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WHat side are you on???

lucaspa

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TomInCT said:
At what stage in biological evolution is matter created from nothing?

Nowhere in BIOLOGICAL evolution. Just as nowhere in Cell Theory is matter created from nothing. Or nowhere in Stem Cell Theory or in Mendel's Theory of Genetics. Do you get the picture yet, Tom? Theories have BOUNDARIES. There is no theory of everything. Biological evolution accepts the existence of matter and the existence of life. Given those, biological evolution explains the diversity of life on the planet.

Martin- I am at work...What is the exact definition of punctuated equilibrium??? I don't have any references at work here, sorry man....

How about a discussion of PE from one of the inventors, SJ Gould? Of course, being so "widely read" in evolution, I'm sure (cough, cough) that you have already read this.

SJ Gould, The episodic nature of evolutionary change. In The Panda's Thumb, 1980, pp.179-185.

"Darwin portrayed evolution as a stately and orderly process, working at a speed so slow that no person could hope to observe it in a lifetime. Ancestors and descendants, Darwin argued, must be connected by "infinitely numerous transitional links" forming "the finest graduated steps." Only an immense span of time had permitted such a sluggish process to achieve so much.
"Huxley felt that Darwin was digging a ditch for his own theory. Natural selection required no postulate about rates; it could operate just as well if evolution proceeded at a rapid pace. The road ahead was rocky enough; why harness the theory of natural selection to an assumption both unnecessary and probably false? The fossil record offered no support for gradual change: whole fauna had been wiped out during disarmingly short intervals. New species almost always appeared suddenly in the fossil record with no intermediate links to ancestors in older rocks *of the same region*. [emphasis mine] Evolution, Huxley believed, could proceed so rapidly that the slow and fitful process of sedimentation rarely caught it in the act. ...
In short, Darwin argued that the geological record was exceedingly imperfect - a book with few remaining pages, few lines on each page, and few words on each line. We do not see slow evolutionary change in the fossil record because we study only one step in thousands. Change seems to abrupt because the intermediate steps are missing. ...
"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology [Note: Gould did not say absence, but rarity; examples do exist of transitionals]. ... Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory on a denial of this literal record: 'The geological record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large extent explain why we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole theory.'
"Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study [Note: almost never, not never. Again, cases of fine transitions of one species to another are known.].
"For several years, Niles Eldredge ... and I have been advocating a resolution of this uncomfortable paradox. We believe Huxley was right in his warning. The modern theory of evolution does not require gradual change. In fact, the operation of Darwinian processes should yield *exactly* what we see in the fossil record. [emphasis mine] It is gradualism that we must reject, not Darwinism.
"The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism:
1. Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change duing their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is usually limited and directionless.
2. Sudden appearance. In any *local* area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed.' [Note, emphasis mine, but the key here is the local area where you did for fossils.]
"Evolution proceeds in two major modes. In the first, phyletic transformation, an entire population changes from one state to another. If all evolutionary change occurred in this mode, life would not persist for long. Phyletic evolution yields no increase in diversity, only a transformation of one thing into another. Since extinction (by extirpation, not by evolution into something else) is so common, a biota with no mechanism for increasing diversity would soon be wiped out. The second mode, speciation, replenishes the earth. New species branch off from a persisting parental stock.
"Darwin, to be sure, acknowledged and discussed the process of speciation. But he cast his discussion of evolutionary change almost totally in the mold of phyletic transformation. ...
"Eldredge and I believe that speciation is responsible for almost all evolutionary change. Moreover, the way in which it occurs virtually guarantees that sudden appearance and stasis shall dominate the fossil record.
"All major theories of speciation maintain that splitting takes place rapidly in very small populations. The theory of geographic, or allopatric, speciation is preferred by most evolutionists for most situations (allopatric means 'in another place'). A new species can arise when a small segment of the ancestral population is isolated at the periphery of the ancestral range. Large, stable central populations exert a strong homogenizing influence. New and favorable mutations are diluted by the sheer bulk of the population through which they must spread. They may build slowly in frequency, but changing environments usually cancel their selective value long before they reach fixation. Thus, phyletic transformation in large populations should be very rare - as the fossil record proclaims.
"But small, peripherally isolated groups are cut off from their parental stock. They live as tiny populations in geographic corners of the ancestral range. Selective pressures are usually intense because peripheries mark the edge of ecological tolerance for ancestral forms. Favorable variations spread quickly. Small, peripheral isolates are a laboratory of evolutionary change.
"What should the fossil record include if most evolution occurs by speciation in peripheral isolates? Species should be static through their range because our fossils are the remains of large central populations. In any local area inhabited by ancestors, a descendent species should appear suddenly by migration from the peripheral region in which it evolved. In the peripheral region itself, we might find direct evidence of speciation, but such good fortune would be rare indeed because the event occurs so rapidly in such a small population. Thus, the fossil record is a faithful rendering of what evolutionary theory predicts, not a pitiful vestige of a once bountiful tale.
"Eldredge and I refer to this scheme as the model of punctuated equilibria. Lineages change little during most of their history, but events of rapid speciation occasionally punctuate this tranquillity. Evolution is the differential survival and deployment of these punctuations. (In describing the speciation of peripheral isolates as very rapid, I speak as a geologist. The process may take hundreds, even thousands of years; you might see nothing if you stared at speciating bees on a tree for your entire lifetime. But a thousand years is a tiny fraction of one percent of the average duration for most fossil invertebrate species - 5 to 10 million years. Geologists can rarely resolve so short an interval at all; we tend to treat it as a moment.)"
 
