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What this is all about

Papias

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mark wrote:

Papias wrote:
Again, Martyrs44 makes a claim without any evidence.
Again! Papias makes makes third person indictments to no one over nothing. When are you going to learn, attacking the person is not the same as refuting an argument.
mark, I only asked him to supply evidence for his claim. You certainly support the idea that those making a claim should supply evidence, right?

I got a better idea, why don't you address what he said and quit trying to run him in circles.

I did. That's what asking for evidence of a claim is. Do you agree that it is justified to ask for evidence of a claim, and that doing so is not "running someone in circles"? Creationists are often seen as making claims without evidence. You seem to be reinforcing that stereotype by defending a creationist for making claims without evidence.

Talk Origins is dedicated to a single purpose, attacking the belief that God is Creator, how could that be considered anything other then atheistic materialism?

so, ...........Do you have any evidence for that claim?



Suppose you tell him what the ratio is, what it means and why anyone should trust radiometric dating?

The ratio is different for different methods. If he wants to discuss them, he can.

As far as "why anyone should trust radiometric dating", I did say that - one main reason is that it is confirmed by many other methods, including non-radiometric ones.

Then please explain why dozens of dating methods, using a wide range of different phenomena (some of which aren't even on earth), all "just happen" to confirm each other, again and again, over thousands of tests on millions of samples. Martys44, why do you think that happens?

First of all the ratios of these radiometric dating techniques are hopelessly flawed by false assumption which is why I never bothered with them. They observe the half life changes for weeks, months or a few years and project it over eons. This standard of proof is never allowed in real world science unless it supports the a priori assumption of universal common descent by exclusively naturalistic means.
You didn't answer why they all agree with both each other and the non-radiometric methods, nor did you give any support to your assertion that universal common descent is an a priori assumption, instead of a conclusion based on the evidence.

So are you done now or would you like to continue making fallacious personal attacks?

Please point out any personal attacks - did I call someone a name? Do you consider it an attack to ask for evidence?




You are being used Papias, why can't you see that?
By whom am I being used? The vast evil biologos conspiracy?


Papias


P.S. - since I doubt mark will actually present evidence that TO is atheistic, I provide this statement from TO, expecitly supporting the compatibility between TO and a belief in God: God and Evolution
 
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Marshall Janzen

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How do you know that? Describe that 'liquid' from those bowls of wrath and prove your point. The truth is we don't know what they consist of but whatever it is will result in terrible things on earth.
The text tells us what they consist of: God's wrath. But God's wrath is not something that literally fills a physical bowl. No more than churches are literally lamp stands. But, if we disagree about whether there is symbolism in Revelation, I certainly don't expect you to see symbolism in Genesis.

Hint: "...and the evening and the morning were the first day..."
Except Genesis 1 doesn't literally say that. The verb "were" does not exist where you've placed it because that sentence is not defining what a day is. And elsewhere in Scripture, evening and morning (in that order) do not describe a day, they describe a night. (For example Numbers 9:15, 21; Deuteronomy 16:4; Judges 19:9; Esther 2:14; Job 4:20, Zephaniah 3:3.) A night is the period from evening to morning.

The text literally says, "And there was evening, and there was morning, day one." In other words, after God's creative acts during the day, evening came, and then morning came, with no creative activity between them. This is describing God taking the nights off, just like a Hebrew labourer. God works during the day, ceases at night, and takes the seventh day off to be refreshed from his labour. God is being described in human terms, because the point of the structure of Genesis 1 is to create a template for the human work week. This is why the only references to the days of creation in the Old Testament are in Exodus where they are connected to the work and rest of human labourers. And, this is why the days of creation don't show up in any other creation account in Scripture. The other accounts tell of creation without making a connection to human labourers, so they don't contain periods of rest or a clearly-delineated work week.
 
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Philis

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No your not, you are harshly critical of Creationists and grossly unfair in your criticisms. I told you plainly the in Romans 5 and I Corinthians 15 the Apostle was speaking of Adam. On the rare occasions that theistic evolutionists are confronted with this fact they simply pretend that the word means 'humanity' which is absurd. You go back to the Hebrew and reject the position as an error when I am clearly talking about the New Testament usage which is always Adam. You were soundly refuted:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7669924-8/

You ignored it. This is standard theistic evolutionist rhetoric. Darwinism survives on fallacies (flawed) arguments and false assumptions, the target is personal convictions regarding the supernatural activity of God in Creation. When you couldn't make a substantive argument you resorted to an ad hominem attack which is where these arguments always go. At this point you will do one of two things, either you will abandon the thread and let another theistic evolutionist bury your error or you will simply repeat it begging the question on your hands and knees.

Did you really think I was going to roll over after that vicious indictment? I want you to understand something, that was a personal attack. You don't get to make an incendiary, fallacious argument like that and walk away like it never happened.

Bottom line, there is not way you are 'open' to both sides, your tactics and your rhetoric are straight out of the theistic evolutionist play book. Now you can post as you see fit but don't expect the pretense that you are 'open minded' to stand.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
What are you talking about? You started this off with "No your not" but you were replying to a factual statement about what was in the OP. In the OP I left this open for either side to respond to.

