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The Liturgist

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@timothyu - in your pursuit of what you call the “Kingdom” you should strive to follow in the footsteps of the Lord of the otherworldly Kingdom, who despite ruling a Kingdom Not Of This Earth, did not scorn the people of this world or fail to come to their aid and intervene in their human, secular problems. And he did this consistently, by healing the sick, casting out demons, using a whip to expel merchants abusing the Holy Temple, and interfering to prevent the stoning of a woman guilty under Jewish law.

Our Lord intentionally involved Himself in even the messiest human foibles and petty politics, and made Himself known and feared by the secular authorities and the Jewish religious leaders in this manner.
 
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timothyu

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Our Lord intentionally involved Himself in even the messiest human foibles and petty politics, and made Himself known and feared by the secular authorities and the Jewish religious leaders in this manner.

Yes, that is why I compared who we are to be, with the Red Cross, working with all. The world does not fear those who do God's will.
It fears those who, even in the name of religion, poses a threat to their power (especially when the religion proclaims itself as a worldly power). Not Jesus' intention.

Interesting that Pilate did not see Jesus as a threat but the leaders of the Sanhedrin did, much in the way certain denominations fear and criticize other denominations. Actually Jesus spent much of His time chastising the religious leaders and not the secular state. As He said the religious leaders should have known better but pursued their will over God's, while the secular world did not know better and could be excused. The Gentile church has carried on the tradition of the Sanhedrin's leaders within the church and outside of it, in causing division within the world rather than between the world and the Kingdom..
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Yes, that is why I compared who we are to be, with the Red Cross, working with all. The world does not fear those who do God's will.
It fears those who, even in the name of religion, poses a threat to their power (especially when the religion proclaims itself as a worldly power). Not Jesus' intention.

Interesting that Pilate did not see Jesus as a threat but the leaders of the Sanhedrin did, much in the way certain denominations fear and criticize other denominations. Actually Jesus spent much of His time chastising the religious leaders and not the secular state. As He said the religious leaders should have known better but pursued their will over God's, while the secular world did not know better and could be excused. The Gentile church has carried on the tradition of the Sanhedrin's leaders within the church and outside of it, in causing division within the world rather than between the world and the Kingdom..


Christianity posed a threat to Rome according to the Romans because of it's very creed. Not because it posed a political challenge to the Empire, at least not at the start. So your Idea of completely surrendering political power is almost worthless as a historical concept since the Ideas of Christianity challenged so many aspects of traditional Roman life. Not just Roman life but the life of the world in general.

Your Anti-clericalism is noted, but it's a horrible reading of the Gospel and Christian history in general. Christianity has always understood there needed to be a separation between the secular and the clerical. This is what separates it from systems like Islam. Nor can we simply transfer the criticism of the religious authorities of Jesus' day to those of our own in the current day. What would your proposed solution of giving up all power, all pressure the Church could muster do exactly? Aside from advancing secular atheism/agnosticism even further than it has advanced already?

I suppose you won't be satisfied till everyone except you is a believer.
 
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prodromos

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'"It is written," he said to them, "'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it 'a den of robbers".

His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for thy house will consume me.”

Jesus didn't go uninvited into other people's houses with a whip.
I've got no idea what you mean by that. We aren't going into other people's houses, we are keeping order and truth in our own house.
 
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hedrick

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I further propose that the more “open minded” churches among the mainline Protestant denominations have in recent years opened themselves up to schism. There have been schisms in the Presbyterian, Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutheran and Congregational denominations, some of which happened before the 1950s (see the break between the CCCC and the other Congregationalist churches a decade before the Reformed-Congregational merger which gave us the modern UCC, and also another more traditional denomination, which now represents the moderate side of the Congregational movement. And of course there is the tragedy of the impending schism in the UMC, which should not happen - the church voted for the Traditional Plan at the last general conference and should focus on implementing that even if it means firing some disobedient clergy and disfellowshipping some parish-level leaders for contumacy (although I suspect that if Methodist conference bishops have the same authority as diocesan and archdiocesan bishops elsewhere, that could be difficult). And the motto of the more liberal UMC parishes was “Open hearts, open minds, open doors,” which sounds lovely, like my former denomination’s famous “Comma” ad campaign, but which is really a clever platitude intended to silence internal dissent to counter-scriptural change and innovation not intended, like that of the Magisterial Reformers, to revert actual and imagined RC innovations, but rather, to engage in such innovation, like the Roman church, in response to external secular pressure.
The schism comes from people who are trying to enforce various traditional doctrines. In the Presbyterian case, which I know the best, there's not just one traditional denomination, but several. Protestantism as a whole shows how narrow doctrinal standards, without a way to coerce the losers, results in fragmentation.