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Loudmouth

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Thanks, original source material is always nice to have. The last two lines are especially importaint, IMO. However, this quote also doesn't stress selection against poor adaptations, which I think are also important in overall species fitness.

Thanks again.
 
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Well, it is pretty obvious that many of you are not believers in God and are only in these forums to try to disprove him...For those of you who do believe in God and evolution at the same time, I still don't get it... God did not have to let things evolve to figure out what he wanted them to be, he created them perfect the 1st time.


Arikay... Actually, 666 is on the bar code... the 1st longer line, the middle longer line, and the 3rd longer line...check it out.

Karl- u wrote...Nope. Evolution is just a change. Of course, natural selection will tend to prefer the ones that benefit the species. But this is not for some grand "advancement of life and matter" - this is for the survival of that particular lineage. The Smilodon's teeth were a great advance for Smilodontes, but a serious setback for gazelles.

-So, evolution is just a change, but is no grand advancement? Well, can you please explain how, with just a change, we could have evolved to where we are today? Wouldn't we need a positive change to evolve?



Jet Black- I appreciate your concern and I will check into the Hovind theories... However, I have seen him live and have talked to him on an individual basis... The stuff he says does seem solid... I do tend to disagree with the urgency he places on the new world order though...I do believe that things are begining to take shape into something like that, but not for a longer time and more towards the 2nd Coming of Christ. I will look into some more info on Hovind though...


As far as Hovind not have a degree or scientific background, he was a high school science teacher for years, how could he not have a degree??


2 Peter 3:3-5 ... "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing anmd following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the begining of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water."
 
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Arikay

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"Well, it is pretty obvious that many of you are not believers in God and are only in these forums to try to disprove him"

Nope.

Say this with me,
Evolution is not atheism.
Evolution is not atheism.
Evolution is not atheism.

Evolution can Not disprove God.
Evolution can Not disprove God.
Evolution can Not disprove God.

"Arikay... Actually, 666 is on the bar code... the 1st longer line, the middle longer line, and the 3rd longer line...check it out."


I did. It was one of the first things I checked out. Have you? It only takes 5 minutes to do it yourself.

http://www.adams1.com/pub/russadam/faq.html
"Is there a hidden 666 in bar code?

NO! I get this question asked at least once a week. What people really mean is "does UPC found on grocery products have a hidden 666 (mentioned in Revelation 13:16 in the New Testament)?"

People have thought that the three guard bars used to specify the start, middle and end of a UPC bar code looked like the bar code sequence for a "6" found in the UPC symbol table.
You can find a copy of the symbol table on the UPC/EAN page. These guard bars are not "6" and carry no information. Even if you don't believe that guard bars carry no information and insist on applying the code table, you have to determine whether the digit is on the left side or the right side of the symbol. That's because the sequence of bars and spaces are different depending on whether the digit is on the left of the symbol or the right of the symbol. The LEFT guard bar would have to be smallest space, smallest bar, smallest space, WIDEST BAR in order to be a "6". The guard bar on the left is actually space of undetermined wide (left side digit must always start with a space element), smallest bar, smallest space, smallest bar. That sequence of bars and spaces is undefined and is not a "6" even using the table. The middle guard bar is not on the left or the right ('cause it is used to divide the symbol), so it is undefined by the table."


If you search around, you can find yourself a bar code creator and see for yourself. The guard bars are Not the same as a 6 or any other number.
Its FALSE.

Again, if you have learned Evolution from Hovind, then you have learned very little to nothing that is true. May I suggest actually reading about what it really is?


TomInCT said:
 
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Got to watch them folks who only want to attack the character of Hovind rather than the Truth he speaks. I personally do not trust the PHD's crowd as they are simply indoctrinated into the Evolutionary religion in college. My wife just graduated her 4 year degree & she had to bite her tounge alot & tow the evolutioary line to get hru the classes, though she knows better (the Truth), there is surely nuthin to prove in the universities by speaking up! one will only be damaged hindered in school by doing so.
 
