What to say...what to say

[WarEagle]

That's a pretty ignorant statement.

I'm sorry you find that ignorant. It happens to be true.

Christian terrorist organizations have banned Hindu holidays (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/953200.stm) and have killed many animists and Hindus in their attempts to forcefully convert non-Christians. (Check into the NLFT).

Then by Biblical definition, they're not Christians.

For the record, that group is not a "Christian" group any more than Sinn Fein is a "Roman Catholic" group.

 

[indianx]

Then by Biblical definition, they're not Christians.

Oh, but we're not applying the Vedic definition for Hindus? By the Vedic definition, those extremists that you've referred to are not Hindus. If you know anything about Hinduism, you know that ahimsa is a central concept.

I'm sorry you find that ignorant. It happens to be true.

Actually, it happens to be false. But, whatever helps you sleep at night, eh?

 

[WarEagle]

Actually, it happens to be false.

OK. On what grounds do you say that these documented and confirmed accounts are false?

Like I said, I would strongly encourage anyone who believes that the Christian life is so wonderful to go to the Voice of the Martyrs website and read the accounts of the persecution that the Christians in other countries, including India, face.

 

[indianx]

OK. On what grounds do you say that these documented and confirmed accounts are false?

Like I said, I would strongly encourage anyone who believes that the Christian life is so wonderful to go to the Voice of the Martyrs website and read the accounts of the persecution that the Christians in other countries, including India, face.

My initial response:

No, an Indian Hindu (I don't understand why my non-Indian brothers would have to respond to a question about India), or any Indian, for that matter, would respond, "Have you been to my country?" India is a democratic and secular nation. Have there been acts of religious extremism? Yes, but they are sparse and vary among all the religious groups (meaning they're not limited to Hindus). But, they're definitely not representative of the majority of the population, regardless of religion. If you want to reply by pointing out specific acts of Hindu extremism against Christians, I would be much obliged if I could have the opportunity to reply in kind.

As you can see, no where did I deny the authenticity of specific documented reports of Hindu or Christian (or Muslim, for that matter) extremism in India. I said that drawing the conclusion that these sparse and exceptional incidents are representative of the entire population was erroneous. You can point out specific acts of extremism by people calling themselves Hindus, but that doesn't mean they are representative of most, if not all, of the 800 million Hindus living in my country.

For example, you see me pointing out documented acts of violence and murder by Christians against Hindus in India, but nowhere do you see me saying that their actions are representative of the Indian Christian community. Once again, if you want to use VOM as a valid source, I'll refer you to ChristianAgression.org as an equally valid source of information of Christian persecution of non-Christians, in India and around the world.

 

[WarEagle]

As you can see, no where did I deny the authenticity of specific documented reports of Hindu or Christian (or Muslim, for that matter) extremism in India.

Actually, you did. See post #60. Then see post #64. First, you said it was ignorant. Then, you said the reports weren't true.

Once again, if you want to use VOM as a valid source, I'll refer you to ChristianAgression.org as an equally valid source of information of Christian persecution of non-Christians, in India and around the world.

And, again, they are, by the Bible's definition, not Christians.

It's rather difficult to say that the Indian government is not the Indian government.

 

[indianx]

Post #60:

Yes.

I don't understand your way of thinking. It's almost as if you're talking about different companies. What does company A offer you? Well, let me give you this brochure. As you can see, company B offers a better discount rate and different services. That's just not the way I think. Perhaps you could clarify your question.

No where do I talk about acts of extremism in that post. I confirmed John's question as to whether the NLFT were Christian terrorists.

In the last several years, many, many Christians have been killed or persecuted, most of them with the cooperation of the government.

I said that this was false and I stand by it. Show me where such acts have been commited "with the cooperation of the government."

It's rather difficult to say that the Indian government is not the Indian government.

But, it's not difficult to delineate between the central and state government, is it? Especially when the party in control of the central government is headed by an Italian Christian (talk about tolerance). State governments in India reflect the diversity of the states themselves. There are states led by Christian chief ministers (look at Andhra Pradesh) and there are states where the majority of the population is Christian. So, when you take a moment to think about it, what I said should make sense.

 

[WarEagle]

Post #60:



No where do I talk about acts of extremism in that post. I confirmed John's question as to whether the NLFT were Christian terrorists.

Excuse me, that should have read post #56.

I said that this was false and I stand by it. Show me where such acts have been commited "with the cooperation of the government."

