What think ye? :)

[dfw69]

what do you think about this statement true or false?

"When rabbinic Judaism recieves Yahshua as messiah and Christianity recieves Torah then the two houses will be ' one new man'

 

[Soyeong]

what do you think about this statement true or false?

"When rabbinic Judaism recieves Yahshua as messiah and Christianity recieves Torah then the two houses will be ' one new man'

Like Joseph's brothers who didn't recognize him because he was dressed up like an Egyptian, rabbinic Jews don't recognize Yeshua because he is dressed up like a Gentile.

 

[dfw69]

Like Joseph's brothers who didn't recognize him because he was dressed up like an Egyptian, rabbinic Jews don't recognize Yeshua because he is dressed up like a Gentile.

I find It's more complicated than that based on the teachings Jews have laid down as a platform for denying him as messiah...

 

[BukiRob]

I find It's more complicated than that based on the teachings Jews have laid down as a platform for denying him as messiah...

I do think there is a lot of merit to what Soyeng stated

 

[dfw69]

A few questions I have conserning this statement is

Why must rabbinic Judaism accept him first? Does Rabbinic Judaism refers to the Judaian kingdom ? Are all rabbi in rabbinic Judaism of the tribe of Benjamin Levi and Judah ?

Secondly this statement seems to suggest that the Christian nations are of the house of Ephriam or house of Joseph ...that because Messoah was a son of Joseph his followers or the Christians are his children by faith that ..it also implies to me that the lost 10 tribes are indeed lost ...

Now if the Christians already accept messiah (who is Torah in the flesh) and believe and obey his Torah ...all that is needed for one man is for Jews to believe the good news ...

I believe there are already honest Jews and Christians who are in agreement and believe the good news that Yahshua is our righteousness in that he fulfilled the law for us... These are one new man already and a new Jerusalem is prepared for them .. A citizenship in a literal city in heaven ... But this statement seems to suggest yet a future house to be made one...Jew and gentile ..

 

[Soyeong]

I find It's more complicated than that based on the teachings Jews have laid down as a platform for denying him as messiah...

I will agree that it is more complicated that that, but I do think that is a major reason. One of the biggest reasons why Jews reject Yeshua is that Christian teach that he did away with the law, which according to Deuteronomy 13 would mean that he was a false prophet, and I think that they have a point.

 

[dfw69]

I do think there is a lot of merit to what Soyeng stated

I see where he's coming from.. The Jews see a gentile Christian Jesus ... They need to see a Judaism Yahushua to believe ..

But I'm afraid they only see MJ as a deception against Judaism ...we sort of in the same boat

 

[dfw69]

I will agree that it is more complicated that that, but I do think that is a major reason. One of the biggest reasons why Jews reject Yeshua is that Christian teach that he did away with the law, which according to Deuteronomy 13 would mean that he was a false prophet, and I think that they have a point.

I believe they see Christianity more accurately in that Yahshua did in fact seek to end the law and establish a new covenant so he was seen as a sinner deceiver worthy of death according to the law ...

Of course that is not the case ..

 

[Soyeong]

A few questions I have conserning this statement is

Why must rabbinic Judaism accept him first? Does Rabbinic Judaism refers to the Judaian kingdom ? Are all rabbi in rabbinic Judaism of the tribe of Benjamin Levi and Judah ?

Secondly this statement seems to suggest that the Christian nations are of the house of Ephriam or house of Joseph ...that because Jesus was a son of Joseph his followers or the Christians are his children by faith that is...it also implies to me that the lost 10 tribes are indeed lost ...

Now if the Christians already accept messiah (who is Torah in the flesh) and believe and obey his Torah ...all that is needed for one man is for Jews to believe the good news ...

I believe there are already honest Jews and Christians who are in agreement and believe the good news that Yahshua is our righteousness in that he fulfilled the law for us... These are one new man already and a new Jerusalem is prepared for them .. A citizenship in a literal city in heaven ... But this statement seems to suggest yet a future house to be made one...Jew and gentile ..

Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

This is the condition for Christ's return is that the Jewish people accept him. I don't put any stock in the two-house movement because the OT talks about Gentiles coming to faith, so there is no need to try to say that they are one of the lost tribes.

 

[dfw69]

Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

This is the condition for Christ's return is that the Jewish people accept him. I don't put any stock in the two-house movement because the OT talks about Gentiles coming to faith, so there is no need to try to say that they are one of the lost tribes.

