What sins did he die for?

[whatilove]

This doesn't make sense to me. I know it's probably pretty basic, and I hope I'll get a quick and reasoned answer. It's a bit of a jumble, so bear with me.

What sins did Jesus die for?

The Sin of Eve? How was it even a sin, if Eve didn't know wrong? Were we punished for 2000 years for a sin that had nothing to do with us, committed by a person who had no idea what they were doing?

Our sins today? So Jesus has stopped me from going to hell by dying? Then what's the point of keeping any law at all? Why does Jesus need us to accept and believe in him so very much? If he us benevolent, and omnipotent, and omniscient, and someone dies without accepting him, but lived a good and moral life, does he forgive the deceased? Or send him to hell? If the former, why worship him at all? Why accept him as saviour?
Why worship God at all, if all he needs is a live well lived to send you to heaven?

In fact, why is there sin at all? If god is omni, then why does he allow people to commit sins and send them to Hell? He either created sins or tolerates them, right? So is he moral at all?

What is this being Satan? Does he exist? Why does he exist? Why doesn't god just get rid of him, thereby getting rid of sin, thereby sending nobody to hell?

And finally, why does God want belief so so much? If he designed everything, he must be a very intelligent scientist, to make such marvelous adaptions. Wouldn't he prefer morality, or reason, or logic to blind faith?

These questions are what led me from R. Catholicism to atheism. I came here for reasoned answers to these questions. I hope I find them. Thank you.

 

[ittarter]

What sins did Jesus die for?

This assumes the centrality of the atonement theory with respect to Jesus' death. Other considerations are missing.

The Sin of Eve? How was it even a sin, if Eve didn't know wrong? Were we punished for 2000 years for a sin that had nothing to do with us, committed by a person who had no idea what they were doing?

Adam and Eve did something they were told not to do, and frankly, that action resulted in both benefits and consequences. We are free to choose our own destiny and determine our own right and wrong, but we will forever feel that alienation from that which is universal, eternal, infinite. Well, some say that being a Christian mediates that alienation, at least to some degree.

Our sins today? So Jesus has stopped me from going to hell by dying? Then what's the point of keeping any law at all? Why does Jesus need us to accept and believe in him so very much? If he us benevolent, and omnipotent, and omniscient, and someone dies without accepting him, but lived a good and moral life, does he forgive the deceased? Or send him to hell? If the former, why worship him at all? Why accept him as saviour?
Why worship God at all, if all he needs is a live well lived to send you to heaven?

Boy a lot of questions here. It's too bad that questions caused you to abandon your heritage.

I don't really get the whole guilt-before-God thing, either. But I want to. I'd like to know in the deepest part of my being that I am responsible to a higher power for the way in which I choose to live my life. And I think that's the essence of sin and forgiveness.

In fact, why is there sin at all? If god is omni, then why does he allow people to commit sins and send them to Hell? He either created sins or tolerates them, right? So is he moral at all?

The mere existence of evil is, at its heart, probably the most difficult question for Christians to really answer. The dilemma is exactly as bad as you put it. The difference is that for Christians, the reality of God is more potent than the reality of this logical conundrum. The battle is won experientially. There are ways to rationalize the existence of evil but honestly all of them quickly come to a grinding halt.

It reassures me that atheism must also attempt to explain the existence of evil, and none of its attempts are very convincing to me, either. It's an impossible reality for anyone, if you're taking it metaphysically. As a non-metaphysical critic, I find it much easier to examine the existence of evil from an anthropological and sociological perspective. (Of course, that method is in itself pretty secular. Ah, the irony.)

What is this being Satan? Does he exist? Why does he exist? Why doesn't god just get rid of him, thereby getting rid of sin, thereby sending nobody to hell?

Satan and God were good fishing buddies and go way back, so God gives him some leeway. Seriously, I think that my previous answer covers this paragraph as well.

And finally, why does God want belief so so much? If he designed everything, he must be a very intelligent scientist, to make such marvelous adaptions. Wouldn't he prefer morality, or reason, or logic to blind faith?

