What should be the appropriate, Biblical P/C/W view of homosexuality?

[JimB]

Okay, since the “A new perspective on gay folks” has been moved out of this forum to another one in keeping with the rules, I would like to rephrase the question to ask ‘What should be the appropriate, Biblical Pentecostal/Charismatic/Word of Faith view of homosexuality?’

Don’t get me wrong, I believe the act of homosexuality is a sin; it is fornication. But with all the motion in conservative Christian (P/C/W) media about the “detestable” and “abominable” sin of homosexuality, I wondered what the Bible said about it and was surprised to discover that there are only six references to it in the Bible (4 explicit and 2 implicit), three in the OT and three in the NT. I have posted them below.

Conversely, scriptures condemning greed/covetousness, for example, has 90 references; pride has 51 references; anger (not including malice and rage), 36 references.

IOW, if we P/C/W's “speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where it is silent” aren’t we paying more attention to homosexuality than the Bible does? Why do you think this is?

Here are the six Bible references condemning homosexuality (maybe you can show me others):

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Genesis 19:4-5

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Leviticus 18:22

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13

As they were enjoying themselves, suddenly certain men of the city, perverted men, surrounded the house and beat on the door. They spoke to the master of the house, the old man, saying, “Bring out the man who came to your house, that we may know him carnally!” Judges 19:22

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:26-27

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. 1 Timothy 1:9-10
​

What do you think?

\o/

 

[JesusPhreek]

IOW, if we P/C/W's “speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where it is silent” aren’t we paying more attention to homosexuality than the Bible does? Why do you think this is?

For myself, as I can speak for no-one else, I think we should be speaking out against all these things. But most likely the reason for more attention on the homosexual agenda is because of the issue of marriage, adoption, tolerance training in schools and things like that. More and more, day by day, that agenda is being perpetrated on the american public and they in no wise think anything of it. They have gone so far as to say that it is genetic and theya re a minority, the same as blacks are in the US. Colin Powell responded by saying that black is a skin color, whereas homosexuality is defined by your actions. There was no way he could ever be NOT black, no matter how he chose to act.

I think that the greed of many of the "preachers" out there should be addressed just as vehemently as the homosexuals; people see a preacher driving a mercedes meanwhile his congregation has to bike it to work, and that is the view that they get of Christianity. No wonder people of today prefer to be atheists! If we start getting back to good real Christian Biblical values in AND out of the church, then we will eb able to make more headway against those secular things that are threatening to overtake us.

 

[SharonL]

If we continue to be quiet we will be allowing it to be totally acceptable - just as us being quiet has allowed prayer taken out of schools - Christmas just about wiped out, etc - we need to contact our representatives and not remain quiet. It is being forced on our children and getting stronger all the time. When this generation is grown - they will think nothing of it.

Homosexual activity is so serious that God speaks of the end result in very strong language. God only tugs at our heartstrings just so long and then turns us over to a reprobate mind and that is what it is saying. A very sad thing to see.

We need to handle this with much prayer - Many people may not agree with me, but I think it is a very strong Spirit - I have seen it broken off of men before and they end up having a normal life, marrying and enjoying life.

A lot of it happens when they are very young due to some molestation. We need to love the people and handle it with compassion - not condemnation - The homosexuals I have known are usually great people, but deep down they are not happy. I have talked to many homosexuals and they want to be freed of this desire.

It is such a strong Spirit that when it has been broken - many are drawn back into it.
My prayers go out to each and every one of them. The Bible may only speak of it 6 times, but each time those are very strong passages and the destruction of the cities and everyone in it leaves nothing more to say.

 

[Doug45]

Okay, since the “A new perspective on gay folks” has been moved out of this forum to another one in keeping with the rules, I would like to rephrase the question to ask ‘What should be the appropriate, Biblical Pentecostal/Charismatic/Word of Faith view of homosexuality?’

