• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

WHat side are you on???

ThePhoenix

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2003
4,708
108
✟5,476.00
Faith
Christian
Let's dissect a drdino article for everyone's amusement. This guy is full of it.


__________________________________________________________
The “Secret” is Safe

CRYTOGRAPHY REQUIRES A MIRACLE TO DEFEAT

Our nation’s security depends upon the ability to safeguard classified information, preventing our adversaries from acquiring knowledge about our intentions, methods, identities, capabilities, and many other subjects. One of the methods employed to secure this information is cryptography, which uses the principles of mathematics in probability in the formation of coding systems that encrypt sensitive communications. In fact, this is the domain of the world’s largest security organization, the National Security Agency, which is responsible for the development, implementation, and oversight of all cryptographic systems used to protect United States government sensitive and classified communications.

The actual method in which this security is achieved is in principle quite simplistic—it is ultimately very simple mathematics—though the numbers are quite staggering, even utilizing older cryptographic systems. Using the old style computer “punched tape” as an example, it can be seen just how the protection can be relied on with absolute certainty (absent obviously, human failure). One particular protocol that the old punched tape computers used had sections of 32 columns, with 8 positions in each column, residing on one inch wide paper tape. Each “position” either had a hole punched through or did not; to the computer, this meant either a “one” or a “zero” in binary coding as the tape passed through the reading machine. Each position then has 2 possibilities.

Since each position has 2 possibilities, each column of 8 positions has 256 total possibilities for that column, shown in the math function below:

Position: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 256

Since there are 32 columns, the total possibilities for each section is calculated by multiplying the 256 possibilities of each column for the number of columns, or:

256 x 256 x 256 . . . etc., for 32 times, which equals approximately
1 x 1076.
This is a number much too large for the human mind to understand; the total number of atoms in the entire universe is estimated to be around 1080. There are multiplied billions of atoms in the ink in the period at the end of this sentence.

The communications protected in this hypothetical encoding could be analyzed by the comparison of the amount of time it would take to randomly arrive at the correct combination for the “key” used in encrypting the data. Here an arbitrary and incredibly high figure is developed for the number of combination “tries” for a given time period is used to determine the relative security of the information encrypted. For example, if there were only 60 combinations possible, and each “try” takes one minute, the relative value of one hour of “crypto-security” would be assigned. Considering the advent of high speed computers, capable of billions of calculations per second, the arbitrary figure of 100 trillion calculations per second would provide a wide margin of safety. Assuming that the minimum crypto-security desired is ten years, the calculation would proceed as:

100 trillion/sec. x 60sec./min. x 60min./hr. x 24hrs/day x 365days/year x 10 years.

The total number of “tries” accomplished in the foregoing attempt is around 1.31 x 1022, a very large number, but is still far short of the total of 1 x 1076. To determine just how close the attempt came over the hypothetical ten-year attempt, the number of “tries” performed is subtracted from the total possibilities:

1 x 1076
- 1.31 x 1022
1 x 1076

Notice that the result of subtracting the combination “tries” from the total results in the same number as the total; with numbers this large, mathematics does not work in the same concepts most understand. Indeed, it is difficult to comprehend how a number such as 10 to the 22nd power (1017 is the state of Texas filled to two feet deep with half-dollars) removed from anything else has no effect on the answer. It does indeed have an effect, though the first number is actually so large that the difference between the two in this case is so small that a scientific computer, using exponential notation, cannot calculate it. In other words, given the total of “tries” (at 100 trillion per second for 10 years) it is the same as if no try at all had occurred; there is no chance at solution.

Another way of expressing the impossibility of randomly arriving at the correct combination can be seen by dividing the total (1 x 1076) by the number of “tries” (1.31 x 1022) which provides the number of cycles of the ten years would be required before all of the combinations had been tried. This equals approximately 1054; which means that performing 100 trillion combinations per second for ten years would require 10 followed by 54 zero’s repetitions of the ten-year attempt. Just 1012 repetitions would require 10 trillion years!