There are many Christians who have come to realize that belief isn't as important as Sunday School taught them it was. For me, I had to give up belief and focus on life, love, peace, hope -- you know, less cognitive, more action-oriented. Christianity is more flexible than you give it credit for.

These questions are what led me from R. Catholicism to atheism. I came here for reasoned answers to these questions. I hope I find them. Thank you.

Whatever answers people give you will just make you ask more questions. You're interpreting the world in a certain way, now, and the law of self-preservation says that continuing in one direction is easier than making a 180 -- especially if it's the second or third time. Forgive me for mixing metaphors.

The thing of it is, I don't believe that what's going on with you is merely a battle of logical argument. Something happened that made you leave Catholicism -- or maybe many small things. Very few people change their religion by virtue of a long list of rhetorical questions. And those that do certainly wouldn't be looking for those questions to be answered on an apologetics subforum.

You don't know me, but it would be pretty neat if you went beyond the list of questions and revealed something about yourself. We might actually get somewhere.

Your move, friend.

 

[singpeace]

whatilove,

There is only one sin mentioned that is not forgiven: the blaspheming of the Holy Ghost. The original New Testament scriptures were written in Greek. The word in Greek for this sin means for one to speak evil of and to rail against. This would be with the intention of keeping others from salvation by lying and speaking evil things about the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32 “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

 

[beforHim]

ittarter is pretty much spot on- no matter how many answers you get, more questions come. No matter how logical it is, experiences can drie us away. BUT-

I do realize that answers to questions can definitely help, so let me give you a few:

The Sin of Eve? How was it even a sin, if Eve didn't know wrong? Were we punished for 2000 years for a sin that had nothing to do with us, committed by a person who had no idea what they were doing?

If Eve didn't have the concept of "right and wrong", she at least knew she wasn't supposed to eat the apple or else stuff would not go as planned.

And don't worry, there are actually Christians (like myself) who don't think that we are punished for Eve's sin. Original sin- I don't buy it. Although it seems to be a "required belief" in order to be Christian, it's not. This aswer also suffices for the devil question you asked.

Our sins today? 1)So Jesus has stopped me from going to hell by dying? Then what's the point of keeping any law at all? 2)Why does Jesus need us to accept and believe in him so very much? 3)If he us benevolent, and omnipotent, and omniscient, and someone dies without accepting him, but lived a good and moral life, does he forgive the deceased? Or send him to hell? If the former, why worship him at all? Why accept him as saviour?
Why worship God at all, if all he needs is a live well lived to send you to heaven?

1) It shows you love Him. If I wash the dishes and clean the toilet like my wife asked me, and even sweep the floors and try not to crack jokes she hates (as a side bonus to her)- I'd say that's being more loving than someone who snuffs their wife's requests and makes the jokes because "I don't care what you think, I like them!"

2) You either believe or you don't. It's not that Jesus wants us to believe in Him a x-amount, or else into the metaphorical flames. It's either you say "Yes God, I'd like to spend eternity wth you" or else you say "No God, I'm going my own way". Some people do one or the other without really realizing it right away (I'll address below.)

3) Good deeds don't "get us in". How good does your friend's deeds have to be? I'm doing better deeds than Hitler. Some would arguie that Hitler did good deeds compard to Ganghis Kahn. And against these two, Timothy McVeigh (the Unibomber) looks almost like a saint.

Also, I said I'd address the "not realize it". A few points:
+Knowing factual information about the life of Jesus while on earth (as portrayed in the four gospels) is not what saves us. We are not saved by having factual info of Jesus. When we get to the metaphorical gates of heaven, we're not going to get a "Jesus facts" exam- and anyone who makes a 70 or above is in.
+Same with theology. We are not condemned for getting beliefs wrong. Mother Theresa, most people would hazard to guess, is in heaven (only God knows for sure, but judging by fruits and all, we can make a good educated guess). Do you think she had perfect theology? When we get to the gate of heaven, God' not going to give us a theology quiz- make a 70 and you're in.

Anyone could totally make mistakes in history and theology (even so far as to be an atheist), and yet still seek after The Truth (Jesus is called "The Truth"), still seek Wisdom (Jesus is God's Wisdom), and still actually be accepting God without even realizing it. Or, on the other hand, many people might know all the right theology and have all the facts of the Bible right, but is their heart really in the right place? Only God knows the answer as to who's saved and who's not, but having correct theology and facts does not detrmine our salvation (although I think they help it along).