Like I said, go to Voice of the Martyrs' website. There are hundreds of examples of Christian persecution around the globe, including India.

But, it's not difficult to delineate between the central and state government, is it? Especially when the party in control of the central government is headed by an Italian Christian (talk about tolerance). State governments in India reflect the diversity of the states themselves. There are states led by Christian chief ministers (look at Andhra Pradesh) and there are states where the majority of the population is Christian. So, when you take a moment to think about it, what I said should make sense.

I'm sure that will be very comforting to the families of those dead pastors and missionaries.

 

[indianx]

Excuse me, that should have read post #56.

That's all right. People tend to commit mistakes of logic when they get caught up in the moment.

Like I said, go to Voice of the Martyrs' website. There are hundreds of examples of Christian persecution around the globe, including India.

Like I said, if you could just refer me to the examples that occurred "with the cooperation of the [Indian] government", I would be much obliged.

I'm sure that will be very comforting to the families of those dead pastors and missionaries.

...which has nothing to do with what I was discussing, but that's quite all right too.

I feel for any family affected by acts of religious extremism, whether they're committed by Hindus or Christians.

If you don't mind, I would suggest you contact me through the pm system if you have anything more to say. I don't want to derail s41nn0n's with this relatively irrelevant discussion, besides, I'm quite interested in hearing what happened to his quest.

 

[WarEagle]

That's all right. People tend to commit mistakes of logic when they get caught up in the moment.

Actually, it wasn't a mistake of logic. I just typed in the wrong number.

An example of a mistake in logic would be saying something stupid like, "'x' occured in one part of India and not in another part of India. Therefore, 'X' didn't actually occur in India."

Like I said, if you could just refer me to the examples that occurred "with the cooperation of the [Indian] government", I would be much obliged.

You asked for a source. I gave you a source.

...which has nothing to do with what I was discussing, but that's quite all right too.

I feel for any family affected by acts of religious extremism, whether they're committed by Hindus or Christians.

Evidently not, since you're bending over backwards to excuse those who killed them.

If you don't mind, I would suggest you contact me through the pm system

Why would I care to contact you at all?

Why?

 

[indianx]

s41nn0n, I hope you won't mind my posting this one last post on this subject, which is quite obviously irrelevant to your topic.

Why would I care to contact you at all?

Why?

Instead of posting that post in the thread, you could have pmed me. That's all I asked you to do with the hope that we wouldn't continue to derail this thread with our petty discussion.

Actually, it wasn't a mistake of logic. I just typed in the wrong number.

An example of a mistake in logic would be saying something stupid like, "'x' occured in one part of India and not in another part of India. Therefore, 'X' didn't actually occur in India."

By logic, I meant 'sound judgement'. Besides, where exactly did I say that? I said that these acts of extremism by Hindus are not representative of other 800 million Hindus in my country. I just don't understand where you're drawing these conclusions from.

You asked for a source. I gave you a source.

I asked you for examples that occurred "with the cooperation of the [Indian] government"and you haven't given me a single one. Instead, you've resorted to creating strawman arguments and frankly, dishonest attempts to appeal to emotion.

Evidently not, since you're bending over backwards to excuse those who killed them.

Once again, I don't understand where you're getting these supposed statements from. In case you haven't already got it, my point is that these exceptional and sparse acts of religious extremism should not be used to generalize over 800 million people, most of whom are tolerant and peaceful.

 

[WarEagle]

By logic, I meant 'sound judgement'.

Accidentally typing the wrong number isn't a lapse in sound judgement. What a petty and juvenile tactic.

I asked you for examples that occurred "with the cooperation of the [Indian] government"and you haven't given me a single one.

You're right. I didn't give you a single one. I provided you with a source that lists dozens.

 

[RMDY]

Yes.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/717775.stm



I don't understand your way of thinking. It's almost as if you're talking about different companies. What does company A offer you? Well, let me give you this brochure. As you can see, company B offers a better discount rate and different services. That's just not the way I think. Perhaps you could clarify your question.

My God died for me because he loved me, not because I did anything to deserve it.

 

[RMDY]

indianx,

The only kind of christian extremist that exists is one who loves others to the extremes!

 

[indianx]

My God died for me because he loved me, not because I did anything to deserve it.