The point of this thread is to try to understand the opposite perspective better, and for me that means questioning the literal interpretation when it doesn't seem to make sense. I still don't have an explanation as to how we should interpret Genesis 1 literally since it seems to describe water above the stars, which according to Martyrs44 is actually a solid dome of ice (which it doesn't literally say) and that solid dome of ice is on the outskirts of our atmosphere.....yet the stars are under it....I just don't get it.

I honestly didn't know that you were referring to new testament. There's no need for your scathing reply. After you clarified that you were referring to the new testament I didn't reply because it's something I'm reading up on.

I try to be polite, hopefully you will do the same in the future. I made no ad hominem attacks. I'm sorry if you took it that way and it's too bad you thought that the appropriate response was to lash out at me.

And for the record discussing creation theology in it's context is not a defense of Darwinism. I don't even know why you would suggest that it is. I'm not a TE, I'm a theist. Do I accept evolution? It seems it could be true, but I don't understand all the science so I don't mind if it isn't either. It seems that you've tied a contextual understanding of Genesis with evolution, which seems to be a stumbling block for you. All I'm interested in is understanding the bible.
 
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mark kennedy

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Would that be Descartes' demon? Yes that is the one assumption science cannot test or verify, the reality of reality. If reality isn't real and is an illusion, science has at least shown us it is a very consistent and reliable illusion. If science isn't telling us the nature of reality, it is giving us a very detailed understanding of our matrix. The odd thing is, the one assumption science cannot verify is the assumption Creationists would insist is true, that what God created is real.

No, the assumption of Creationists are two-fold, that God is self-evident and that the things of God are evident from the things that are made.:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:20-23)​

That is, in Christian theism, an a priori, self-evident fact reflected in nature, otherwise known as natural revelation. The Summe Potens of Darwinism is this:

He (Lamarck) first did the eminent service of arousing attention to the probability of all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition. (Darwin, On the Origin of Species)​

That is your demon, a transcendent a priori assumption of naturalistic causes going all the way back to the Big Bang. Seemingly omnipotent, the principle feigns an objective omnipotence but is incapable of delivering on the scientific and philosophical coherence it promises. When it fails, it turns plunges head long into an abyss of sarcasm and skepticism.

That is the false matrix of Darwinism, that is the Summe Potens of the modern age.

Mind you, if I was going to run an illusory universe like that, I would simplify it down. You don't need to model it to the smallest sub atomic particle. It is only when the inhabitants look at the details that you need to show them, only model the hairs on fleas when they invent a microscope, you wouldn't need to decide the quantum state of a subatomic particle unless someone or something actually tried to measure it.

That sounds like a classic argument from incredulity to me. Because you don't understand then it must be in error or deliberate deception when the truth is that it is neither. The universe is real, Descartes came to the conclusion the the only reality he could be sure of was Ego Sum, Ego Cognito. If it can be measured it must be real, if it can't then you have no scientific basis for concluding it exists at all.

So tell me Assyrian, are you proud of the work you and Papias did derailing the thread and running off another Creationist?

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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What are you talking about? You started this off with "No your not" but you were replying to a factual statement about what was in the OP. In the OP I left this open for either side to respond to.

In the OP you pretended to be open to both sides but throughout the thread you have attacked Creationists without restraint. Case in point:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7669924-8/

That was just plain rude and anything but open minded.

The point of this thread is to try to understand the opposite perspective better, and for me that means questioning the literal interpretation when it doesn't seem to make sense. I still don't have an explanation as to how we should interpret Genesis 1 literally since it seems to describe water above the stars, which according to Martyrs44 is actually a solid dome of ice (which it doesn't literally say) and that solid dome of ice is on the outskirts of our atmosphere.....yet the stars are under it....I just don't get it.

You mean the point of the thread was to attack Creationists. The firmament is simply the 'expanse of the sky', nothing more. Quit pretending to be open minded because you are obviously just baiting Creationists.

I honestly didn't know that you were referring to new testament. There's no need for your scathing reply. After you clarified that you were referring to the new testament I didn't reply because it's something I'm reading up on.

For the third and final time, I mentioned the use of 'Adam' in the New Testament. You made this scathing indictment that my sources were flawed and that I was categorically wrong. If you don't know what I'm talking about the link is provided in this post as well as the one you are responding to.

One last time, In Romans 5 and I Corinthians 15 the position that 'Adam' is just another word for 'humanity' is ABSURD.

I try to be polite, hopefully you will do the same in the future. I made no ad hominem attacks. I'm sorry if you took it that way and it's too bad you thought that the appropriate response was to lash out at me.

This isn't lashing dear, it called a refutation. You made a scathing and erroneous charge and I am answering it, nothing more. I expect you to acknowledge this point and until you do I'm going to keep bringing it up. There is nothing polite about telling someone they are 'categorically wrong' by taking them out of context.

It's called a straw man argument and I don't take kindly to being dismissed as a fool.