I suggest for a very good explination of what i just tried explaining, go here---> Veritas Media - The Veritas Forum Listen to His talks "Is Jesus the only truth" and "Can Only One Religion be True". I had to listen to them a few times each to get exactly what he was saying, but I very recently started the whole pilosophy thing.

In fact, why is there sin at all? If god is omni, then why does he allow people to commit sins and send them to Hell? He either created sins or tolerates them, right? So is he moral at all?

Love necessarily requires a choice. Hence the choice to sin (not sin itself) is required for us to have love. So unless you want fatalism which equals no love, no justice, no mercy, no etc. etc. etc. then we must accept the fact that free will is a good thing.



I hope this clears some things up. Remember, no matter what happens questions will come. I bet you even have questions your atheistic world view can't answer, yet you believe in atheism anyway. Hence, try not to let unanswered and/or poorly answered questions be a hindrance too much. Yes, satisfying logic is good, but not the end all. All world views will have their limitations to limited humans.

 

[Joveia]

This doesn't make sense to me. I know it's probably pretty basic, and I hope I'll get a quick and reasoned answer. It's a bit of a jumble, so bear with me.

What sins did Jesus die for?

The Sin of Eve? How was it even a sin, if Eve didn't know wrong? Were we punished for 2000 years for a sin that had nothing to do with us, committed by a person who had no idea what they were doing?

Somewhere in the Bible it says that God considers Adam and Eve a fair 'representative' of humanity. The reason for this seems to be that everyone would have made their choices if they had been in Adam and Eve's situation, more or less. Maybe some people would have taken a trillion years to 'Fall', but eventually everyone does. So God needs to build our eternal life with Him on a more secure foundation. That is: by allowing us to experience sin and choose to eternally turn our back on it. We express this desire by trusting that God can fix sin wholly without our help and putting our confidence in that.

Our sins today? So Jesus has stopped me from going to hell by dying? Then what's the point of keeping any law at all? Why does Jesus need us to accept and believe in him so very much? If he us benevolent, and omnipotent, and omniscient, and someone dies without accepting him, but lived a good and moral life, does he forgive the deceased? Or send him to hell? If the former, why worship him at all? Why accept him as saviour?
Why worship God at all, if all he needs is a live well lived to send you to heaven?

Heaven isn't so much a place as, it seems, a state of a relationship. When you're in love you are, of course, really happy from that relationship. That happiness is not really about where you are physically, whether you're at home or work or buying groceries, but about the relationship. So heaven involves being in an eternal loving relationship with God, our parent and creator. So it's not so much about being in a physical or spiritual place as about experiencing a relationship.

So if someone wants to be happy then they can certainly get that without caring about God. So then they wouldn't really want 'heaven' in the sense described above, surely?

Heaven is for people who want a relationship with God, and the happiness of heaven is experiencing that relationship, and also with other believers (your brothers and sisters in Christ), and also God's sense of eternal peace and contentment through His Holy Spirit. So this may have bearing on the question of why worship God or why doesn't everyone go to heaven, because not everyone will choose to go to heaven in the sense described.

In fact, why is there sin at all? If god is omni, then why does he allow people to commit sins and send them to Hell? He either created sins or tolerates them, right? So is he moral at all?

Only God can be completely perfect; 100% perfect. For something to be created means that it cannot be 100% perfect, because only the uncreated God can be. So God can only make us 99.9999...% perfect or whatever it is. So perhaps from this necessary imperfection, over an eternity, you get humanity deciding at some point to go its own way, like a small hole in a dam that gives way.

Of course, we start experiencing sin and its awfulness right from the getgo; we're not 99.99% perfect. But this is actually a mercy from God, surely, whenever it helps someone decide they want no part of it (sin) anymore and they give God permission to take away their sin.

What is this being Satan? Does he exist? Why does he exist? Why doesn't god just get rid of him, thereby getting rid of sin, thereby sending nobody to hell?