I'm not sure what point in my previous post you're addressing. I don't recall speaking to any aspect of that statement, particularly the italicized part. I don't love Lord Krishna, because I expect some reward in an after-life from him. I love him, because in complete devotion to him, I find Him in me. This is called bhakti yoga in our scriptures. It always amuses me when Christians attempt to make a case against Hinduism by saying Hindus worship an impersonal god.
On the contrary, you'll find that most Hindus worship an highly personal form of god. I can't use a better example than my own mother. Every morning, since the day I've been conscious of her actions, she's woken up at the early dawn and prayed for an hour to Lord Ganesha. And every single time I've seen tears in her eyes when she chants verses of devotion to the Lord. I'm not saying this to make some emotional point, but to show you why such an argument doesn't work in the case of most Hindus.

The only kind of christian extremist that exists is one who loves others to the extremes!

That's good, John. But, that doesn't change the fact that some Christians are killing in the "name of the Lord", does it? See, this is what troubles me. When a few erratic people calling themselves Hindus act out violently, you call persecution. When I say they are not representative of the other 800 million Hindus living in my country, you (not necessarily you, John) say I'm making excuses. But, when I point out acts of violence and murder by Christians, your only response is that they're not Christian. And this is not something new, this kind of double standard has been used many times in discussions over at the NCR forum.

 

[RMDY]

I'm not sure what point in my previous post you're addressing. I don't recall speaking to any aspect of that statement, particularly the italicized part. I don't love Lord Krishna, because I expect some reward in an after-life from him. I love him, because in complete devotion to him, I find Him in me. This is called bhakti yoga in our scriptures. It always amuses me when Christians attempt to make a case against Hinduism by saying Hindus worship an impersonal god.
On the contrary, you'll find that most Hindus worship an highly personal form of god. I can't use a better example than my own mother. Every morning, since the day I've been conscious of her actions, she's woken up at the early dawn and prayed for an hour to Lord Ganesha. And every single time I've seen tears in her eyes when she chants verses of devotion to the Lord. I'm not saying this to make some emotional point, but to show you why such an argument doesn't work in the case of most Hindus.


That's good, John. But, that doesn't change the fact that some Christians are killing in the "name of the Lord", does it? See, this is what troubles me. When a few erratic people calling themselves Hindus act out violently, you call persecution. When I say they are not representative of the other 800 million Hindus living in my country, you (not necessarily you, John) say I'm making excuses. But, when I point out acts of violence and murder by Christians, your only response is that they're not Christian. And this is not something new, this kind of double standard has been used many times in discussions over at the NCR forum.

Have you ever read the gospel? If you did, you would realize that anyone who truly follows Christ won't resort to "terrorism".


I love my God because He loved me first, not because I expect anything from him.

 

[indianx]

Have you ever read the gospel? If you did, you would realize that anyone who truly follows Christ won't resort to "terrorism".

Yes, my father's close friend was a Christian evangelist. He used to come around the house to leave pamphlets and booklets. I read the Bible before I read the Bhagavad Gita. I can only thank Lord Krishna for that experience, because it allowed me to see the truth when I finally did read the Gita. Well, I hope you will then accept that anyone who truly follows the Vedas will not resort to violence either.

I love my God because He loved me first, not because I expect anything from him.

Good for you, friend. It looks like we might be similar after all.

 

[RMDY]

Yes, my father's close friend was a Christian evangelist. He used to come around the house to leave pamphlets and booklets. I read the Bible before I read the Bhagavad Gita. I can only thank Lord Krishna for that experience, because it allowed me to see the truth when I finally did read the Gita. Well, I hope you will then accept that anyone who truly follows the Vedas will not resort to violence either.

Good for you, friend. It looks like we might be similar after all.

Well, I hope you will then accept that anyone who truly follows the Vedas will not resort to violence either.

I accept it.

This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. (1 John 4:9-11)

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 14:14-15)

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. (Ephesians 2:13). And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. (Heb. 13:12)

 

[heron]

There will always be corrupt groups that call themselves Christian, just like there can be Michael Jackson fans who don't dance, and Obama groupies who don't have a clue what he stands for.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek. If someone takes your coat, give him the shirt off your back.

(Luke 6:29)

 

[RMDY]

There will always be corrupt groups that call themselves Christian, just like there can be Michael Jackson fans who don't dance, and Obama groupies who don't have a clue what he stands for.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek. If someone takes your coat, give him the shirt off your back.

(Luke 6:29)

What about christians and military service? Surely that contradicts itself? (i.e. Crusades)