And for the record discussing creation theology in it's context is not a defense of Darwinism. I don't even know why you would suggest that it is. I'm not a TE, I'm a theist. Do I accept evolution? It seems it could be true, but I don't understand all the science so I don't mind if it isn't either. It seems that you've tied a contextual understanding of Genesis with evolution, which seems to be a stumbling block for you. All I'm interested in is understanding the bible.

If you are really trying to understand the Bible and be open minded here let me give you a word of advice:

A text without a context is a pretext​

You took me out of context and that, my dear, is a bad habit to get into when studying the Bible. So why don't you double check the previous discussion, the Scriptures and the resources I cited and maybe we can get this back on track. Otherwise I'm going to keep bringing this up.

What do you say, wanna get back on topic or keep going in circles?

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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In case you didn't notice, the trolls ran him out of here.

The text tells us what they consist of: God's wrath. But God's wrath is not something that literally fills a physical bowl. No more than churches are literally lamp stands. But, if we disagree about whether there is symbolism in Revelation, I certainly don't expect you to see symbolism in Genesis.

The rule of thumb is that when the Bible uses symbolism it is usually indicated by a 'like' or 'as' or there is a clear indication in the immediate context that it's a comparison. Clearly, the Menorah is being used symbolically, you are not comparing apples to apples


Except Genesis 1 doesn't literally say that. The verb "were" does not exist where you've placed it because that sentence is not defining what a day is. And elsewhere in Scripture, evening and morning (in that order) do not describe a day, they describe a night. (For example Numbers 9:15, 21; Deuteronomy 16:4; Judges 19:9; Esther 2:14; Job 4:20, Zephaniah 3:3.) A night is the period from evening to morning.

Day or 'Yom' in Genesis means a regular 24 hour day. That is what it literally says and literally means. There is not indication that this is figurative language but instead the literary style of Genesis is that of an historical narrative. Christian scholarship has held this view all along and reducing the Genesis account to myth and metaphor is a modernist approach to Scripture with no bearing or relevance to Christian theism or Biblical exposition.

The text literally says, "And there was evening, and there was morning, day one." In other words, after God's creative acts during the day, evening came, and then morning came, with no creative activity between them. This is describing God taking the nights off, just like a Hebrew labourer. God works during the day, ceases at night, and takes the seventh day off to be refreshed from his labour. God is being described in human terms, because the point of the structure of Genesis 1 is to create a template for the human work week. This is why the only references to the days of creation in the Old Testament are in Exodus where they are connected to the work and rest of human labourers. And, this is why the days of creation don't show up in any other creation account in Scripture. The other accounts tell of creation without making a connection to human labourers, so they don't contain periods of rest or a clearly-delineated work week.

Nonsense, the use of 'evening and morning' is the clearest indication that the passage is referring to a normative day. The ordinal (numbering of days) is clearing indicating days in chronological order as an historical narrative with a specific references to days of the week (1-6)

I don't know where you guys get this stuff but its hopelessly erroneous and without any merit as an exposition. Genesis 1 just like the passages that follow from chapter 1-50 is an historical narrative and there is nothing in the text or the context to indicate otherwise.
 
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Philis

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In the OP you pretended to be open to both sides but throughout the thread you have attacked Creationists without restraint.
I left the thread open to both sides to respond. You know that I am not the thread right?

Case in point:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7669924-8/

That was just plain rude and anything but open minded.
This link doesn't lead me to a particular post. And I have been very open to what Martyr has been saying, but it doesn't make sense to me. That doesn't mean I'm not being open minded about it, I'm even taking the time to ask him for clarification. Why do you have it out for me?

You mean the point of the thread was to attack Creationists. The firmament is simply the 'expanse of the sky', nothing more. Quit pretending to be open minded because you are obviously just baiting Creationists.
You're the one that quoted that Strong's said that the firmament was solid. I only got into this particular topic because it's where Martyr took the conversation and I'm trying to understand what he's saying.

For the third and final time, I mentioned the use of 'Adam' in the New Testament. You made this scathing indictment that my sources were flawed and that I was categorically wrong. If you don't know what I'm talking about the link is provided in this post as well as the one you are responding to.
You need to go back to that post and see what I was responding to. You seemed to have skimmed it over and misunderstood what I was talking about.

One last time, In Romans 5 and I Corinthians 15 the position that 'Adam' is just another word for 'humanity' is ABSURD.
I get that, like I said, I didn't realize you were talking about the new testament the first time you mentioned it. After you clarified that you were talking about the new testament I didn't respond because it's something I need to read up on.

This isn't lashing dear, it called a refutation. You made a scathing and erroneous charge and I am answering it, nothing more. I expect you to acknowledge this point and until you do I'm going to keep bringing it up. There is nothing polite about telling someone they are 'categorically wrong' by taking them out of context.
I didn't say you were categorically wrong about your statement on the meaning of Adam. You said the following:

They are not given to Biblical exposition, not apt to make a defense of the credibility of Scripture at any level and rarely mention, let alone debate, theological or doctrinal issues. They are almost unanimous in their silence on the fundamentals of the Christian faith and only seem interested in engaging Creationists on a deeply personal level, criticizing their beliefs with an evangelistic zeal.

and

Frankly, they cannot boast of a single Bible scholar on this board and are grossly indifferent to the Gospel, Nicene Creed or foundational doctrines of the Christian church. They make a standard profession and become indignant if it is so much as suggested that they lack Christian conviction. Honestly, what they believe about the Bible remains a mystery, to me at least, since their sole interest in these discussions is to confront Creationist beliefs.