I personally think the answer to this is to be found from reading a lot of Christian testimonies about how people tend to come to God. Generally what motivates someone to accept Christ is some sort of personal crisis. Now, if Satan gets someone to destroy their own life, and that person says, "There has to be more to life than this, and I think part of it is that there is a God who loves me unconditionally, like a good parent, and there is some sort of perfect community with Him" as a result, and only a 'Satan' could make that happen, then is there something good being achieved here by Satan?

And finally, why does God want belief so so much? If he designed everything, he must be a very intelligent scientist, to make such marvelous adaptions. Wouldn't he prefer morality, or reason, or logic to blind faith?

The Bible doesn't refer to faith in this way. The Bible's analogy for faith is sort of like an airplane pilot who can't see anything in a thick fog and who trusts his instruments to know what's going on. It says in 2 Co 5:7 that we "walk by faith, not by sight". But what people miss is that sight is actually the most direct form of evidence there is, and we believe a lot of things that are based on evidence that isn't 'sight-based'. Like trusting an airplane's instruments. And 'faith' is translatable as trust or confidence. So God wants us to have a reasoned trust or confidence in Him (my own style of faith), involving a desire for a relationship with God.

 

[r035198x]

... I came here for reasoned answers to these questions...

To prove that you'd have to respond to the replies posted to you in a way that shows that you are actually reading the replies and responding to all points raised. Otherwise I (and quite a few other people) will just label you as yet another troll and simply ignore you.

 

[beforHim]

To prove that you'd have to respond to the replies posted to you in a way that shows that you are actually reading the replies and responding to all points raised. Otherwise I (and quite a few other people) will just label you as yet another troll and simply ignore you.

Yes, I hope he replies.

 

[Emmy]

Dear whatilove. So many questions and answers. Jesus gave us two Commandments, they say all what God told us in His ten Commandments. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour, ( all others friends or not friends) love them as we love ourselves. God is Love, and God wants us to learn to love ( selflessly, with no strings attached.) If Adam and Eve had loved God with all their beings, they would Never have disobeyed God, they would never have believed a lying Serpent at all. God did warn Adam and Eve: if you do eat of the Tree of Knowledge you will die. They were banished to Earth, and all Mankind afterwards. In time they all were selfish and without love for others. Jesus came and showed us God as He really is, a loving Heavenly Father, who wants us back again. Jesus died to pay the debt to God`s Holy Law, which none of us could pay, there was NO-ONE without sin, or transgressions. What Did Jesus Die For? Jesus died that we might live again, Jesus carried all our selfishness, our unloving and unforgiving, our unkindness to others, and ALSO our disregard for God, who made us in His image, unlike everything else in this Universe, we can think and reason, we know what is Good, and what is not Good. Jesus is our Saviour, Jesus is waiting to guide us back to God and where we came from. All we have to do now: REPENT, exchange our selfish and unloving character into Loving as God wants us to love. Love is the Key to Heaven, and we have free will to join our Heavenly Father, and our loving brothers and sisters for life eternal. I say this humbly and with love, whatilove. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[whatilove]

I'd like to reply, seeing as my post was overnight. I'm most fascinated by Joveia's interpretation, and what I learned most was that there are huge differences in Christianity.

I'd also like to clear up what changed me: I was a devout Catholic until about 13. Then I remember reading The God Delusion (I think we all know the author). It brought me to these questions. These are actually the questions that made me an atheist. Nothing else. If I were to get strong, reasonable answers to these questions (which I am getting so far and love), I might have changed back. Let's see.

I am led to another question: Why were we created at all? If God was just going to send us to eternal happiness and or hellfire, why make us at all? Wouldn't we be just as well off without ever having existed? We wouldn't have known it, anyway, and we suffer all the evils and pains in life today. Please note that this is not neutral. This is non-existence. Nothing would ever be created and nothing would ever have known. Isn't this as good, or better, as life?

I still don't understand the Sin of Eve, but I know many believe that has no implications today. Thank you for all your replies on this. At least I was given a better understanding.

Another. If God is 100% fully fully perfect, then everything he created should be perfect, right? Otherwise he's just 99.99% perfect. A conundrum? Creations cannot be 100% perfect, but because they are not 100% perfect, the creator is also not 100% perfect.