Don’t get me wrong, I believe the act of homosexuality is a sin; it is fornication. But with all the motion in conservative Christian (P/C/W) media about the “detestable” and “abominable” sin of homosexuality, I wondered what the Bible said about it and was surprised to discover that there are only six references to it in the Bible (4 explicit and 2 implicit), three in the OT and three in the NT. I have posted them below.

Conversely, scriptures condemning greed/covetousness, for example, has 90 references; pride has 51 references; anger (not including malice and rage), 36 references.

IOW, if we P/C/W's “speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where it is silent” aren’t we paying more attention to homosexuality than the Bible does? Why do you think this is?

Here are the six Bible references condemning homosexuality (maybe you can show me others):

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Genesis 19:4-5

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Leviticus 18:22

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13

As they were enjoying themselves, suddenly certain men of the city, perverted men, surrounded the house and beat on the door. They spoke to the master of the house, the old man, saying, “Bring out the man who came to your house, that we may know him carnally!” Judges 19:22

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:26-27

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. 1 Timothy 1:9-10
​

What do you think?

\o/

It seems easy to me to judge people based upon my successes. It is easier to judge an individual who practices homosexual lifestyle because I am hetrosexual. But interestingly, I have trouble judging someone for obesity when I carry too much weight for my stature. We often judge people by our successes and neglect to look at our failures. The following passage in James relates guilt before the law in a surprising way. It seems that if I am a thief or obese, I am guilty of the entire law and if someone who practices a homosexual lifestyle is also guilty of the entire law, then aren't we in the same boat? Is not sin at its rudimentary place simply a violation of God's character?

James 2:8-11
If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well. [9] But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. [10] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. [11] For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

So, it is my opinion that we should treat homosexuals with the same respect as all other sinners while we speak out against sin in all forms. Love the sinner, not the sin.

Frankly, I must confess that I am still working out this facit of my Christian walk.

Thanks, Jim, for bringing up the subject to the forefront of our minds.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[Hadron]

Homosexuality is sin. There is no way around it, although a lot of people come up with some really creative ideas about it. Do I think it is a different sin than most? Yeah... hello? It's called sexual immorality.

I thought a long time and wrote and rewrote a response to this. I came up with three scenarios for our reaction to the sin.

• If it is realized as sin and true repentance is sought, we need to make provision for that to come about, however the Spirit leads in doing so.
• If it is not realized as sin or the heart is hardened, but the person is an unbeliever, I think Jesus' approach probably worked best -- and the Holy Spirit can work for the witness in this way. I believe it.
• If the person proclaims Christ as their savior and that homosexuality is from God and is good, then they are double-minded (i.e. serving two masters) and have no place in the Church. It is harsh, but that is the reality.

I'm sure that last one will get people all in a huff, but you know what? Let's look at 1 Corinthians 9 again, but this time we'll include another verse in there.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NIV) Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
​

I'll let yall think about that last verse.

 

[HumbleMan]

I see homosexuality as a sin. No graver or lighter than any other sin. The difference, in my mind, is that the practitioners of it generally won't recognize it as sin or repent, because then they'd have to admit that they way they live is wrong.

I think many Christians have more of a problem with it than other sin because it goes against nature, we don't like people to tell us we're wrong (the whole "it's not a sin" thing), and it's a divisive political issue.

 

[enoch son]

For it is written;
"For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
by ABOLISHING in HIS FLESH the enmity, which is the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ORANINANES, so that IN HIMSELF HE might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
and might reconcile them both in one body to GOD through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity."
What business is it of ours how God works in other lifes? Who our we to say that sin in someone elses flesh is wrong? Isn't Got the one that sanctify's? Does not love overcome all things? I shall speak out the grace of God in all matters and let the flesh past as dead.