That is what I said seemed catagorically wrong, and I also noted that it was based on my experience, and that obviously your experience has led you to believe that. It's in post 60 if you want to read it again. You're attacking me over your own misunderstanding of what I said.

And yes, I see that your original statement I was responding to mentioned Romans and Corinthians, but I missed that there, my bad.

You took me out of context and that, my dear, is a bad habit to get into when studying the Bible. So why don't you double check the previous discussion, the Scriptures and the resources I cited and maybe we can get this back on track. Otherwise I'm going to keep bringing this up.
This applies to us both, I took you out of context when I responded by looking at the Hebrew instead of the Greek, and I admitted that last post (though you are still attacking me over it) and you have misunderstood what I was responding to with my "catagorically false" statement. You also didn't catch that I recognized it was based on our own subjective experiences and that I wasn't calling you a liar or a fool.

Hopefully we can move forward with a civil conversation. I'm doing my best to be polite here.
 
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Assyrian

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You mean Creationists don't assume what they see is real? I was talking about the assumptions of science and how Creationist agreed with the only one science could not test. Creationists make loads of assumptions, they assume they should interpret scripture, especially Genesis literally. They assume their reading of Genesis must be what God actually meant. They assume that if science contradicts their interpretation of scripture it must be science that is wrong. They assume without any evidence radioactive decay rates must have been much faster in the past.

the assumption of Creationists are two-fold, that God is self-evident and that the things of God are evident from the things that are made.:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:20-23)​
That is, in Christian theism, an a priori, self-evident fact reflected in nature, otherwise known as natural revelation. The Summe Potens of Darwinism is this:
He (Lamarck) first did the eminent service of arousing attention to the probability of all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition. (Darwin, On the Origin of Species)​
That is your demon, a transcendent a priori assumption of naturalistic causes going all the way back to the Big Bang. Seemingly omnipotent, the principle feigns an objective omnipotence but is incapable of delivering on the scientific and philosophical coherence it promises. When it fails, it turns plunges head long into an abyss of sarcasm and skepticism.

That is the false matrix of Darwinism, that is the Summe Potens of the modern age.
I would have though we get a better appreciation of God's eternal power in a 13.5 billion year old universe than a 6000 year old one.


That sounds like a classic argument from incredulity to me. Because you don't understand then it must be in error or deliberate deception when the truth is that it is neither. The universe is real, Descartes came to the conclusion the the only reality he could be sure of was Ego Sum, Ego Cognito. If it can be measured it must be real, if it can't then you have no scientific basis for concluding it exists at all.
Why has my joking suggestion quantum mechanics is evidence for the matrix got to do with an "argument from incredulity"?

So tell me Assyrian, are you proud of the work you and Papias did derailing the thread and running off another Creationist?

Have a nice day :)
Mark
Has he left? That is sad. He never tried to engage in a discussion or support his views.

You complained about Papias making 'third person indictments to no one', even though the very next sentence, Papias addressed Martyr44 directly. I know you object to being discussed in the third person yourself, so what do you make of Martyr's objections to being mentioned in the OP when he kept making what you call 'third person indictments' about me?
 
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gluadys

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Sometimes you say some of the most incredulous things. What perversion of scripture did you derive that nonsense?

I referenced the wrong chapter. Should have been chapter 12, as Mark Kennedy noted.



And what John the Baptist said:

Mark 3:9, "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

No mention of the Messiah in those verses. It merely refers to the Jews.

It mentions the power of God to raise stones up as children to Abraham. I am assuming that power exists in reference to David (or anyone else) as well.

Or do you think God can only produce stone children for Abraham and no one else?



I taught science for many years.

So did Kent Hovind, or so he claimed. Teaching science--especially if it was on a high school level--does not qualify you as knowing the theory of evolution well.

You mean to tell me you have never heard of Dr. Henry Morris, Dr. Duane Gish, Dr. Larry Vardiman, Dr. Steve Austin, Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Dr. Richard Lumsden, Dr. J.C. Sanford, etc.

I have heard of and read all of them and seen how they either a) don't know the theory of evolution or b) wittingly or not, distort the theory of evolution. Most of them did not specialize in a science relevant to evolution. And an expert speaking outside his/her area of expertise has no more authority than I do.

In fact, if they choose not to learn the theory of evolution well enough to discuss it without significant distortion, they have less authority than I do, because I have taken the time to learn what the science actually says.





you tell us that Jesus placed his own Messiahship ... in question

No, I never told you that and Jesus never did that.

What he did do was question the belief that the Messiah must be the son of David. And, of course, if the Messiah need not be the son of David, he need not have a right to the throne of David.


A question we might need to ask ourselves is this: why did Jesus question the idea that the Messiah must be the son of David? It is pretty clear that Jesus does claim to be the Messiah.
 
