What to say to a non-believer

[Melethiel]

I fully plan on indoctrinating my children. I don't buy this whole "free choice" thing - teenageers aren't. Known for having the best reasoning skills, and I wouldn't give them the free choice to jump off a cliff either. Am I really a follower of my own religion if I don't try to guide my children into what I believe to be the correct way?

 

[Teemu]

If parents have experienced that their Christianity has helped them greatly in their life then not teaching children Christianity makes as much sense as throwing the children in the pool and telling them to find their own swimming style. Rightly understood Christianity offers great solutions to handle the two main causes of problems in life and that are pretty much responsible for 90% or more of misery: pride and guilt.

 

[The Nihilist]

Rightly understood Christianity offers great solutions to handle the two main causes of problems in life and that are pretty much responsible for 90% or more of misery: pride and guilt.

You've heard of poverty, right?

 

[K9_Trainer]

I think its better to raise children to think for themselves and to question the world, rather than to just believe things blindly. There's too many gullible people in the world.

Great people did not become great by accepting whatever society told them.

 

[Singermom]

When we're teaching our daughters about God, we use specific instances in our lives that is evidence of His work...and believe me, we have a million of 'em.

I also have a Jewish sister and some Muslim friends, and we allow the girls to ask them questions.

We NEVER say "just because"

 

[Cosmicteapot]

When we're teaching our daughters about God, we use specific instances in our lives that is evidence of His work...and believe me, we have a million of 'em.

I also have a Jewish sister and some Muslim friends, and we allow the girls to ask them questions.

We NEVER say "just because"

Can I ask what "Evidences of God" do you tell your children about?

The argument from personal experience is a great topic for debate.

 

[TeachMe]

I'm somewhat shocked that the Bible is at the BOTTOM of this list. But regardless, while Mere Christianity is an okay book for basic apologetics and CARM is decent, and I haven't read the Dawkins Delusion, I'd stay away from the others (esp AIG). Their arguments are laughable and sometimes plain old wrong, and could rather serve to turn someone even further away from Christianity if they think they have to become ignorant to accept it.

I typed the books as they entered my head, they are not in any particular order!

I would be interested about your sources for the arguments in New Evidence being laughable...I know there are some which are weaker than others but as a student of philosophy and humanities myself I have not found many of them to me particularly humorous.

Also, please quote sources for AiG being laughable. My father is a scientist and has yet to find any extremely questionable science in their publications.


No one has to become ignorant to accept it but I hardly think these two sources promote ignorance. That is a rather strong claim to make about fellow christians.

 

[TeachMe]

I said in my last post that it's wrong to force your idealology onto the children, atheism included.

Leave the kids to be kids and let them make the decision on their own, without any influence from the parents set of beliefs.

A child is genetically pre-programmed to accumulate knowledge from figures of authority.

For purposes of the "survival of the fittest" explanation, the brain is set up in such a way so that it believes what it is told by it's elders, because there just isn't time to experiment with warnings like "Don't go to near the cliff edge" or "Dont run across a busy highway" if there were any children who applied a questioning attitude to those teachings they would be dead.

The child brain will automatically believe what it is told, even if what it is told is nonsense. Then when that child grows up it will pass that same nonsense onto its children.
This is why the "santa claus and easter bunny" stories make kids so excited because they truly believe that they exist (and why wouldn't they when the proof is chocolates and presents) they dont question that the chocolates and presents may have been placed there by another means, because their brains aren't developed enough to question it, they just automatically believe the stories because that's what their elders and peers told them.

That is the scientific reason behind religious indoctrination and how the teaching of religious dogma acts like a virus and spreads down through the generations. You can do the same with Atheism, I can tell my child that I dont believe in a God, and that there is a lack of evidence for his existence and that may affect his grasp of learning about religion in the future.

When it comes to questions in the world which aren't possible to answer with a yes or no, let the child come to their own conclusions.

Well that would be all well and good if you could box up all the "complicated" questions into a "find out when you are older" box and then go on your merry way.

But the fact is what one believes about the origins of life, the existence or non-existence of the supernatural, the purpose for which we are on this earth and where we are headed in life affects every facet of your day to day existence.

Some examples may be recycling, whether or not one eats meat, what music you allow in your home, what television programmes you watch, what people you allow into your inner circle, what you teach your child when it comes to science, history, what books you read.....the list could be endless.


Someone who is a christian and someone who is an atheist will be more likely to have a HUGE variation on some of these issues in my opinion.


which is FINE. Unless you have kids and you expect your variation to be the one practiced.

 

[Singermom]

Can I ask what "Evidences of God" do you tell your children about?

The argument from personal experience is a great topic for debate.