I'm bamboozled by the amount of replies. It's pretty early morning here- I'll try to give a follow-up soon. For now, I must go. Thanks to all replies past and future.

 

[ittarter]

One the foulest mistakes a young reader like yourself can make is to get all your information from less-than-sympathetic sources. Dawkins is a prime example. There's a great Hebrew proverb that says,

The first to plead his case seems right
Until another comes and examines him.

You need to read both sides of the story before reaching a conclusion.

 

[bling]

I am led to another question: Why were we created at all? If God was just going to send us to eternal happiness and or hellfire, why make us at all? Wouldn't we be just as well off without ever having existed? We wouldn't have known it, anyway, and we suffer all the evils and pains in life today. Please note that this is not neutral. This is non-existence. Nothing would ever be created and nothing would ever have known. Isn't this as good, or better, as life?

I still don't understand the Sin of Eve, but I know many believe that has no implications today. Thank you for all your replies on this. At least I was given a better understanding.

Another. If God is 100% fully fully perfect, then everything he created should be perfect, right? Otherwise he's just 99.99% perfect. A conundrum? Creations cannot be 100% perfect, but because they are not 100% perfect, the creator is also not 100% perfect.

I'm bamboozled by the amount of replies. It's pretty early morning here- I'll try to give a follow-up soon. For now, I must go. Thanks to all replies past and future.

OK, I will start with your latest questions and work back if I have time.

Why were we created?

A God that has been around forever would have the best of the best by all standards. Of all God’s attributes the best “Love” would be the greatest, controlling all other attributes (Love is the most power force in all universes). God which is described as Love would be compelled by His Love to make beings that could Love like He Loves. Unfortunately, Godly type Love cannot be directly programmed into the being (instinctive) for that love would be a robotic type of love. If God forces the Love on the being (take it or I torture you) that would not be Loving on God’s part and again would not be Godly type Love. God has to allow (give up some of his power) beings to have free will and choose (it must be a real choice and not forced) Love over some likely alternative (in our case it is the perceived pleasures of sin for a season).

We have the earthly objective (that can only be done on earth) of obtaining Godly type Love so we can Love God and others with all our heart, soul, mind and energy. Love is defined by all Christ said and did (you can also look at 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4.) Obtaining Love is accepting it as a free undeserving and unconditional gift (Charity). Man due to survival instincts does not like to accept charity especially from a Giver that paid a huge price. The easiest way to accept it is to accept God’s forgiveness (…he that is forgiven much will Love much…)

God’s objective is the most unselfish objective (an attribute of Godly Love) in that God is doing all He can to help people (those willing to accept His help since they have free will) to fulfill their objective. That “all” includes allowing Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kinds, some unwilling individuals to go to hell, and even sinning.

Adam and Eve did us a great service by showing us and them why the Garden type situation is a lousy place to fulfill our objective.

God is perfect, but we were made “very good”, but not perfect because only non created things can be perfect so Christ was perfect already having Love, but not created with Godly Love. We were made as best as possible, but it had to be us who accept Godly Love to truly be ours and not just be programmed lovers with some lesser form of Love.

 

[whatilove]

Again, I don't understand how anything can be 100% perfect if its creations are not 100% perfect. Do you understand this? It seems to me to be a paradox.

God is perfect. We are his creations. We are not perfect. Anything that creates imperfect things is by definition imperfect. Therefore, God is imperfect. Do you see my point?



Anyway, coincidence of coincidences. Today I had a near-death experience. I was sailing (any sailors here?) and I was close to capsizing, so I hiked out. At this my mainsheet (a rope connecting the sail to the boat) whipped around and I found myself being hanged by my boat. I began blacking out and inhaling water. I'm sure most of us here would have had a religious experience. I personally had an atheist experience. My first emotion was anger. I thought of how much of life I would miss, and how my family would be devastated. Then I suddenly felt content. I was rescued by a motorboat, and was resuscitated. I didn't quite realize it then, but I had a song in my head as I was strapped to my still-moving boat. That song, I now realize, was 'Imagine'. I'm not quite sure what this means- it may be that atheism is deep-seated in me, or it may mean nothing at all. But that would have been my last thought on Earth.