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mark kennedy

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I left the thread open to both sides to respond. You know that I am not the thread right?

This link doesn't lead me to a particular post. And I have been very open to what Martyr has been saying, but it doesn't make sense to me. That doesn't mean I'm not being open minded about it, I'm even taking the time to ask him for clarification. Why do you have it out for me?

I keep bringing this up because you made this argument:

What do you mean that the definition of "humanity" is absurd? Are the following sources unreliable?

Strong's H120...

You may or may not remember my original statement, it doesn't really matter because you are obviously not going to concede the point. I was talking about the New Testament usage and by now you realize that. I don't have it 'out for you', I just don't appreciate being taken out of context like that and like I said, I will keep bringing this up.

You're the one that quoted that Strong's said that the firmament was solid. I only got into this particular topic because it's where Martyr took the conversation and I'm trying to understand what he's saying.

I might have believed that had you not used the same tactic on me.

You need to go back to that post and see what I was responding to. You seemed to have skimmed it over and misunderstood what I was talking about.

No I didn't misunderstand, I know what 'firmament' means and I know what 'Adam' means. I didn't misunderstand what you were trying to do because you are clearly intending to correct Creationist errors whether they are real errors or not and you will not answer for you false accusations.

I get that, like I said, I didn't realize you were talking about the new testament the first time you mentioned it. After you clarified that you were talking about the new testament I didn't respond because it's something I need to read up on.

That's better, had you said that I would have let it go.

I didn't say you were categorically wrong about your statement on the meaning of Adam. You said the following:

They are not given to Biblical exposition, not apt to make a defense of the credibility of Scripture at any level and rarely mention, let alone debate, theological or doctrinal issues. They are almost unanimous in their silence on the fundamentals of the Christian faith and only seem interested in engaging Creationists on a deeply personal level, criticizing their beliefs with an evangelistic zeal.

and

Frankly, they cannot boast of a single Bible scholar on this board and are grossly indifferent to the Gospel, Nicene Creed or foundational doctrines of the Christian church. They make a standard profession and become indignant if it is so much as suggested that they lack Christian conviction. Honestly, what they believe about the Bible remains a mystery, to me at least, since their sole interest in these discussions is to confront Creationist beliefs.

That is what I said seemed catagorically wrong, and I also noted that it was based on my experience, and that obviously your experience has led you to believe that. It's in post 60 if you want to read it again. You're attacking me over your own misunderstanding of what I said.

No I'm not, you used Strong's Hebrew reference for Adam as a basis for telling me that my statement that 'Adam' meaning 'humanity' is 'categorically wrong', I was clear in every post since that was the issue I was addressing. I still stand by what I said previously and will be happy to discuss them at any length but not until this point is finally cleared up.

And yes, I see that your original statement I was responding to mentioned Romans and Corinthians, but I missed that there, my bad.

That's all this was about, see how easy that was.

This applies to us both, I took you out of context when I responded by looking at the Hebrew instead of the Greek, and I admitted that last post (though you are still attacking me over it) and you have misunderstood what I was responding to with my "catagorically false" statement. You also didn't catch that I recognized it was based on our own subjective experiences and that I wasn't calling you a liar or a fool.

It most certainly does not apply to us both, I was explicit with regards to the issue I was addressing. Perhaps you didn't mean to but calling someone 'categorically wrong' in that context is highly inflammatory. So now you know that my sources are reliable and the word 'Adam' in the New Testament means, 'the first man, the parent of the whole human race'.

That's all I needed.

Hopefully we can move forward with a civil conversation. I'm doing my best to be polite here.

I certainly hope so, it's always nice when people keep a civil tongue in these discussions without resorting to personal attacks.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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gluadys

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No, the assumption of Creationists are two-fold, that God is self-evident and that the things of God are evident from the things that are made.:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:20-23)​

That is, in Christian theism, an a priori, self-evident fact reflected in nature, otherwise known as natural revelation. The Summe Potens of Darwinism is this:

He (Lamarck) first did the eminent service of arousing attention to the probability of all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition. (Darwin, On the Origin of Species)​


However, since neither Lamarck nor Darwin were atheists, neither of them saw "the result of law" to be a banishing of God. In fact, in terms of Romans, they would see the laws of nature as among those things of God which clearly establish His power and Godhood.


The near-heresy that modern YECism has come to is to banish God from the ordinary processes of nature so that it cannot be a revelation of God. Only those exceptional events we call miracles are to be counted as revealing the power of God.

That is not the biblical teaching--which sees God revealed in the growth of lilies, the feeding of lions and an eagle bearing her young on her wings. And it was not the belief of those scientists of the 18th and 19th century who studied the laws of nature as a way to "think God's thoughts after him."

The demon here is the restriction of God's self-revealing activity to occasional special events. And that demon is fully alive in YECism.




That sounds like a classic argument from incredulity to me. Because you don't understand then it must be in error or deliberate deception when the truth is that it is neither. The universe is real, Descartes came to the conclusion the the only reality he could be sure of was Ego Sum, Ego Cognito. If it can be measured it must be real, if it can't then you have no scientific basis for concluding it exists at all.