 

[JimB]

Hmmm. Interesting views. No one, I think, would disagree that fornication, which encompasses homosexual (as well as hetero) acts, is sinful. That is not the point. Some of the posts above seem to me to be motivated more by fear than faith (like, the homos are taking over, the sky is falling, the sky is falling) and more rooted in a cultural bias (those dam* queers) than in scripture.

My question is, why do youo think the Bible say so little about homosexuality?

It occurs to me that the only “sin” (btw, a singular noun, not plural) that God through the Holy Spirit deals with is the sin of failing to believe in Jesus Christ – “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me” (John 16.8-9).

Conviction for the sin of unbelief is the job of the Spirit; conviction of sinful acts (which all stem from the parent sin of belief) God leaves to our regenerated mind and purified conscience. It is the law written in our hearts.

So, it seems to me that when we attack homosexuals for their sinful actions or lifestyle we are hacking at the branches and not the root. The root of their condition is their failure to believe on Jesus Christ, not their sinful activity. Sinners are supposed to sin, that’s what they do, that’s why they need Jesus. IOW, let’s focus our attention on their unbelief; not their lifestyle.

IMO.

\o/

 

[Doug45]

For it is written;
"For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
by ABOLISHING in HIS FLESH the enmity, which is the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ORANINANES, so that IN HIMSELF HE might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
and might reconcile them both in one body to GOD through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity."
What business is it of ours how God works in other lifes? Who our we to say that sin in someone elses flesh is wrong? Isn't Got the one that sanctify's? Does not love overcome all things? I shall speak out the grace of God in all matters and let the flesh past as dead.

So, enoch son, are you suggesting that this passage from Eph 2: 11-22 which clearly discribes the incorporation of Jew and Gentile together as one body has something to do with incorporating homosexuality into the church?

Just need some clarification.

Doug

 

[enoch son]

So, enoch son, are you suggesting that this passage from Eph 2: 11-22 which clearly discribes the incorporation of Jew and Gentile together as one body has something to do with incorporating homosexuality into the church?

Just need some clarification.

Doug

The law as pasted my friend we are in GRACE. Jew and gentile a like. As for incorporating homosexuality into the church. Someone of a higher standing did it all ready. His name was JESUS it hung on the same cross as we did.

 

[Doug45]

The law as pasted my friend we are in GRACE. Jew and gentile a like. As for incorporating homosexuality into the church. Someone of a higher standing did it all ready. His name was JESUS it hung on the same cross as we did.

Perhaps we have a different understanding of grace. I believe grace to be the enabling power of God extended to us as a free gift to walk worthy of His calling. Grace is never permissive. Grace never makes room for my sin or anyone else's sin. In stead it enables us to live out the law of the Spirit. Remember, not one jot of tittle shall be removed.

You are right, it is not a matter of performance, but rather His performance in us to walk in completeness and holiness. Surely you are not suggesting that Jesus incorporated sin into the kingdom in order to accomadate the sinner?

Doug

 

[JimB]

Perhaps we have a different understanding of grace.
*****
Remember, not one jot of tittle shall be removed.
*****
Doug

Actually, I belive Jesus said one jot or one tittle of the law shall not pass away till all be fulfilled. (see Matthew 5:18).

So, did Jesus fulfill the law or did He not? I say He did and therefore the law has “passed away”.

But what does this have to with the OP?

\o/

 

[psalms 91]

The law as pasted my friend we are in GRACE. Jew and gentile a like. As for incorporating homosexuality into the church. Someone of a higher standing did it all ready. His name was JESUS it hung on the same cross as we did.

yes we are in grace and God wills all men to be saved as well but we know all men wont be and we know that unrepantant sin is not forgiven, we must all repent daily. Is one sin worse than another, no, but we in the church are asked to judge within the chuirch a homosexual who is celibate has a place within the church as far as leadership goes but an unrepentant practicing homosexual has no place in the church except in the pews until he comes to the realization of Christs atoning blood and saving power and renounces the sin in his life. Why is this issue more prevailant maybe it is because to many try to force this on the church and want to change the bible.