You can ask, but I won't answer, because then it'll just be claimed as coincidence or natural order of things...except I'll say this: the fact that we have children at all is purely an act of God, having had to deal with infertility for many, many years and yet still having them completely naturally. The fact that we have not one, but TWO children - not twins - is purely a miracle from God.

My husband and I have a loving relationship with God, and the girls see that in our everyday lives, they've seen answers to prayers, they've seen correlations between their lives and what the Bible says, etc.

 

[Teemu]

You've heard of poverty, right?

Well, religious people give far more to charity too, and are generally much more happy, Arthur C. Brooks got nice statistics on them, so you could say that it helps both helping poor and dealing with poverty if it hits you.

 

[Melethiel]

I typed the books as they entered my head, they are not in any particular order!

I would be interested about your sources for the arguments in New Evidence being laughable...I know there are some which are weaker than others but as a student of philosophy and humanities myself I have not found many of them to me particularly humorous.

Also, please quote sources for AiG being laughable. My father is a scientist and has yet to find any extremely questionable science in their publications.


No one has to become ignorant to accept it but I hardly think these two sources promote ignorance. That is a rather strong claim to make about fellow christians.

I will give specifics later, as I am aat work right now, but the "my father is a scienntist" line isn't going to get you anywhere. Guess what? My father has a Ph.D. in physics, but that only allows him to talk about AiG's arguments about physics (which, btw, he finds pitiful). Unless your father is an expert in evolutionnary biology, I hardly see why his opinion matters.

I am also sure that all these sources come from wonderful christians. That doesn't mean they know what they are talking about, and I think we do christianity a disservice when we make it seem like we have to ignore science, or when we make beelieving in pseudo-science a requirement for being christian, as AiG seems to do (they look down quite a bit on christians who accept evolution as being second class).

It is not our bjob to convince people by our brilliant arguments to be christian; it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin. The aposteles didn't preach a 6 day creation and the evils of science; rather they taught Christ and him crucified.

(Please excuse typos, as this is written on my phone)

 

[TeachMe]

I will give specifics later, as I am aat work right now, but the "my father is a scienntist" line isn't going to get you anywhere. Guess what? My father has a Ph.D. in physics, but that only allows him to talk about AiG's arguments about physics (which, btw, he finds pitiful). Unless your father is an expert in evolutionnary biology, I hardly see why his opinion matters.

I am also sure that all these sources come from wonderful christians. That doesn't mean they know what they are talking about, and I think we do christianity a disservice when we make it seem like we have to ignore science, or when we make beelieving in pseudo-science a requirement for being christian, as AiG seems to do (they look down quite a bit on christians who accept evolution as being second class).

It is not our bjob to convince people by our brilliant arguments to be christian; it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin. The aposteles didn't preach a 6 day creation and the evils of science; rather they taught Christ and him crucified.

(Please excuse typos, as this is written on my phone)

typos are excused.

First of all, the apostles did not preach 6 days to the Jewish people, since there was no need to... they already believed the account of creation. To the Romans, Paul actually DID talk about the first man, and the beginning of the world (writing in five minutes before lecture will find you references within the next 24 hours )

Secondly, my father is a masters working towards his PhD in horticultural science. Obviously he would not be an expert in every field however there are some basic things, such as the scientific method that even a highschool graduate should know. I was merely pointing out that their base arguments are not so unscientific that they are completely laughable.

They are indeed I am sure wonderful christians, but most also have a rather impressive set of letters after their names, related to the field in which they are critiquing. I am most confident that they DO know what they are talking about. I admit I have only highschool bio under my belt but I hardly think that a group of senior scientists would pro-port pseudo science. They are risking their credibility as intellectuals amongst evolution believing scientists, I for one would not do so until I was darn sure that I had strong argument which I could defend with a clear conscience.

As for your comment about second-class citizens that is neither here nor there. If their arguments are logically sound then they are logically sound. How they use (or abuse them) is irrelevant to their correctness.

It is not our job to convert someone by clever arguments or even by sound logic, you are most correct and I completely agree with you. I have said and will say again ONLY GOD can convict and ONLY GOD can save.

HOWEVER we are also told that we must be ready to give an answer for the Hope that we have, and when I live in a world where the truth that Jesus affirmed is lumped as a fairytale along with so many other pagan myths then I am going to be well prepared to give my reasons as to why I believe that all scripture is God-Breathed and a truthful, accurate description of the history of Gods love for the human race.

In my personal experience, Mr C refused to even consider God until he started to become convinced of the accuracy of scripture through logical arguments. It "cleared the way" for him. It was NOT however what in the end brought him to Christ.


and finally, you still haven't said what is wrong with McDowells book. He refers to philosophical arguments, the validity of the Bible and the historical evdince for the personage of Jesus Christ. His book I referred to is not creationist nor does it even mention creation. So what is your issue with his arguments? I'd be interested to know...