If you want to quote Latin, please learn it.

It is "Cogito, ergo sum" (cogito=I think, ergo=therefore, sum=I am.)

If you can't learn the Latin, please stick to the English.

Descartes supreme insight applies only to the reality of himself, and even then only to the reality of his mind. It doesn't preclude the action of Descartes' demon. It doesn't guarantee the physical reality of the universe, only the reality of a mind that apparently perceives it.

We are still in the situation of Christians of all time in that we declare as a matter of faith that "We believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth..." We assume the universe is real because, like Descartes, we believe God is real and God does not deceive us, so therefore the world of our apparent experience is a real world and our experience of it is real. (with some individual exceptions due usually to some form of mental illness).
 
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mark kennedy

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Mark you've taken everything I've said out of context. I see no purpose in trying to get through to you on this.

Have a nice day,:wave:
Philis

Philis,

You took me out of context, made a scathing indictment and an erroneous correction and I simply refuted your argument. Don't be such a spoil sport, you can't win them all by begging the question on your hands and knees. I like how you pretended you just misunderstood, admitted your error and once the matter was resolved you make another scathing indictment.

Classic theistic evolutionist debate tactics. Rest assured, we will definitely be revisiting the subject every time you make one of these scathing indictments.

This is very disappointing, I thought you were going to be civil from now on.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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However, since neither Lamarck nor Darwin were atheists, neither of them saw "the result of law" to be a banishing of God. In fact, in terms of Romans, they would see the laws of nature as among those things of God which clearly establish His power and Godhood.

Darwin was an agnostic, never pretended to be anything else. On the Origins is 'one long argument' against special creation and that is the explicit purpose of the book as stated by the author. Darwin is rejecting God as Creator and there is no reason to conclude otherwise either in his writings or the modern forms of Darwinism being argued on here.

It's a categorical rejection of the supernatural, nothing more.


The near-heresy that modern YECism has come to is to banish God from the ordinary processes of nature so that it cannot be a revelation of God. Only those exceptional events we call miracles are to be counted as revealing the power of God.

The rejection of God as Creator is a rejection of the Nicene Creed and one of the most fundamental convictions of Christian theism. YEC is nothing more then taking the historical narratives of Genesis and the rest of the Bible as they are intended to be read by the authors.

Rejecting God as Creator and the Bible as redemptive history is the heresy of modern liberalism and calling it 'evolution' does not make the naturalistic assumptions of Darwinism compatible with Christian theism.

That is not the biblical teaching--which sees God revealed in the growth of lilies, the feeding of lions and an eagle bearing her young on her wings. And it was not the belief of those scientists of the 18th and 19th century who studied the laws of nature as a way to "think God's thoughts after him."

Some did, Darwin did not.

The demon here is the restriction of God's self-revealing activity to occasional special events. And that demon is fully alive in YECism.

The demon is the naturalistic assumptions of Darwinians who simply attack Christians for believing in the supernatural creation of the 'heavens and the earth'. The transcendent principle is applied to everything which pretends an omnipotence that was described by Danial Dennent as 'Universal Acid' that eats though everything.

Demonizing YEC is neither Christian nor is it Biblical. As a matter of fact the age of the earth has never been tied to a single Biblical doctrine and God creating the heavens and the earth is not a question. The Scriptures make it clear if you don't worship Christ as Creator you are not a Christian.


If you want to quote Latin, please learn it.

It is "Cogito, ergo sum" (cogito=I think, ergo=therefore, sum=I am.)

If you can't learn the Latin, please stick to the English.

I know what it means, I mentioned the phrase and offered my take on it. You jump right in to the ad hominem with both feet didn't you. No point in wasting any time, that's where it's going no matter what I say anyway.

Descartes supreme insight applies only to the reality of himself, and even then only to the reality of his mind. It doesn't preclude the action of Descartes' demon. It doesn't guarantee the physical reality of the universe, only the reality of a mind that apparently perceives it.

Yea I know, so what?

We are still in the situation of Christians of all time in that we declare as a matter of faith that "We believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth..." We assume the universe is real because, like Descartes, we believe God is real and God does not deceive us, so therefore the world of our apparent experience is a real world and our experience of it is real. (with some individual exceptions due usually to some form of mental illness).

I read his First Philosophy of Science and I appreciate the epistemological point he is making. How do I know, that I know, what I know? He is not saying he does not know for sure that God or the universe exists, he is saying that the only thing that he can be certain of is Ego Sum, Ego Cognito. Which, by the way, is all I said. That's when you busted in and started throwing your false accusations that Creationism is heresy which is the inevitable ad hominem attack that all theistic evolutionists are sold out to. It would not be so bad if it were not so constant.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
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Assyrian

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Mark do you ever read you own posts? What would you think if a TE ever used language like that? Is it because Philis is polite to you that you keep being so rude to her? What was her crime? Referring to you post as scathing? Read it, it was. She tried being gracious to you but you kept on being rude. There is nothing "classic TE debating tactics" here just classic frustration with rude creationism.