It would seem obvious and perhaps gross understatement to say that a miracle would be required to randomly or accidentally arrive at the correct combination; in our hypothetical cryptographic system, the security of our communications is quite safe. Yet this analogy is actually quite closer to every human’s daily experience than most would believe, and much more important than one can imagine.
__________________________________________________________
And this, my friends, is why we do not let amatuers near our nation's secrets. I have no idea how he arrived at this analysis of cryptography, except to say that it seemed convienent for him. RSA is in no way based on this "system" I have no idea what he's babbling about for that entire cryptography section. Probably read some kids science article. Anyways -refution

The system for cryptography Hovind presents here is ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous to consider it unbreakable. Simple frequency analysis would suffice. You simply look patterns that are likely to occur frequently (IE "to" at the begenning of letters), (Pentagon in the header of letters addressed to the pentagon), etc. Quickly you find a match, boom system is busted. This occurs because we're not shooting in the dark We can make educated guesses. Now can evolution make educated guesses? The answer is yes. Transmission of genetically viable information occurs, transmission of nonviable information doesn't. To use hovinds 32 column example, lets say that every time you guessed the right combination of two numbers someone told you. Then it would just be 16 256x256 problems, easily solveable in maybe a minute. Thus, Hovind totally misrepresents evolution with a dud arguement.

Uh, oh here we go again, the second half...
__________________________________________________________
LIFE REQUIRES AN EVEN BIGGER MIRACLE

Evolutionists contend that various chemicals (conveniently collocated) bonded producing complex chains of enzymes, proteins, fats and fatty acids, among many other compounds, that eventually formed the first living cell. These chains are very much like the previous analogy of cryptographic systems in that quite literally, these compounds record information just as information is encoded in a cipher. In fact, this is how scientists believe DNA actually works, calling it the “Blueprint of Life,” minor changes in the sequences having drastic results in the organism.

The evolutionary premise is that these compounds, gathered together in a precise, ideal environment, and given some “spark” or infusion of energy, formed the first living cell, the chains of enzymes, proteins, and DNA “accidentally” or randomly arranged in the one particular combination to achieve life. The mathematical analogy of the hypothetical crypto-system previously detailed can be used to illustrate the probability of this occurrence, thereby providing a relative certainty (or uncertainty) that the evolutionary stance is “safe.”

The minimum number of enzymes for the most simple, single celled organism to live is around 250; these enzymes exist in a sort of string, or perhaps better, a chain, each link being a particular enzyme which must appear at that particular position. Just as in the example of cryptography, margin of safety calculations are generally performed on an exponential order of magnitude; that is, where there could be failure, it must be on the side of security. With this in mind, the question of the relative certainty of the mathematical position of evolution can be analyzed.

In this case, the margin of safety will be excessive; instead of 250 enzymes, only 1/5th that number [50] will be used (this would be roughly equal to using only 7 columns instead of 32 in the previous model). Where 50 enzymes are present, there are 3 x 1064 possible combinations (using a factorial, which in addition, assumes that each unsuccessful “try” is not repeated; random chance actually means that they can recur). Even though this number is well above the “line of impossibility” (1055) set by scientists to rule out the possibility of an occurrence, evolutionists usually respond with essentially, “given enough time, anything is possible.”

To this then the previous method can be applied to determine if that is indeed true, though the numbers will have to be “adjusted” to allow for the evolutionary scale of time. Scientists (evolutionary at least) believe that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old and required about 2 billion years to cool sufficiently to support life. Owing to the previous deference to the “margin of safety,” (and evolutionary theory needing all the help it can get) the original figure of 4.5 billion will be rounded up to 5 billion, and then multiplied by six, for a total of 30 billion years. The original arbitrary figure of 100 trillion tries per second will be retained, only instead of ten years, the process will cover the 30 billion year period. This yields a number around 2.82 x 1039; obviously still short, though the subtraction will help understand how close the ridiculously high number of 100 trillion tries per second actually is. Therefore:

3 x 1064
- 2.82 x 1039
2.999999999 x 1064

In this case, the answer actually does change somewhat, though with numbers this large it is difficult to discern exactly how much, and in turn, how close the 100 trillion “tries” per second for 30 billion years actually came. The next step is to divide the total possibilities by the total “tries” in that period to determine how many times this 30 billion-year period would have to be repeated.

The number is actually quite staggering, and every bit as hard to understand as the original: 3 x 1064 divided by 2.82 x 1039 equals 1.06 x 1024. What this means in actuality is that the 100 trillion tries per second for 30 billion years would have to be repeated a trillion, trillion times, or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. In other words, the pace of 100 trillion tries per second would have to continue for 31,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years, which is 60 trillion, trillion times the estimated age of the earth.