But isn't that kinda what Paul is teaching the Gentiles? That in faith we are children of Abraham? And heir of the promises ?

 

[BukiRob]

A few questions I have conserning this statement is

Why must rabbinic Judaism accept him first? Does Rabbinic Judaism refers to the Judaian kingdom ? Are all rabbi in rabbinic Judaism of the tribe of Benjamin Levi and Judah ?

Secondly this statement seems to suggest that the Christian nations are of the house of Ephriam or house of Joseph ...that because Jesus was a son of Joseph his followers or the Christians are his children by faith that is...it also implies to me that the lost 10 tribes are indeed lost ...

Now if the Christians already accept messiah (who is Torah in the flesh) and believe and obey his Torah ...all that is needed for one man is for Jews to believe the good news ...

I believe there are already honest Jews and Christians who are in agreement and believe the good news that Yahshua is our righteousness in that he fulfilled the law for us... These are one new man already and a new Jerusalem is prepared for them .. A citizenship in a literal city in heaven ... But this statement seems to suggest yet a future house to be made one...Jew and gentile ..

That work is not going to be done by man and man's thinking. Once the veil is removed from their eyes they will see Yeshua as clear as you see you see him

 

[dfw69]

One of the biggest lie is that Christians are responsible for the death of countless Jews that Yahushua teaches us to kill the Jews ...

No where in scripture does it say to rise up and kill Jews ... In fact there are warnings against such behavior and sever punishment ..

A true Christian must love all men forgive sin love enemies judge not condemn not turn other cheek have mercy.. not war kill steal ..anyone who does not do these things but the opposite of his commandments are not Christians at all but wolves in sheeps clothing using the scriptures to harm others for an evil agenda.... In the name of Christianity They do evil .. But By their fruits you know them...

 

[Soyeong]

I believe they see Christianity more accurately in that Yahshua did in fact seek to end the law and establish a new covenant so he was seen as a sinner deceiver worthy of death according to the law ...

God's law is a reflection of His holy, righteous, and good character and it is His instructions for how to act in line with his character, so saying that Yeshua came to do away with God's law is a bit like saying that he came to do away with His character. The way to act in line with God's character existed from the beginning and exists independently of any covenants, and did not change between any of God's covenants. Even if God had made no covenants with man, the right way to live would still be according to His character.

In Matthew 5, Jesus was about to contradict what the teachers of the law of his day were saying about the law, which would have sounded to his audience like he was abolishing the law, so he preceded that by assuring them that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, which he then proceeded to do six times by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. Christ came not to end the law, but to show us how to obey it, and gave us a perfect example to follow of how to obey it, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). The New Covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and we are also told to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10), which means we are told to follow God's instructions in His law for how to act in line with His character.

But isn't that kinda what Paul is teaching the Gentiles? That in faith we are children of Abraham? And heir of the promises ?

There is a difference between saying that Gentiles are grafted into Israel through faith in Messiah (Ephesians 2:19) and saying that Gentiles are actually one of the lost tribes.

 

[dfw69]

God's law is a reflection of His holy, righteous, and good character and it is His instructions for how to act in line with his character, so saying that Yeshua came to do away with God's law is a bit like saying that he came to do away with His character. The way to act in line with God's character existed from the beginning and exists independently of any covenants, and did not change between any of God's covenants. Even if God had made no covenants with man, the right way to live would still be according to His character.

In Matthew 5, Jesus was about to contradict what the teachers of the law of his day were saying about the law, which would have sounded to his audience like he was abolishing the law, so he preceded that by assuring them that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, which he then proceeded to do six times by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. Christ came not to end the law, but to show us how to obey it, and gave us a perfect example to follow of how to obey it, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). The New Covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and we are also told to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10), which means we are told to follow God's instructions in His law for how to act in line with His character.



There is a difference between saying that Gentiles are grafted into Israel through faith in Messiah (Ephesians 2:19) and saying that Gentiles are actually one of the lost tribes.

That's true...

I should not debate the law on this forum ..so I will agree with you..

 

[Soyeong]

One of the biggest lie is that Christians are responsible for the death of countless Jews that Yahushua teaches us to kill the Jews ...

No where in scripture does it say to rise up and kill Jews ... In fact there are warnings against such behavior and sever punishment ..

