sin and to continue in sin is to trample the Son of God under foot and to treat Christ's work on the cross as an unholy thing despite the fact we are under grace. This is a warning we should take very seriously.
This change to the Sabbath came about over hundreds of years and by the death of millions and millions of Christians. This is another fact that most Christians are unaware of.

 

[MrJim]

I was looking through my anabaptists resources. Glaidt is listed by author William Estep as a co-minister with Balthasar Hubmaier (someone I'm familiar with).

Do you have anything about sabbath worship by more well known historic anabaptists like Menno Simons, Pilgram Marpeck, Balthasar Hubmaier, Hans Denck, Peter Rideman, Michael Sattler, Hans Hut, Dirk Phillips, Conrad Grebel?

Then there is the early church testimony, which carries more weight than the anabaptists, such as Ignatius & Justin Martyr & Clement of Alexandria & the Didache. Not anything new here...

 

[ACADEMIC]

Still, does it really matter given what Paul said about days?

If we are obligated to keep the Sabbath we are obligated to keep the whole law. Any takers? :o

But the law and all of its ordinances were nailed to the cross. We are no longer under law but grace.

Many Messianic Christian movements are seriously confused on these sorts of law/grace issues, unfortunately.

It is one thing to hold one day above the rest in one's own mind, and live that way; but it is out-of-bounds, according to Paul, for someone to try to make their preferred day binding upon the consciences of others.

 

[MrJim]

Still, does it really matter given what Paul said about days?

If we are obligated to keep the Sabbath we are obligated to keep the whole law. Any takers? :o

But the law and all of its ordinances were nailed to the cross. We are no longer under law but grace.

Many Messianic Christian movements are seriously confused on these sorts of law/grace issues, unfortunately.

It is one thing to hold one day above the rest in one's own mind, and live that way; but it is out-of-bounds, according to Paul, for someone to try to make their preferred day binding upon the consciences of others.

A roving forums scholar is pretty handy to have around these parts

 

[Jehane]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

any takers ? yes, we must keep the whole law [only those of us immersed in Yahshua, others cannot keep one point of the law, not one tidbit] by Yhwh's Doing, Yhwh's Plan, Yhwh's Grace; our obedience to Him.

The Sabbath commandment is part of the Ten Commandments, which were written with the finger of God! Exo.24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
Exo.31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. (See also Deut.9:10)
The 4th Commandment
Exo.20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
You may read the Bible from cover to cover and you will not find a single verse which cancels or amends the Sabbath commandment. That is a fact. You will, instead, find many texts which call for the observance of Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, commonly called Saturday.

Yahweh's Sabbath Day
In view of the above facts, it is a mistake to refer to the Sabbath as the Jewish Sabbath; or that it is only to be observed by Jews. The Sabbath is Yahweh's Sabbath; or, as the Scriptures put it: the Sabbath of the LORD thy God! To be sure it is kept by Israel and the Jews; but it is not for Israel alone, any more than the Ten Commandments are for the Jews alone. According to the fourth commandment, even 'strangers' (Gentiles) are expected to keep the Sabbath day. If they obey this royal command, Gentiles will also be greatly blessed. Notice the word 'stranger' in the following texts:
Exo.20:8-10 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy...in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Isa.56:6: Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7: Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer… Yes, the Sabbath belongs to the LORD and, like all the other nine commandments, He made it to be remembered and kept holy by all nations. In obedience to this commandment the seventh day Sabbath was kept by all the great and holy personalities mentioned in the Bible:

• By all the Old Testament Prophets of the LORD God of Israel.
• By the early Christian Church long after the death and resurrection of the Saviour.
• By all the early Apostles, including the Apostle Paul.
• By Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ)
• And by Jehovah (YAHWEH) Himself.

Neither is there any evidence in the New Testament to suggest that the Saviour or his Apostles changed the Ten Commandments and transferred the sanctity of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week. Instead, Jesus kept his Father's commandments (John 15:10). If he hadn't done so he would have been classified as 'a sinner.' But we read that the Saviour kept the Sabbath day as it was meant to be kept, much to the annoyance of the Scribes and Pharisees who had burdened the day with many petty, man-made restrictions. These the Master brushed aside. Commenting on the eternal nature of his Father's law the Saviour said these words:
Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Moreover the Master advised his followers, who were mostly Jews at that time, to pray to God that He might allow them to keep the Sabbath at the destruction of Jerusalem: which was to take place in AD70, some 40 years after the resurrection.

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter,
neither on the sabbath day. (Matt.24:20) Pause and consider this text and see how pointless it would have been for the Saviour to have given this advice to his predominantly Jewish followers if the Sabbath commandment was going to be abolished at Calvary. The truth is, the Saviour had absolutely no intention whatsoever of doing away with or changing the Sabbath commandment. He had an extremely high regard for his Father's law; which he was instrumental in giving to Israel in the first place. (James 4:12) In short, the true Sabbath day is still the seventh day of the week, the day commonly known as Saturday!