It should be remembered that the base used was only 1/5th of the total enzymes, calculated using a factorial, given 6 times the estimated age, and the ridiculous figure of 100 trillion tries per second. Further, not only are there 250 enzymes, there had to have been more than 2,000 proteins; the factorial alone of this number is around 3 x 105,735 (notice that the exponent itself requires a comma). Indeed, Sir Fredrick Hoyle, an eminent British mathematician and scientist, calculated the odds against the random formation of the enzymes and proteins alone at 1040,000. Yet, this does not even begin to address the more than 3 million “positions” of DNA, with its 24 possibilities on each; this number is all but incalculable—most scientists believe the number would have an exponent that would have to be expressed in exponents!
It would seem quite “safe” to say that there is very little “security” in evolution, though in this case it is not just national security that may be in jeopardy, but rather one’s eternal security. In other words, would you trust your life to such odds?
__________________________________________________________
Hovind starts this half of his article off with his previous faulty comparison. Once again he assumes everything evolved fully formed, instead of gradually evolving. Basically he postulates some creationist evolution which he then refutes.

Then he goes on, using the large number problem. Basically this can be examined by trying to map the collisions between air molecules in the room in a minute given the number of atoms in the room (assuming it's 2 meters by 2 meters by 2 meters there is 2.15x10^26 atoms, a astronomical number) the velocity of each atom (usually faster then a bullet) and the direction its traveling. You couldn't predict a thing about it, it would take hundreds of years to figure out the first second. Yet there's a lot more air in the room you're sitting in, and it somehow works.

This is needless complexity. By assuming that the DNA chains had to form whole, by chance, he kills his arguement (or at least that section of it).

He makes it sound like science, and he does it well. But he's just plain a quack.
 
Upvote 0

Gracchus

Senior Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
7,199
821
California
Visit site
✟38,182.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
TomInCT said:
I just really care all that much to hear people argue about proving someone's credentials.
I think the revelation that Hovind claims credentials that he did not in fact earn is a significant factor in the evaluation of his reliability.


"TomInCT" said:
The last how many posts have been dedicated to attepting to discredit Mr. Hovind?
Every person who has spent any time in an evolution, creationism forum becomes familiar with "Doctor" Hovind.
He even embarrasses other YEC's. Several persons have pointed out that fact to you.

"TomInCT" said:
That's pathetic.
Hovind outrages religion, science and common sense. What's pathetic is that people believe him.

"TomInCT" said:
The only reason you guys are here are to try to discredit him?
No. We are here to discredit the falsehoods he purveys. He is not the only one peddling falsehood.

"TomInCT" said:
Well, that just goes to show that you people place far too much emphasis on the titles like Dr., PHD.etc...
Earned degrees from accredited institutions deserve a respectful audience.

"TomInCT" said:
Even if Hovind was a high school drop-out, he still knows a whole lot of information of the subjects and the facts can't be discredited.
But the information he disseminates is not fact.

"TomInCT" said:
Let me ask one question... Do any of you believe evolution is a religion or have you been brainwashed into thinking it's just a science?
Let me pose a general question. Why do creationists argue that science is religion and then argue that "creation science" is not religion?

"TomInCT" said:
Personally, a theory that is going to try to explain to me how I was created is sure more then just science to me!!!
Sorry, but…You could be wrong?

"TomInCT" said:
...And if Hovind is such a liar, how is he still preaching God's word?
And what makes you think it is God's word he is preaching?

"TomInCT" said:
Especially facing such an up-hill battle, including Christians that oppose and critize him?
The fact that even AiG has distanced itself from him, doesn't bother you or cause you a moment's doubt? Well I have a bridge in New York city I can let you have really cheap.

"TomInCT" said:
Because maybe he has some fatcs!
Facts are accessible to anyone. It's falsehoods and foolishness that brings him his livelyhood.