A true Christian must love all men forgive sin love enemies judge not condemn not turn other cheek have mercy.. not war kill steal ..anyone who does not do these things but the opposite of his commandments are not Christians at all but wolves in sheeps clothing using the scriptures to harm others for an evil agenda.... In the name of Christianity do evil .. By their fruits you know them...

I would agree that Yeshua does not teach us to kill Jews, but it is false to say that Christians haven't been responsible for the deaths of countless Jews. That is not to say that Jews were innocent of any wrongdoing, but history shows that their blood is on our hands. I recommend reading Dr. Michael Brown's book Our Hands Are Stained with Blood.

 

[dfw69]

That work is not going to be done by man and man's thinking. Once the veil is removed from their eyes they will see Yeshua as clear as you see you see him

Perhaps when the spirit of the lord is poured out in the future will remove the veil...

What does the veil represent?

 

[dfw69]

I would agree that Yeshua does not teach us to kill Jews, but it is false to say that Christians haven't been responsible for the deaths of countless Jews. That is not to say that Jews were innocent of any wrongdoing, but history shows that their blood is on our hands. I recommend reading Dr. Michael Brown's book Our Hands Are Stained with Blood.

See they fooled you too...

How can you say Jesus followers (Christians) that believe and obey thou shall not kill are responsible?

 

[dfw69]

I would agree that Yeshua does not teach us to kill Jews, but it is false to say that Christians haven't been responsible for the deaths of countless Jews. That is not to say that Jews were innocent of any wrongdoing, but history shows that their blood is on our hands. I recommend reading Dr. Michael Brown's book Our Hands Are Stained with Blood.

You should have said wolves in sheeps clothing are responsible not "Christians " for a Christian would obey his masters commandments to judge not and condemn not...

If a Christian obeys his master will he not receive his masters reward i.e. Resurrection and trip to heaven?

But what will a wolve in sheeps clothing receive ?... Will he not reap what he sowed?

 

[Soyeong]

Perhaps when the spirit of the lord is poured out in the future will remove the veil...

What does the veil represent?

The veil represents being able to read the Torah and not being able to see that it is all about Yeshua.

See they fooled you too...

How can you say Jesus followers that believe and obey thou shall not kill are responsible?

Christians still sin and to that extent are not following what Yeshua taught, yet we still say they are Christians. However, there is a line that someone can cross where we can judge that someone isn't a Christian. If you want to get down to it, Jesus taught to obey the law through his words and actions, and not many Christians follow that example. So if you want to exclude them from being Christians, then that's one thing, but this nevertheless happened among the main branch of people identifying as Christians.

You should have said wolves in sheeps clothing are responsible not "Christians " for a Christian would obey his masters commandments to judge not and condemn not...

If a Christian obeys his master will he not receive his masters reward i.e. Resurrection and trip to heaven?

But what will a wolve in sheeps clothing receive ?... Will he not reap what he sowed?

In order to judge that someone is a wolf in sheep's clothing inherently requires judging them. There are many verses where we are told to judge others, so it's not that we aren't to judge others, but we aren't to judge others unrighteously. For example:

Galatians 6:1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

How can we judge that someone is caught in a sin if we aren't to judge them?

 

[dfw69]

The veil represents being able to read the Torah and not being able to see that it is all about Yeshua.

I see

Christians still sin and to that extent are not following what Yeshua taught, yet we still say they are Christians. However, there is a line that someone can cross where we can judge that someone isn't a Christian. If you want to get down to it, Jesus taught to obey the law through his words and actions, and not many Christians follow that example. So if you want to exclude them from being Christians, then that's one thing, but this nevertheless happened among the main branch of people identifying as Christians.

They may claim to be Christian and people may identify them as Christians but because they fail to walk as Jesus walked they cannot be a Christian for a Christian is known by his fruits ....

In order to judge that someone is a wolf in sheep's clothing inherently requires judging them. There are many verses where we are told to judge others, so it's not that we aren't to judge others, but we aren't to judge others unrighteously. For example:

Galatians 6:1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

How can we judge that someone is caught in a sin if we aren't to judge them?

What I mean by judging is to stand in court against him to find sin and condemn by the law to death... This only should God do not man

But others have already judge in their minds ,say the Jews for unbelief , and are ready to condemn them to death ... This is not supposed to be Christian behavior ...true Christians must walk in accordance to his laws ...

I don't believe in judging righteously according to the law it leads to hate and condemnation ... I believe if one judges according to the law that he will also reap what he sowed and be judged by the law...this type of behavior leads to separation from loved ones...