I agree that the Catholic Church often allowed a degree of disagreement, although there were limits that look pretty narrow by my standards. A smarter or less corrupt pope could probably have avoided a split in the 16th Cent without doing violence to the tradition. The modern Catholic church seems to have learned that lesson. The Catholic Church in the US is in effect a mainline Protestant denomination with a thin veneer of traditional sexual and gender positions.
 
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The Liturgist

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The schism comes from people who are trying to enforce various traditional doctrines. In the Presbyterian case, which I know the best, there's not just one traditional denomination, but several. Protestantism as a whole shows how narrow doctrinal standards, without a way to coerce the losers, results in fragmentation.

The thing is, of the various Presbyterian denominations in the US, such as the PCA, OPC, the RPCNA, the PCUSA and the newly formed Evangelical Covenant Order, well, only the PCUSA and the ECO have been derived from a recent schism. Likewise, if we look at the Lutheran churches, it is not a case of parishes leaving the Missouri Synod or one of the other traditional Lutheran churches, to join the NALC, but rather people leaving the ELCA. And in the world of Anglicanism, the Reformed Episcopal Church, which dates from a 19th century schism over objections to the at the time increasingly High Church and Anglo-Catholic Protestant Episcopal Church, and which is a conservative denomination, has not recently suffered a schism but has instead reunited with dioceses of its former congregation as a part of ACNA, despite many of those dioceses being very high church. So, recently, the main cause of schism has been the failure of the mainline churches to make a commitment to Biblical morality.

And frankly, I can’t call the departing congregations, classes, presbyteries and dioceses “schismatic” because if a parish or diocese or presbytery is a member of a larger denomination that makes a radical change in its doctrine that takes it outside of the realm of traditional Christian doctrine concerning human sexuality and other issues, including in the ELCA the extreme situation cause by the existence of parishes like Ebenezer Lutheran, which I have brought up before, Galatians 1:8 seems to compel action.

I agree that the Catholic Church often allowed a degree of disagreement, although there were limits that look pretty narrow by my standards. A smarter or less corrupt pope could probably have avoided a split in the 16th Cent without doing violence to the tradition.

The real proximate cause of the schismatic process, I would argue, was not the corruption of Leo X and his failure to deal with Martin Luther, but the precedent set for what Luther attempted by the Moravians, who, in a desire to reclaim that which they had lost when forcibly converted to the Roman Rite following the conquest of the Czech Lands and Slovakia by Austria (something which later became against RC procedure, hence instead the large Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, etc). The Moravians and the smaller and older and somewhat less orthodox Waldensians suffered terrible persecution, but they survived, and this allowed Luther to act and survive. And he saw himself as returning to a lost tradition.

Also one cannot really say that much divergence of opinion was tolerated in the Roman Catholic Church during the dark years of the Avignon Papacy, the corrupt Borgias, the militancy of Julius II, and the corrupt misrule of Leo X, because this was the era of the Inquisition. Indeed even in our shared Reformed Calvinist heritage I expect you and me both regard John Calvin’s baiting of Servetus to Geneva so that he could be executed for heresy, and the subsequent decision of the City Council, contra Calvin, to burn Servetus at the stake, with a certain horror, but this was learned behavior, from the Inquisition, and can be interpreted as an attempt by the Reformed Church in Geneva and the theocratic civic authorities to prove their doctrinal orthodoxy in the strongest possible way, based on what were, alas, at the time, the established practices of Western Christianity, which did fortunately become disestablished perhaps as a benefit of some aspects of Enlightenment thinking.

The modern Catholic church seems to have learned that lesson. The Catholic Church in the US is in effect a mainline Protestant denomination with a thin veneer of traditional sexual and gender positions.

And in terms of average attendance at individual services as a percentage of the total capacity of the parish, the traditional, diocesan Latin Mass services which have become relatively widespread after Summorum Pontificum outperforms those of Novus Ordo services.
 
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hedrick

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The thing is, of the various Presbyterian denominations in the US, such as the PCA, OPC, the RPCNA, the PCUSA and the newly formed Evangelical Covenant Order, well, only the PCUSA and the ECO have been derived from a recent schism.
But all the schisms are the same underlying issue. Every generation or two people somehow become surprised that they're in a mainline denomination, which is not committed to Biblical inerrancy and other traditional views. The particular issue is different, e.g. ordination of women instead of ordination of gays, but that's just a symptom.

The ECO is pretty interesting. It retains the PCUSA book of confessions. It seems to continue the whole mainline tradition, except for a rejection of LGBT people. I think it's unlikely that that particular separation will last. The Presbyterian tradition has seen plenty of schisms where there's a reunion a bit later. It's much less likely that the PCA will ever reunite with the PCUSA.
 