Actually the beginning, middle and end lines are longer because they are delimiters. The code for the delimiter is 1-1-1-1. That is to say, a space of width one. a line of width one, a space of width one, and a line of width one. Six is 1-1-1-4.
Numerals are coded as follows:
Between the beginning delimiter and the middle delimiter,
0 = 3-2-1-1

1 = 2-2-2-1

2 = 2-1-2-2

3 = 1-4-1-1

4 = 1-1-3-2

5 = 1-2-3-1

6 = 1-1-1-4

7 = 1-3-1-2

8 = 1-2-1-3

9 = 3-1-1-2

After the middle delimiter the coding is reversed.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/upc4.htm 8/29/03

TomInCT, I do not understand how you could have failed to note that the delimiter is not equal to six. But then you claim the site is "bogus". What you seem to be saying is that the coding system shows the longer lines represent six, but that the coding system is incorrectly represented, because the site is "bogus", which presumably means the site is purposely trying to deceive you. I can conceive of no reason why this should happen.
Perhaps you would care to explain why the barcode system contains three sixes, though sometimes it contains more, albeit coded differently. And why is the site trying to deceive you?


(Edited for format)
 
Upvote 0

Arikay

HI
Jan 23, 2003
12,674
207
42
Visit site
✟36,317.00
Faith
Taoist
Yes, you are right, its obviously a cover up if it doesnt agree with DrDino. Lets Ignore that I made myself an all 6 barcode for fun, that can be read by bar code machines, and the 6's are not the same as the guard bars. As was just pointed out to you in another post.

Are we sure Tom isnt Joking with us?
If not, this is both funny and sad.
 
Upvote 0

Arikay

HI
Jan 23, 2003
12,674
207
42
Visit site
✟36,317.00
Faith
Taoist
I agree.
Although I have ran into people with a similiar attitude as our friend here, he does appear to be making fun of YECs (whether intentionally or unintentionally)



Pete Harcoff said:
I have a sneaking suspicion he is a non-YEC-in-disguise, trying to make YEC's look silly...
 
Upvote 0
J

Jet Black

Guest
TomInCT said:
Yeah, I am still here Akiray, sorry to disappoint you

I just really care all that much to hear people argue about proving someone's credentials...The last how many posts have been dedicated to attepting to discredit Mr. Hovind?
Granted they are ad hominem attacks. however one does have to question he motives of someone who claims to have qualifications that they don't. I really don't mind people coming here and saying "I don't know much about this but here is what I think" however if someone is desparate to use an irrelevant, or invalid qualification to back up their false claims, then they are equally guilty of appealing to authority.


the facts can be discredited though. the problem is that hoving uses hsi "doctorate" to give himself false authority so people will believe him. It works on laymen, since a layman will say "ooh you have a doctorate, you must be right" but when faced with someone else with a doctorate, or even a professor, then his doctorate is worth nothing, the only valuable thing is the evidence. This goes for anyone. Lucaspa could be a professor, but if he went round making wild unsubstantiated claims with nothing to back them up, I would have no respect for him. however he doesn't.

Let me ask one question... Do any of you believe evolution is a religion or have you been brainwashed into thinking it's just a science?
have you ever thought that you might be brainwashed into thinking that evolution is a religion? probably not.
Personally, a theory that is going to try to explain to me how I was created is sure more then just science to me!!!

well that can be our personal opinion. It is however, wrong. human beings, like it or not, are biological machines. they can be explained using science... we can explain which bits of your body think, which bits pump blood and so on. evolution is simply the study of explaining how that machine evolved. God may have added a soul, but science has never detected one yet, and science has nothing to say about it.

....And if Hovind is such a liar, how is he still preaching God's word? Especially facing such an up-hill battle, including Christians that oppose and critize him? Because maybe he has some fatcs!

or maybe because he preys on people who will believe him. I doubt hovind even has a chance of converting someone like me. not because I am "stubborn" but because all his arguments are strawmen and other fallacies. I was listening to a radio broadcast of him earlier, where he was discussing the primordial soup, and they mentioned how if you get the right stuff in the right place you would get life... well he immediately jumped into a strawman here and said something along the lines of "well okay, imagine you have a blender full of what you need to make a frog, make it into a frog".... stawman... no scientist would say that....
 
Upvote 0

Gracchus

Senior Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
7,199
821
California
Visit site
✟38,182.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Pete Harcoff said:
I have a sneaking suspicion he is a non-YEC-in-disguise, trying to make YEC's look silly...

Are there any real creationists out there? I would have a better opinion of H. sapiens if there weren't.
 
Upvote 0

Plan 9

Absolutely Elsewhere
Jul 7, 2002
9,028
686
72
Deck Six, Cargo Bay Two; apply to Annabel Lee to l
Visit site
✟27,857.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private

Thought 1. Whatever this is, it isn't a description of evolution.
Thought 2. You aren't the arbiter of what God I believe in.
Thought 3. I question whether I must choose a 'side'.
 