'And the world shall live as one'.

 

[ittarter]

Again, I don't understand how anything can be 100% perfect if its creations are not 100% perfect. Do you understand this? It seems to me to be a paradox.

God is perfect. We are his creations. We are not perfect. Anything that creates imperfect things is by definition imperfect. Therefore, God is imperfect. Do you see my point?

We don't really encounter perfection anywhere except when speaking of God, so I don't think this generalization "if the created is imperfect, the creator must be too" is very useful.

Think of it this way. God created us with the ability to choose to obey or disobey. That ability seems to me to be far more incredible than the "perfect" animals and plants and rocks and water molecules he created, which aren't "imperfect" in any moral or existential sense. So creating what ultimately became "imperfect" beings is much more impressive than, say, me writing a "perfect" programming script. I think it bespeaks God's power -- perfection of the creator has got nothing to do with it.

Anyway, coincidence of coincidences. Today I had a near-death experience. I was sailing (any sailors here?) and I was close to capsizing, so I hiked out. At this my mainsheet (a rope connecting the sail to the boat) whipped around and I found myself being hanged by my boat. I began blacking out and inhaling water. I'm sure most of us here would have had a religious experience. I personally had an atheist experience. My first emotion was anger. I thought of how much of life I would miss, and how my family would be devastated. Then I suddenly felt content. I was rescued by a motorboat, and was resuscitated. I didn't quite realize it then, but I had a song in my head as I was strapped to my still-moving boat. That song, I now realize, was 'Imagine'. I'm not quite sure what this means- it may be that atheism is deep-seated in me, or it may mean nothing at all. But that would have been my last thought on Earth.

'And the world shall live as one'.

Great song. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Anger, huh? Against whom? Sounds like it might be more of a religious experience than you think...

In any case you, as an atheist, have "religion on the brain" and really and truly are still right in the midst of your transformation. To what? Only time will tell. Don't be hasty, and don't give in to fear. Be patient, and know that given time, the windows will defog and you'll see more clearly. Masticate.

 

[whatilove]

Simple anger. Anger, not against anyone or anything, but simple anger. Not that I felt anyone was to blame, just that I was going so soon. Perhaps anger at death itself, if we must have anger against something. Perhaps it's an anger unique to near-death. Perhaps it was anger at myself for expiring so early. Perhaps it was a deep-seated dualist anger against my own body. I don't know, but it was certainly no anger against someone doing wrong to me.

 

[Joveia]

I am led to another question: Why were we created at all? If God was just going to send us to eternal happiness and or hellfire, why make us at all? Wouldn't we be just as well off without ever having existed? We wouldn't have known it, anyway, and we suffer all the evils and pains in life today. Please note that this is not neutral. This is non-existence. Nothing would ever be created and nothing would ever have known. Isn't this as good, or better, as life?

Well, I am glad you are hearing reasoned answers!

Why did God create? Consider a reality where only God exists and is perfectly happy. How much happiness does that reality have? Quite a lot. But a reality where God and billions of other people are perfectly happy has quite a lot more. So God created, I believe, because if He hadn't then the sum amount of joy, peace and contentment existing in reality would be less than it could be. This is because He is loving and it is a loving act to create something and make it wonderfully happy forever.

Of course, there is hell. But if you do the numbers, then the Bible indicates, I believe, that a significantly higher proportion of created beings end up in heaven than separated from God, overall. You have to factor in good angels, people who will be born in the 'age to come', and those outside the age/state of 'accountability' who die in this age, who, in traditional teaching, go straight to heaven (I mean, in the same way as everyone else, through accepting God's grace, but there's no period of testing for them). It might only be a 'narrow gate' for us in the age/state of accountability in this age, it seems.

Regarding hell, of course, life in hell forever is pretty bad. But the Christian view is that where end up where we want to go. After all, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13). So you get to choose, and I suppose a lot of people just would rather be separated from God. I guess the only way to believe anyone could choose hell is to believe that people could choose to spend an eternity going off and doing their own thing in a complete absence of God, rather than worship and be with God forever.