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The Liturgist

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But all the schisms are the same underlying issue. Every generation or two people somehow become surprised that they're in a mainline denomination, which is not committed to Biblical inerrancy and other traditional views. The particular issue is different, e.g. ordination of women instead of ordination of gays, but that's just a symptom.

The ECO is pretty interesting. It retains the PCUSA book of confessions. It seems to continue the whole mainline tradition, except for a rejection of LGBT people. I think it's unlikely that that particular separation will last. The Presbyterian tradition has seen plenty of schisms where there's a reunion a bit later. It's much less likely that the PCA will ever reunite with the PCUSA.

The point I am making is that it is the PCUSA and its predecessors which have consistently been alienating congregations for decades. Conversely, the relations between the PCA, OPC, and RPCNA are quite warm, and there has even been reunification, such as the RPCES-PCA merger.
 
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The Liturgist

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But "God" is whomever one thinks He is in his own mind most of the time, etc, and Muslims mainly follow Muhammad's idea of who God was/is basically, etc, and I just don't think it's anything close to who the True God really is, etc, for very, very many reasons surrounding the person of Muhammad, etc...

God Bless!

The problem of course is that the word Allah is also used by persecuted Middle Eastern Christians in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and elsewhere to refer to our God. And these lands were Christian before the rise of Islam, which occurred in whar is now Saudi Arabia, and the Muslims did under Muhammed subjugate the Christians and killed the Jews living in Madinah (Medina).
 
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The Liturgist

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I am not certain that this is a logical as you think it is. You seem to be suggesting that the Church should some how be exempt from the constraints of secular government, yet some how be enabled to advance it's own cause and influence. That just is not how a pluralist democracy works. Do you see this working for all sorts of religious expressions, such as Islam, Judaism, and the Klingons on the starboard bow.

I think we should all be concerned with the recent breakout of religious fundamentalism in the Klingon Empire.
 
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The Liturgist

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We, sadly, did not truly resolve the Arian controversy by Councils and it remains live today, as does, even more sadly, Donatism.

That said, Arianism was extinct between roughly the ninth and nineteenth century, although in the sixteenth century we did see the rise of Soccinianism/Unitarianism, which was regurgitated from the heresy attributed to the evil and decadent third century bishop Paul of Samosata.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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It is always very "dangerous", "risky", etc, I mean just look what it did to Christianity in the form of the Catholic church after they did that over the ages, etc, and how very far removed they became from the true Christianity that existed before that, etc...

But, that much being said, I do believe it was all a part of God's overall plan for that time, and going into the future after that, etc, but I think it needs a very drastic severe makeover now, etc...

Like giving up their idols for one thing, and them all going back to much more true Christian ways way before that union was ever done and/or formed, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

If the Catholic Church was as bad as you claim, how did they preserve the New Testament for us?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Do you think God was with the Church during this mild apostasy?
If the Catholic Church was as bad as you claim, how did they preserve the New Testament for us?
 
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RDKirk

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His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for thy house will consume me.”

I've got no idea what you mean by that. We aren't going into other people's houses, we are keeping order and truth in our own house.

Keeping order and truth in our own house is not what that this thread is about. This thread is about the Church keeping "order and truth" using the force of arms by kings in earthly nations...using the king's sword to force pagans to act like Christians should act.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If the Catholic Church was as bad as you claim, how did they preserve the New Testament for us?
I don't think the Catholic Church is completely terrible though. What makes you think that?
 
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hedrick

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The problem isn't the Nicene Creed, but the politics behind it. Nicea didn't settle the Arian question. Arianism become slowly less popular, after more than 50 years of political battles and theological work.

At least part of the solution was the work of the Cappadocian Fathers and others. The Nicene Creed really doesn't define the Trinity in its final form, because at the time of Nicea there was still lots of theological work that remained to be done. It was done during the middle and latter part of the century. While there were plenty of condemnations in both directions during that century, Arianism seems to have mostly faded out as new Christological issues arose and more sophisticated theology was developed to deal with them.

The impression I get from the histories I've looked at is involvement of Roman emperors didn't really help the resolution, and dueling councils didn't settle it. Rather, over time better theology was the real solution.
 
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prodromos

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Keeping order and truth in our own house is not what that this thread is about. This thread is about the Church keeping "order and truth" using the force of arms by kings in earthly nations...using the king's sword to force pagans to act like Christians should act.
None of which was done by Constantine. I think you are in the wrong thread
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I don't think the Catholic Church is completely terrible though. What makes you think that?

I agree that Eastern Churches would also maintain the NT too. As I remember the split did not happen until around 1054? correct. Thus would the Eastern Churches also be considered Catholic up to that time? We would also have Jewish Scholars, educated maintaining the Hebrew Scriptures.
 
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