 

[Cosmicteapot]

You can ask, but I won't answer, because then it'll just be claimed as coincidence or natural order of things...

That statement makes you sound very close-minded, and I'm sure you're not.

except I'll say this: the fact that we have children at all is purely an act of

God, having had to deal with infertility for many, many years and yet still having them completely naturally. The fact that we have not one, but TWO children - not twins - is purely a miracle from God

Coincidences that appear too unlikely are considered by many religious people to be a miracle or message from God.
No matter how much it seems an event had to have been more than a coincidence, realize that there are over 6 billion people in the world, with various beliefs and religions, and we can assume that virtually all of them experience coincidences and many people have experienced highly improbable coincidences... including atheists and agnostics.
On a grand scale coincidences aren't that special or uncommon, nor are they unique. They really are a natural occurance.

My parents are Atheists and they couldn't concieve for up to 8 years, then finally myself and my twin brother were born, there were some very serious complications and I was in an incubator for 3 months due to being born with a lack of blood and my body not accepting any blood transfusions, my heart stopped beating twice and the doctors said I had a 25% chance of surviving, my brother and I are nearly 26 now and have always been fit and healthy...you hear stories like mine all the time all over the world!

My husband and I have a loving relationship with God, and the girls see that in our everyday lives, they've seen answers to prayers, they've seen correlations between their lives and what the Bible says, etc.

So in other words your religion brings you happiness and comfort... Of course it does, because religion has an answer for every single question!
Religions exist because they give complete idealologies, systems of living and they claim to answer all your questions; you dont even have to think!
Simply pick your poison and do what it says, and why wouldn't you believe in something that gives you all the answers?

In my opinion the answers are not acceptable answers. They are wishful answers for the sole purpose of making you feel better. All religions of the world provide answers equally; that's what they are meant to do. A religion that provides no answers has no followers!

 

[Hentenza]

So in other words your religion brings you happiness and comfort... Of course it does, because religion has an answer for every single question!
Religions exist because they give complete idealologies, systems of living and they claim to answer all your questions; you dont even have to think!
Simply pick your poison and do what it says, and why wouldn't you believe in something that gives you all the answers?

In my opinion the answers are not acceptable answers. They are wishful answers for the sole purpose of making you feel better. All religions of the world provide answers equally; that's what they are meant to do. A religion that provides no answers has no followers!

I will differ from your opinion. You seem to be saying that those that are religious, such as myself, are mentally programmed to follow said religion without giving it any thought. That could not be further from the truth. I was an atheist for many years. Relatively happy. Family. Kids. Great career. Successful. Living the American dream. I hold a degree in electrical engineering, and a MEng. My mind has always been "curious".

And then one day 12 years ago, God called. Here I am. No indoctrination, or complete ideologies, or systems of living. I'm sorry but I don't buy into the atheist "superior" intellect logical fallacy. Maybe one day God will call you and your life will be turned upside down (for the better lol) like mine did.

 

[Cosmicteapot]

One day 12 years ago, God called. Here I am. No indoctrination, or complete ideologies, or systems of living. I'm sorry but I don't buy into the atheist "superior" intellect logical fallacy. Maybe one day God will call you and your life will be turned upside down (for the better lol) like mine did.

The creator of the universe communicates with you? How? Is it that voice inside your head?
We know humans think in language. We know that the average person can think anywhere from 80 to 800 words per minute, if indeed some of those words in your brain are coming from God, how do you know which ones are from God? The brain creates thought; why is it reasonable to believe that some of these thoughts are coming from outside of your brain?

Everyone has internal dialogue: I have daily conversations with myself, however, I believe the thoughts are all my own, created in my brain, and they come from my experiences based on my perception of the world.

How can you be sure it's not just your inner dialogue that you are confusing with God?

 

[Hentenza]

The creator of the universe communicates with you? How? Is it that voice inside your head?
We know humans think in language. We know that the average person can think anywhere from 80 to 800 words per minute, if indeed some of those words in your brain are coming from God, how do you know which ones are from God? The brain creates thought; why is it reasonable to believe that some of these thoughts are coming from outside of your brain?

LOL!!! Typical. He talks through the heart. This is much different that an "internal dialogue".

 

[Cosmicteapot]

LOL!!! Typical. He talks through the heart. This is much different that an "internal dialogue".

Oh LOL...silly me... I was unaware that the cardiovascular system was also capable of sentient thought processes. Would you care to elaboratre on how the creator of the universe "speaks" to you through your heart? (emphasis on speaks there)

Do you mean to say it's your intuition that is coming from God?... give yourself a little more credit! Humans with healthy brains have intuition, that "gut felling" we get about a certain situation, not a mysterious energy force, nor messages from God.
Intuition can be explained naturally as physical and natural brain function.