Another. If God is 100% fully fully perfect, then everything he created should be perfect, right? Otherwise he's just 99.99% perfect. A conundrum? Creations cannot be 100% perfect, but because they are not 100% perfect, the creator is also not 100% perfect.

I believe you may be working with a different metaphysical system than the one implied by this argument. The system implied by this argument is that only God can possess certain properties, and even He, though a God, cannot give these properties to creatures. It just can't be done without implying a logical contradiction, even if we don't know where the contradiction exists.

This system follows from the idea that God is the 'greatest possible being' (GPB). For there to be a 'greatest' possible being then there can't be two of them, and He/She/It can't swap places with anyone else, and He/She/It can't give 'greatest possible being' qualities to anyone else. So underlying it is an interesting metaphysical system.

So one of the properties of the 'GPB' is that only God can be completely perfect. So God can't pass on this unique property of being completely, utterly and 100% perfect to anyone else. This makes everything God makes slightly flawed to some degree when compared with God in some way. You could still, of course, make a computer program that's perfect at calculating tax returns, but it, like everything apart from God, must be lacking in some element(s) of perfection that God has.

 

[whatilove]

I'm fascinated by the idea that everyone ends up where they wanted. So if I were to die on that boat, would I 'go' were I expected- Twain's Land- the same place I was before I was born? Or am I missing something in this?

 

[bling]

Again, I don't understand how anything can be 100% perfect if its creations are not 100% perfect. Do you understand this? It seems to me to be a paradox.

God is perfect. We are his creations. We are not perfect. Anything that creates imperfect things is by definition imperfect. Therefore, God is imperfect. Do you see my point?



Anyway, coincidence of coincidences. Today I had a near-death experience. I was sailing (any sailors here?) and I was close to capsizing, so I hiked out. At this my mainsheet (a rope connecting the sail to the boat) whipped around and I found myself being hanged by my boat. I began blacking out and inhaling water. I'm sure most of us here would have had a religious experience. I personally had an atheist experience. My first emotion was anger. I thought of how much of life I would miss, and how my family would be devastated. Then I suddenly felt content. I was rescued by a motorboat, and was resuscitated. I didn't quite realize it then, but I had a song in my head as I was strapped to my still-moving boat. That song, I now realize, was 'Imagine'. I'm not quite sure what this means- it may be that atheism is deep-seated in me, or it may mean nothing at all. But that would have been my last thought on Earth.

'And the world shall live as one'.

You did not read all my post 11 if this is all you got.

If a perfect being requires; “not being made” then God cannot “make” a perfect being!
Christ was not made by God, so Christ could be perfect.
The problem is Godly type Love.
Godly type Love requires that the agent that has this Love obtained it of His own free will or always had this Love (like Christ and God). If God tries to forcibly plant Godly type Love in an agent it will not be Godly type Love, but an instinctive type of love.
If a woman was “programmed” to “love” you sacrificially, unselfishly, and intensely, you might be very happy about that love and really like it, but that would not be Godly type Love for you. If a woman choose to Love you sacrificially, unselfishly, and so intensely that there is nothing you could do to keep her from Loving you in spite of how you look, or how you act or what you have done in the past; you might think she was crazy (this is how God Loves you and wants you to have this Love). This is not a natural type of love, but is obtainable as a free undeserving and unconditional gift from God.

 

[bling]

Well, I am glad you are hearing reasoned answers!

Why did God create? Consider a reality where only God exists and is perfectly happy. How much happiness does that reality have? Quite a lot. But a reality where God and billions of other people are perfectly happy has quite a lot more. So God created, I believe, because if He hadn't then the sum amount of joy, peace and contentment existing in reality would be less than it could be. This is because He is loving and it is a loving act to create something and make it wonderfully happy forever.

Of course, there is hell. But if you do the numbers, then the Bible indicates, I believe, that a significantly higher proportion of created beings end up in heaven than separated from God, overall. You have to factor in good angels, people who will be born in the 'age to come', and those outside the age/state of 'accountability' who die in this age, who, in traditional teaching, go straight to heaven (I mean, in the same way as everyone else, through accepting God's grace, but there's no period of testing for them). It might only be a 'narrow gate' for us in the age/state of accountability in this age, it seems.