I really wish you would try to keep your conversations civil Mark. I really enjoy talking with you when you do.
 
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Philis

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Rest assured, we will definitely be revisiting the subject every time you make one of these scathing indictments.

This is very disappointing, I thought you were going to be civil from now on.
If you are going to be petty and childish going forward by continually bringing this up then I guess I may as well take the time to set things straight. Don't blame me for showing the errors of your posts, I was willing to leave it alone.

Your main accusation to me is that I said you were catagorically wrong about the meaning of the word Adam in the new testament. Here is my original statement in context:
They are not given to Biblical exposition, not apt to make a defense of the credibility of Scripture at any level and rarely mention, let alone debate, theological or doctrinal issues. They are almost unanimous in their silence on the fundamentals of the Christian faith and only seem interested in engaging Creationists on a deeply personal level, criticizing their beliefs with an evangelistic zeal.
Even in my short time on this subject I'd say this is catagorically false. NT Wright, CS Lewis, and other have certainly spent a great deal of time defending Christianity.

Frankly, they cannot boast of a single Bible scholar on this board and are grossly indifferent to the Gospel, Nicene Creed or foundational doctrines of the Christian church. They make a standard profession and become indignant if it is so much as suggested that they lack Christian conviction. Honestly, what they believe about the Bible remains a mystery, to me at least, since their sole interest in these discussions is to confront Creationist beliefs.
Again, my experience has led me to think that this statement of yours is catagorically wrong. But if it is your experience so be it.
The first time I used the phrase "categorically wrong" I was referring to your characterisation of TEs. This is evident by the quote that I was responding to and also by my follow up where I pointed out some TEs who have thought things through, contrary to what you said. The second time I used the phrase was also in response to what you said about TEs. I even added that it is my experience that leads me to think otherwise, and that your experience has led you to believe what you posted. By saying that I was going out of my way to make it known that I didn't think you were being dishonest or anything bad, it's simply different perspectives.

I continually tried to tell you to go back and read the context of my post, but even after quoting it in red in post 107 you still said:No I'm not, you used Strong's Hebrew reference for Adam as a basis for telling me that my statement that 'Adam' meaning 'humanity' is 'categorically wrong',

I never used the phrase "categorically wrong" in reference to your view of the word Adam. I've clearly given you the context now. If you continue to argue then you'll know why I was not going to bother trying to get through to you.

After you chastised me for it I didn't respond to you, partly because of your rudeness and partly because I need to read up on the Greek.

Then you went out of your way to chastise me a second time for it in post 92.

My response to that in post 103 contained the following:I honestly didn't know that you were referring to new testament. There's no need for your scathing reply. After you clarified that you were referring to the new testament I didn't reply because it's something I'm reading up on.

Yet after that admission you chastised me again in post 105.

I responded again in post 107 which included the following: I get that, like I said, I didn't realize you were talking about the new testament the first time you mentioned it. After you clarified that you were talking about the new testament I didn't respond because it's something I need to read up on.

Finally you responded to that by saying: That's better, had you said that I would have let it go.

As I've pointed out, I did say it earlier, I said it in my first response to you after I made the mistake, you were just too zealous in your rage to put me down that you didn't take the time to try to understand what I was saying. I fear you will probably do the same thing with this post which is why I wasn't going to bother.

You also said: That's all this was about, see how easy that was.

Yes it was easy, which I why I said I misunderstood the first time, you just didn't bother reading it.

For some reason though, you won't admit you were wrong about me making personal attacks. You have maintained this whole time that I called your statement about the meaning of Adam to be categorically wrong, which is something I've corrected you on and urged you to go back and read the context of it. I did admit my mistake right away. I even tried to take the high road and leave it alone but then you followed up by saying you would continue to bring this up.

Matthew 7
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
 
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gluadys

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Darwin was an agnostic, never pretended to be anything else.

Given that he spent a year preparing for the priesthood, and that he was a great admirer of Paley's work on design in nature as evidence of God, he either was pretending very effectively not to be agnostic or he was not always an agnostic and became so later in life.


On the Origins is 'one long argument' against special creation and that is the explicit purpose of the book as stated by the author.


Yes, it is. But it is not an argument against God, nor against creation. It is an argument that God did not miraculously specially and separately create each and every one of the 300 odd species of fruit fly in the Hawaiian islands.

Now I know that you--and today, most YECists--don't believe that God miraculously, specially and separately created each and every one of those fruit fly species either. Since the 1940s anti-evolutionists have promoted the concept of specially created "kinds" (which are not identical with species).

But Darwin was not arguing against the special creation of kinds. He was arguing against the special creation of each and every species. He was arguing in favour of something you and virtually all anti-Darwinists today fully accept: that the originally created population changed over time, evolving into a diversity of species.


Darwin is rejecting God as Creator

No, he is not, and never did. Near the end of Origin of Species he speculates a bit on how many original special creations there were (just a YECs today are speculating on how many original 'baramins' or created kinds there were). He suggests that each class of animal may have had a common ancestor. (Modern YEC prefers to set it at the rank of family).