The brain has 2 hemispheres, the left side handles logical thought and language, and the right side deals with emotions and abstract concepts.
We know intuition is a physical activity in the brain's right hemisphere. Intuition is intellectual thinking, but at a subliminal level.
Therefore intuition is subliminal thinking. Since language is not a right brain function, the right brain communicates with the left brain using emotion. When you get a "bad feeling" about a situation, your right brain is communicating with your left.

This is intuition

 

[Singermom]

I didn't want to do this, but...

Cosmicteapot, you just proved my point. I knew that, no matter what evidence I posted, you would turn it around to merely coincidence or "wishful thinking".

I'm talking 17 years of infertility.

I'm talking about a husband who, for all intents and purposes, should be in a wheelchair, but instead has a very physical job.

I'm talking about the healing of my husband's relationship with his formerly abusive mother.

I'm talking about, while spending 2 years living and working in a homeless shelter, having all of our needs met WITH NO PHYSICAL MEANS OF SUPPORT. This included feminine hygiene products...and even the brand I preferred.

I'm talking about receiving direct instruction from God in certain aspects, including Him using me to reach someone else through a song I sang - a song that I had never even HEARD before until He told me to sing it.

I'm talking about my daughter, when she was in Kindergarten, going to sit next to a new kid during breakfast because she felt that God led her to, when no one else would.

...but, I supposed this is all "intuition" and "wishful thinking".

 

[Hentenza]

Oh LOL...silly me... I was unaware that the cardiovascular system was also capable of sentient thought processes. Would you care to elaboratre on how the creator of the universe "speaks" to you through your heart? (emphasis on speaks there)

Do you mean to say it's your intuition that is coming from God?... give yourself a little more credit! Humans with healthy brains have intuition, that "gut felling" we get about a certain situation, not a mysterious energy force, nor messages from God.
Intuition can be explained naturally as physical and natural brain function.

The brain has 2 hemispheres, the left side handles logical thought and language, and the right side deals with emotions and abstract concepts.
We know intuition is a physical activity in the brain's right hemisphere. Intuition is intellectual thinking, but at a subliminal level.
Therefore intuition is subliminal thinking. Since language is not a right brain function, the right brain communicates with the left brain using emotion. When you get a "bad feeling" about a situation, your right brain is communicating with your left.

This is intuition

Nah. One moment I am an atheist completely uninterested in any kind of religion and then I develop this intense desire to study all things religious. It's interesting because my reading genre used to be mainly techno-thrillers by authors like Dale Brown, Tom Clancy, Larry Collins, etc. and non fiction biographies. In a matter of a couple of months I no longer was drawn to reading any of these but to dedicate a good portion of my reading time to theological and religious themes. In the last 12 years I have only read maybe 2 books from my old genre (except for several historical figure biographies).

My main life focus has also changed. Many things that I used to enjoy now I no longer have a desire to do. This aspect of the change is quite dramatic and one that I do not have a natural explanation for.

Of course, you are probably going to chuck this to some natural change in my life or some other equally absurd natural occurrence but I can confidently tell you that it is not so. I have no explanation (well I do but you will discard it) to explain these changes.

I see that you are quite young. My calling did not come until I was well into my thirties so only time will tell as to how you will react when your time comes. BTW- There is probably not much that I can say that will convince you, however, that is not my purview nor my intent. I see that you have the typical skepticism similar to what I use to think. The change has to come from within you. I have no doubt that you will be called. Just be ready to discard your present views when that happens. lol

 

[Cosmicteapot]

I see that you are quite young. My calling did not come until I was well into my thirties so only time will tell as to how you will react when your time comes. BTW- There is probably not much that I can say that will convince you, however, that is not my purview nor my intent. I see that you have the typical skepticism similar to what I use to think. The change has to come from within you. I have no doubt that you will be called. Just be ready to discard your present views when that happens. lol

Hahaha, not going to happen. I have been completley against religion my entire life... I even recall the teacher calling me a blasphemous little sinner when I was 5 and I was told to leave the school for not believing in God... pathetic really.

I love to debate against religion, against anyone and all comers, I dont care if your a senile 80 year old jehova's witness who happened to knock on the wrong door, I'll still debate and argue against unproven belief

I live in Australia, it's got a very high number of Atheists and agnostics, religion is laughed at here, if you are a moderate christian here (basically meaning you actually admit to someone that you believe in God) you pretty well get laughed at. We are a very secular country and even our Prime Minister is an openly admitted Atheist.