This unequivocal fact means that those who break the Sabbath commandment are guilty of sin, whether they realize it or not; for '…sin is the transgression of the law.' (1 John 3:4)

 

[ACADEMIC]

Okay, so you are convinced from a booklet at http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/SBS777/saccal/calbook/index.html written by someone from a Judaistic/Christian movement started by David B. Loughran that Christians should observe a certain version of the ancient Jewish calendar found most clearly here: http://www.avoiceinthewilderness.org/bibcal/bibcal_index.htm , a church that is apparently an offshoot of Loughran's movement which you posted inanother forum to someone as a suggestion for a church they could attend.

Very well. Good. You are certainly free to be so convinced and should be respected.

Yet I am not convinced and not many will be. And they are certainly free to not be so convinced and should be respected, as with you.

Maybe you are the weaker brother here and maybe the so many others are the stronger; or said inversely, maybe you are the stronger brother here and maybe the so many others are the weaker.

But that does not really matter.

As for me, I accept believers as believers who feel they must keep days, abstain from food or wine, etc., that I do not.

I accept you.

If you accept believers who differ from you on days and food and such, and I hope you do, I hope you will find yourself in acceptable company not just here but lots of places.

As Paul stated,

Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written:

"As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God."

So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil;
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.
It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Rom 14:1-23

As even David B. Loughran who is the founder of the movement from which I think it perhaps appears you herald from said, "I try to respect the right of each believer to believe what he/she wants. When it comes to answering questions, I am no Solomon by any means: so it's up to individuals to decide for themselves what they are going to believe" (see point #6 "Disagreements" at http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/SBS777/dbl01.html , emphasis added).

There is a whole lot more to talk about than "doubtful disputings" like Sabbath-keeping. "Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another."

 

[~InHisHands~]

Would it not still be in observance as long as one took a day of rest. Regardless of which day it is? I am duty bound to be at work on certain Saturday's whether I like it or not. However, I do try to observe one day where I do not labor.

 

[ACADEMIC]

Would it not still be in observance as long as one took a day of rest. Regardless of which day it is? I am duty bound to be at work on certain Saturday's whether I like it or not. However, I do try to observe one day where I do not labor.

Yea, I think you got the heart matter.

To elaborate....

I think if one is keeping a certain day as a required part of the supposed actions they must take to obtain or maintain justificaction before God, it is a sadly misguided project.

On the other hand, keeping a day off from one's normal routine, some day no matter the day, to have special focus on God and/or to just rejuvinate holisticaly is another matter and one of only practical consideration.

See the difference?

The one day is the one you "have to keep" because keping that day supposedly affects your standing before God in Christ; but really it does not affect it in even the slightest.

The other is where you keep a day because doing so is something you are free in Christ to do and because taking one day off per week is a good for you, practically and exclusively speaking.

See what I mean?

There is today a "spirit" behind keeping the Sabbath--people do best with a day off after every whichever six days, very simply speaking. But in Christ there is no letter to it that as a binding requirment for receiving justification or any sort of "special status" with God. Take your day off, whichever it is. And even if you cannot take it, you are nontheless justified before God in Christ.

You get what I am meaning?

BTW, I am on a year off because I could not take very many days off during a very gruelling two-year period. I was justified in Christ both then and now.

 

[Jehane]

It was Jesus who said the whole of the law hangs on just 2 commandments: love God, love thy neighbour. If I can manage that then I have kept the law. Faith, hope, love abide But the greatest of these is love. Keeping or nor keeping the Sabbath is very small beans by comparison.

 

[ACADEMIC]

It was Jesus who said the whole of the law hangs on just 2 commandments: love God, love thy neighbour. If I can manage that then I have kept the law. Faith, hope, love abide But the greatest of these is love. Keeping or nor keeping the Sabbath is very small beans by comparison.

Amen, and it is even slightly more simple than two commandments, as I see it.

According to Paul, Christians are bound by one law and one law only: "the law of love."

And according to Paul, love does no wrong to one's neighbor and, because of that, in the law of love are summed up all of the OT commandments toward both God and man.

As you said, "But the greatest of these is love."

Amazing! Worship-inspiring!

Yet not always easy and often very costly.

 

[Jehane]

Oh, I didn't say I could do it; just that that is where love of Christ leads.Love is all of the law. Now we see through a glass darkly but one day... 'Come, Lord Jesus, come!'

 

[~InHisHands~]

Many can not even manage to uphold the law of love much less anything else.