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Arikay

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So you believe in someone who bought their degree from a degree mill?
Show us how it is a religion?
Now show us how gravity or france (sorry for stealing that. ) is not a religion?

Your "truth" sure contains a lot of lies.

 
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Nathan Poe

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TomInCT said:
As far as Hovind not have a degree or scientific background, he was a high school science teacher for years, how could he not have a degree??

So he says.

Question: Has Hovind ever mentioned where he was a teacher for those 15 years? As a teacher myself, I can tell you that his "credentials" wouldn't qualify him for any legitimate teaching position that I know of...
 
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T

T.R.D.

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The "Truth(TM)"? This Truth(TM) was falsified nearly 200 years ago. Why do you insist on being willfully ignorant of the facts?

Evolution is not atheism
Evolution is not atheism
Evolution is not atheism

You can believe in God and accept science.
 
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Michali

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About the giants mentioned earlier in this thread:

A website: www.returnofthenephilim.com.

It has a lot of accounts of rare human bones. Molars that belonged to 20 ft. tall men. Fossilized footprints that belongs to a 30 ft. woman. Bones that lay in tombs that are unusually large. Skulls discovered to have horns growing from the section above the eyebrows. Red-haired, 8 ft. mummies discovered in Native American tombs before Columbus landed. (I do know of Vikings and Leif Erikson)

Actually the website has very little sources. There are things that you would find in the tabloids. Their focus is mainly on how aliens may be the great deception of Satan at the end of the world. Nephilim are mentioned breifly in Genisis as giants who were the offspring from demons marrying women. They were destroyed by the flood because they were making imperfect human blood-lines. It is theorized, by the website makers, that demons will come in the future as aliens. Decieving mankind into believing that they hold the answers to the universe. It actually goes well with scripture in Revelation. I just read it yesterday when someone posted a link. It sounded like bogus at first, but its neat to read.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Nathan Poe said:
Question: Has Hovind ever mentioned where he was a teacher for those 15 years? As a teacher myself, I can tell you that his "credentials" wouldn't qualify him for any legitimate teaching position that I know of...

Nope. References to his so-called 15 years of teaching experience are vague, at best. The only info I could glean was that he supposedly taught at Christian schools, perhaps in Illinois.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out his claim about being a high-school teacher is exaggerated or possibly bogus.
 
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Siliconaut

Not to be confused with the other Norman Hartnell
@obediah:
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Just a follow-up on the question of where Hovind taught. After doing extensive 'net searching (both the web and newsgroups) I came up empty. The best reference I could get was that he taught at private Baptist schools. However, some references indiciate he taught in public schools.

But rather than speculate, I decided to send the man himself an email to get the truth. I'm wondering what kind of response I get (if I even get a response).
 
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JohnR7

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TomInCT said:
As far as Hovind not have a degree or scientific background, he was a high school science teacher for years, how could he not have a degree??

He has a regular collge degree, but his Phd comes from a correspondance school and they question if he had to work hard enough to get it.

You can check out their web site and see what book they require for you to read for each course:

http://www.patriotuniversity.com/
 
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Pete Harcoff

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I received a response to my email. It listed the following schools that Hovind has taught at:

Bethel Baptist Academy in Pekin, IL
Faith Baptist Academy in Bourbonnarais, IL
Longview Baptist in Longview, TX
Calvary Baptist Church School in Fairfield, CA
East Hill Christian School in Pensacola, FL
 
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Yeah, I am still here Akiray, sorry to disappoint you

I just really care all that much to hear people argue about proving someone's credentials...The last how many posts have been dedicated to attepting to discredit Mr. Hovind? That's pathetic. The only reason you guys are here are to try to discredit him? Well, that just goes to show that you people place far too much emphasis on the titles like Dr., PHD.etc...Even if Hovind was a high school drop-out, he still knows a whole lot of information of the subjects and the facts can't be discredited. Let me ask one question... Do any of you believe evolution is a religion or have you been brainwashed into thinking it's just a science? Personally, a theory that is going to try to explain to me how I was created is sure more then just science to me!!!....And if Hovind is such a liar, how is he still preaching God's word? Especially facing such an up-hill battle, including Christians that oppose and critize him? Because maybe he has some fatcs!

And that barcode website info is so ridiculous...That is what you call a COVERUP, Let's repeat after me (like some-else would say) COVERUP, COVERUP, COVERUP! Of coarse it is the #6, just look at the barcode, find the #6 and tell me that the longer lines are not the #6? Or, just get a product from 1972 and look at the barcode and it says 6 at each of the longer lines...BOGUS WEBSITE!



Obediah- Congrats to your wife, she has surely found the truth and she knows the truth of God and his awesome creation!
 
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