He never suggests there were NO special creations, but (as per his acknowledgment of Lamarck's work) that subsequent changes in these created beings are what occur non-miraculously.

Tell me, how does that differ in substance from the views of modern creationists like Todd Wood or Hugh Ross? Don't they also preach that God created kinds/baramins and that subsequent to that creation, the original created kind diversified into the various species each adapted to its own particular habitat and ecological niche?

After 150 years, biblical literalists have caught up to Darwin, but can't acknowledge it because they have so thoroughly and unfairly vilified him.



It's a categorical rejection of the supernatural, nothing more.

Darwin never categorically rejected the supernatural. (As you say, he was agnostic, not a committed atheist). And the one matter he referred to natural law rather than the interposition of miracle is a matter that today's YECs, including you personally, agree with him on. Talk about irony!




The demon is the naturalistic assumptions of Darwinians who simply attack Christians for believing in the supernatural creation of the 'heavens and the earth'. The transcendent principle is applied to everything which pretends an omnipotence that was described by Danial Dennent as 'Universal Acid' that eats though everything.

Just what do you mean by "naturalistic assumptions"? Christians who accept evolution believe in a God who created nature (possibly with some miracles involved) and sustains nature in ways we refer to as natural law or natural process. How is this a rejection of Creation?

Or is it only the atheism of a Daniel Dennett that you have problems with?
Well, TEs don't like his atheism either.


Demonizing YEC is neither Christian nor is it Biblical.

Calling YECs on their poor theology is an obligation.

As a matter of fact the age of the earth has never been tied to a single Biblical doctrine

Then YECs should never denounce a person who considers the scientifically determined ages to be correct as an unbeliever or a person who is dismissing scripture. Whether they are day-age creationists, gap theologians, TEs or whatever, they are well within the bounds of acceptable interpretation of scripture. You may prefer the YEC interpretation, but you cannot defend it as the only possible interpretation consistent with Christian faith.



and God creating the heavens and the earth is not a question.


Of course it isn't.


The Scriptures make it clear if you don't worship Christ as Creator you are not a Christian.

Right. It doesn't follow however that worshipping Christ as Creator involves denying that originally created kinds (or kind, as the case may be) can change and diversify without miraculous interposition according to the capacity for adaptation endowed upon them by the Creator.




Yea I know, so what?

Descartes thought it was important not only to know that he himself, as a thinking being, really existed, but that his physical nature, and the world around him is real too. And you say "so what?" You don't think that is an important question?

Doesn't really surprise me. The reality of the physical world is a threat to YECism. And that is why I characterize YECism as being on a slippery slope toward heresy.

Christian faith absolutely affirms the reality of the world God made. In this it takes a clear position against those faiths which depict the universe as an ephemeral dream which will disappear when God wakes up. Or get packed away into oblivion when God decides to stop playing with it. Or vanish into the abyss destined for all contingent existence, since contingent existence is merely a construct of human thought.

But since the real world is at odds with the preferred YECist interpretation of scripture (which they choose to characterize as "what God said") then the real world has to go. Just throw out the fundamental doctrine of creation to save creationism. So what, indeed!





I read his First Philosophy of Science and I appreciate the epistemological point he is making. How do I know, that I know, what I know? He is not saying he does not know for sure that God or the universe exists, he is saying that the only thing that he can be certain of is Ego Sum, Ego Cognito. Which, by the way, is all I said.

You make Descartes epistemological point correctly, but Descartes did not write pastiche Latin. I gave you the correct phrase in my last post. Feel free to check it out. For example on Wikipedia

He is perhaps best known for the philosophical statement "Cogito ergo sum" (French: Je pense, donc je suis; English: I think, therefore I am), found in part IV of Discourse on the Method (1637 – written in French but with inclusion of "Cogito ergo sum") and §7 of part I of Principles of Philosophy (1644 – written in Latin).​

Instead of using the phrase correctly you write gibberish.

Ego=I, sum = I am. Ego is not normally used in Latin with a verb unless one wishes to stress the word "I". "Sum" is all that is needed to say "I am". "Cogito" is all that is needed to say "I think." Descartes, in fact, did not use the word "ego" at all. He used a similar word "ergo" which is the "therefore" that links "I think" to "I am".


As for "Cognito", that is a past participle in the dative or ablative case of the masculine singular meaning "known" i.e. a completely different verb than "think".

To say "I know" in Latin one would say "cogno" not "cognito". "Cognito" might be used in a phrase such as "this painting was done by a well-known artist" (Tabula [=picture/painting] tecnico [=by artist] bene cognito [=well-known] facta est [=was done]. The word order is typical for Latin.)

In any case, "cognito" would not be used with "ego" since, as noted "cognito" is in the dative or ablative case while "ego" is a nominative case and adjectives and participles in Latin must be in the same case as the noun or pronoun they modify. Decartes might say "Cogno" (I know) even "Ego cogno" (I know) or "Ego cognitus sum" (I am known) but not "ego cognito"


I studied Latin for five years with top marks. I am not fluent but I know the basics. It is entirely up to you if you wish to continue to publicly display your ignorance of the language. But when you do, it just comes across as pretentious.
 
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