Regarding hell, of course, life in hell forever is pretty bad. But the Christian view is that where end up where we want to go. After all, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13). So you get to choose, and I suppose a lot of people just would rather be separated from God. I guess the only way to believe anyone could choose hell is to believe that people could choose to spend an eternity going off and doing their own thing in a complete absence of God, rather than worship and be with God forever.



I believe you may be working with a different metaphysical system than the one implied by this argument. The system implied by this argument is that only God can possess certain properties, and even He, though a God, cannot give these properties to creatures. It just can't be done without implying a logical contradiction, even if we don't know where the contradiction exists.

This system follows from the idea that God is the 'greatest possible being' (GPB). For there to be a 'greatest' possible being then there can't be two of them, and He/She/It can't swap places with anyone else, and He/She/It can't give 'greatest possible being' qualities to anyone else. So underlying it is an interesting metaphysical system.

So one of the properties of the 'GPB' is that only God can be completely perfect. So God can't pass on this unique property of being completely, utterly and 100% perfect to anyone else. This makes everything God makes slightly flawed to some degree when compared with God in some way. You could still, of course, make a computer program that's perfect at calculating tax returns, but it, like everything apart from God, must be lacking in some element(s) of perfection that God has.

We seem to disagree, would you read my post 11 and comment?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Again, I don't understand how anything can be 100% perfect if its creations are not 100% perfect. Do you understand this? It seems to me to be a paradox.

God is perfect. We are his creations. We are not perfect. Anything that creates imperfect things is by definition imperfect. Therefore, God is imperfect. Do you see my point?



Anyway, coincidence of coincidences. Today I had a near-death experience. I was sailing (any sailors here?) and I was close to capsizing, so I hiked out. At this my mainsheet (a rope connecting the sail to the boat) whipped around and I found myself being hanged by my boat. I began blacking out and inhaling water. I'm sure most of us here would have had a religious experience. I personally had an atheist experience. My first emotion was anger. I thought of how much of life I would miss, and how my family would be devastated. Then I suddenly felt content. I was rescued by a motorboat, and was resuscitated. I didn't quite realize it then, but I had a song in my head as I was strapped to my still-moving boat. That song, I now realize, was 'Imagine'. I'm not quite sure what this means- it may be that atheism is deep-seated in me, or it may mean nothing at all. But that would have been my last thought on Earth.

'And the world shall live as one'.

There are many fathers whose children fall short of their own standards. If I, as a father, had lived the best life I could and imparted the same values to my children and one of them turned out to be a thief and a junkie, would it make me a worse person? It's free will, and them's the breaks I'm afraid.

As a Christian turned atheist turned Christian I can tell you that there's no such thing as an "atheist experience". Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or God. It's difficult to wander around looking at the world and marvelling at the sheer randomness and lack of purpose for it, because after a while you'll spot patterns, and the random theory gets shot to bits. Then, my friend, you're on the slippery slope back to acceptance and belief. Trust me on this one.

Let's analyse your experience:

You felt anger, a common theistic reaction to impending doom. You thought about the life you would miss? Really? And where would "you" be when you were missing it? When an atheistic life ends then all knowledge of continuing life ends with it surely? You cared about the devastation your family would feel. Why? The bag of nuts and bolts you are would not be capable of experiencing their pain after your death. And if it came from your love for them then define that love and it's source. And then contentment. None of this sounds like a convinced atheist to me.

I speak from the experience of both camps. as an atheist I felt eventually that I was making up just as much to fill in the emptiness and unknowns that I'd always felt Christians did. God didn't seem that ridiculous any more.

Think it through a little more.

 

[ittarter]

Simple anger. Anger, not against anyone or anything, but simple anger. Not that I felt anyone was to blame, just that I was going so soon. Perhaps anger at death itself, if we must have anger against something. Perhaps it's an anger unique to near-death. Perhaps it was anger at myself for expiring so early. Perhaps it was a deep-seated dualist anger against my own body. I don't know, but it was certainly no anger against someone doing wrong to me.

Okay. Cool. Thanks for clarifying.