Upvote 0

Michali

Teleologist
Aug 1, 2003
2,287
36
40
Florida
✟25,139.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Gracchus said:
Are there any real creationists out there? I would have a better opinion of H. sapiens if there weren't.

I think the real one's don't bother to prove themselves in a science forum. Those who try, eventually end up not bothering. Christianity is more appealing in a philosophical debate.
 
Upvote 0

ObbiQuiet

Eating Heart
Jul 12, 2003
4,028
154
39
The Desert
Visit site
✟4,934.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
obediah001 said:
You Evil-outionists all ways & quickly sink into adhominem attacks & name calling; it seems the evidence is not to your likeing & you are weded to your ideology instead of honest inspection & dialogue.

What can we say? Dealing with ignorant people is frustrating; even more so when they don't realize they are ignorant.
 
Upvote 0

revolutio

Apatheist Extraordinaire
Aug 3, 2003
5,910
144
R'lyeh
Visit site
✟6,762.00
Faith
Atheist
obediah001 said:
You Evil-outionists all ways & quickly sink into adhominem attacks & name calling; it seems the evidence is not to your likeing & you are weded to your ideology instead of honest inspection & dialogue.
You really shouldn't attack other people's opinions as 'evil' it is bad karma and doesn't provide a very amiable environment.
 
Upvote 0

Plan 9

Absolutely Elsewhere
Jul 7, 2002
9,028
686
72
Deck Six, Cargo Bay Two; apply to Annabel Lee to l
Visit site
✟27,857.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
obediah001 said:
Thjen what do you call all the attacks in deferance to the facts on this board then?


Obe, honey, I can't find a single post in which you've provided any facts yet. Have I missed a post? Seriously.
 
Upvote 0

LadyShea

Humanist
Aug 29, 2002
1,216
5
55
Nevada
Visit site
✟1,749.00
Faith
Atheist
Hey Tom and Obe, how about responding to the actual points raised in this thread? There are many posts here you have yet to address. Creationists post their silliness, then ignore the refutations, then call us meanies, then start all over again and I am sick of it.

I posted this on page 2 or 3 Tom, either refute it or admit you're incorrect. You made the assertions, you claimed you can provide actual evidence, I call...whatcha got?

Tom said: And also why scientists find human bodies that are over 10 feet tall...they found one 20 years ago in Italy that was 13 feet tall

I responded: No, they haven't. This is false. You can search National Geographic or whatever else, there is no evidence of any such thing. When you find it is not documented will you retract your statement?

Tom went on: Also, The ark was not small by any means..God warned Noah 120 years before the Flood was to come. That means he had 120 years to build a boat big enought o fit two of each into it. Now, int hat length of time, with a few people working on that boat, you could make it pretty big. So, it was not small...

To which I replied: According to the measurements given in the Bible, the Ark would have been about the size of a standard Carnival cruise ship. Not nearly big enough to hold 2 of all the millions of species on Earth. How would koalas and other animals only found in Australia, or animals only found in North America have gotten to the Middle East anyway? Swim? If they could make that swim, then why did they need to be on the Ark? The whole flood story is nonsense.

Look, Hovind is a liar and has been discredited again and again...check the forum for the dozens of discussions about him. He is not a Doctor (he bought his degree from an unaccredited degree mill), has no science education, and refuses written debates. He is a fraud making money off True Believers. Christians should be up in arms against him for duping the young and naive.

I'd like to add that studies show a strong correlation between lack of education and YEC beliefs...why do you think that is"?
 
Upvote 0

platzapS

Expanding Mind
Nov 12, 2002
3,574
300
35
Sunshine State
Visit site
✟5,263.00
Faith
Humanist
As a Christian, I must say that the evolutionists seem to be quick to ridicule the creationists. If you really want Tom (and others) to consider evolution, you shouldn't insult their intelligence. Many creationists are highly knowledgeable people.

As an evolutionist, I want to say that evolution and God are perfectly compatible. I think that modern scientific thinking and the Bible can be in perfect harmony.

Suppose evolution were true--would God give a detailed description of complex biology, natural and sexual selection, and genetics to a group of nomadic herders, or would he give them a story that told them that God created everything and will take care of us?

May God help us in our search for truth.
 
Upvote 0