 

[enoch son]

Actually, I belive Jesus said one jot or one tittle of the law shall not pass away till all be fulfilled. (see Matthew 5:18).

So, did Jesus fulfill the law or did He not? I say He did and therefore the law has “passed away”.

But what does this have to with the OP?

\o/

The law as all kinds of condemnation about sin and the living in it. So one can under the law past all kind of judgement upon them. But is that to say that any other act of sin is greater or smaller. My bible say's it's all idoraty Col.3;5.

 

[JimB]

yes we are in grace and God wills all men to be saved as well but we know all men wont be and we know that unrepantant sin is not forgiven, we must all repent daily. Is one sin worse than another, no, but we in the church are asked to judge within the chuirch a homosexual who is celibate has a place within the church as far as leadership goes but an unrepentant practicing homosexual has no place in the church except in the pews until he comes to the realization of Christs atoning blood and saving power and renounces the sin in his life. Why is this issue more prevailant maybe it is because to many try to force this on the church and want to change the bible.

Yes! I tend to agree with this. I only wish we would practice it.

\o/

 

[enoch son]

yes we are in grace and God wills all men to be saved as well but we know all men wont be and we know that unrepantant sin is not forgiven, we must all repent daily. Is one sin worse than another, no, but we in the church are asked to judge within the chuirch a homosexual who is celibate has a place within the church as far as leadership goes but an unrepentant practicing homosexual has no place in the church except in the pews until he comes to the realization of Christs atoning blood and saving power and renounces the sin in his life. Why is this issue more prevailant maybe it is because to many try to force this on the church and want to change the bible.

I don't read anywhere in the book that I'm to past judgement on another. Is not the power of God in the Holy Spirit the one thats changes ones life? Do not words of loves over power words of hate to someone? I can look at all the flesh listed in Col. 3 and judge it to be alive or dead. I believe the bible say's it is dead.

 

[enoch son]

Perhaps we have a different understanding of grace. I believe grace to be the enabling power of God extended to us as a free gift to walk worthy of His calling. Grace is never permissive. Grace never makes room for my sin or anyone else's sin. In stead it enables us to live out the law of the Spirit. Remember, not one jot of tittle shall be removed.

You are right, it is not a matter of performance, but rather His performance in us to walk in completeness and holiness. Surely you are not suggesting that Jesus incorporated sin into the kingdom in order to accomadate the sinner?

Doug

We are not in the same universe in the understanding of grace. In reading your understanding I became ill. sorry Jim. I will step out of this stone throwing thead.

 

[psalms 91]

I don't read anywhere in the book that I'm to past judgement on another. Is not the power of God in the Holy Spirit the one thats changes ones life? Do not words of loves over power words of hate to someone? I can look at all the flesh listed in Col. 3 and judge it to be alive or dead. I believe the bible say's it is dead.

love is exactly how we should treat all especially sinners i do not say beat them with it but do not make them ministers while they are still in sin and unrepentant. Also does it not say that we are to judge within the church I believe it is laid out very clearly in the New Testament. It also talks of church disapline as well done in love even to the point of putting someone out and not fellowshipping with them and there is another verse that deals with certain sins and says have no fellowship with such, so we are commanded to judge and discern

 

[JimB]

We are not in the same universe in the understanding of grace. In reading your understanding I became ill. sorry Jim. I will step out of this stone throwing thead.

No, ES. I would like you to stay and let’s talk about the proper P/C/W (and /V ) perspective on homosexuality.

\o/

 

[enoch son]

No, ES. I would like you to stay and let’s talk about the proper P/C/W (and /V ) perspective on homosexuality.

\o/

Jim it's simple if we love and move in the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT no words are needed to be said that this is wrong or that is wrong. The church has spent 1000 yrs. preaching damnation instead of salvation. It's the power of God that changes lives not mans words or laws back up by death.