What should a man do when its never enough?

[Autumnleaf]

I know a psychologist who talks about men he sees who quit drinking, quit having affairs etc... He says its common that the wives don't accept their husbands back after they change. He says no matter what they do, "Its never enough." Then the men get discouraged when they realize that no matter what they do it seems they can't maker her happy so why try. Then the reformed man moves on leaving the damaged woman behind. What do you make of this?

 

[.chrys.]

I doubt it has anything to do with them being able to make their wives happy, but everything to do with not being able to regain their wives' trust. Every wound leaves a scar.

You ask what a man should do when it is never enough? What should a woman do who's been scarred by her husband?

 

[faroukfarouk]

There also should be a mutual focus on grace rather than "rights".

 

[cleophilia3]

I'm wondering about the psychologist's credentials and training. He believes just the wives are unforgiving of errant husbands? Especially in the cases of problem drinking and habitual cheating - domestic abuse and trauma is common. I wouldn't blame a spouse for having extreme difficulty overcoming and forgiving.

The above posters make two very good points:
1. Can trust be regained in a marriage, once seriously broken?
2. Grace over personal rights and happiness.

I would also add that when ever a spouse makes a major life change (sometimes for the better, sometimes not), an incredible amount of strain can be placed on the relationship. Sometimes when a dysfunction ends in one spouse, the other has to also "relearn" how to handle and react to the new behaviors. It doesn't take much to seriously damage trust, but it can take a lifetime to earn it back.

 

[Autumnleaf]

You ask what a man should do when it is never enough? What should a woman do who's been scarred by her husband?

Forgive and move on, same as if the woman did it.

 

[DZoolander]

I think people need to be honest with themselves.

In order to explain that - I think a decent grasp of what the concept of forgiveness ought to look like. In my mind, at least, forgiveness is not an instant act, but rather a progression over time. Like, say someone cheated on their spouse. If they stayed together - I'd *assume* forgiveness should be the goal... So what ought that to look like?

Clearly things aren't going to be kosher the day that it's discovered/revealed. But, I'd argue that after a given amount of time (let's just pick a good amount of time for illustrative fact)... If efforts are truly made and contrition is truly there - I'd say that ten years later it should no longer be a subject up for discussion. So, if the cheating happened in 2014, and everything was done right, I'd hope that by 2024 penance is no longer being requested/required.

...and everything in between should be a forward progression toward that end.

Kind of like, it sucks really bad (100% on day one). A month later - for example - maybe it might be 95%. A month after that...90%... Clearly things aren't expected to "just go away" - but I'd argue that if they stay together - it should be incrementally going away.

...which kind of brings about a sticky subject. Ought the person who made the offence have any right to make any kind of demands? To that end - I'd say yes. The demand that he or she ought to be able to make (although clearly for reasons of tact they ought to wait to make it) - is that if you choose to stay with them - at some point they should be done paying the price of their action(s).

If, however, forgiveness is never to be had and they are expected to spend the rest of their lives paying the price for the misdeed - then the relationship ought to be dissolved (in my mind). Nobody ought to spend their entire life (IMHO) paying the price for a misdeed. If the injury was so bad that it cannot be recovered from - I think both parties have a duty to themselves (and in a cursory way to each other) to just let each other go.

 

[.chrys.]

Forgive and move on, same as if the woman did it.

How does that work?

I think EZoolander spoke well to that process. It's something that takes time and can't be demanded of another person. "Forgive and move on..." may take as long as 10 years (or even longer in some cases).

So what is a man to do when it's never enough? I say, keep trying, and wait.

 

[akmom]

I agree with the incremental forgiveness/healing concept. But this:

Nobody ought to spend their entire life (IMHO) paying the price for a misdeed. If the injury was so bad that it cannot be recovered from - I think both parties have a duty to themselves (and in a cursory way to each other) to just let each other go.

Although I agree, you can't spend your whole lives that way, I don't know that it's always so simple as giving up and moving on. What if the couple has kids? Do they have to live in a broken home because their parents couldn't handle the situation? I don't know. My husband and I have talked about this a lot, and just looking at the people around us whom we've known over the years, it seems that children can handle family dysfunction better than family upheaval. I think it has to be pretty darn bad to justify destroying the family unit. In the example of cheating, if the offending spouse is truly repentant and not reoffending, I think divorce is overkill.

Even in a marriage sans kids, I would think there is a fair amount of shared responsibilities that each brings into the marriage, and that has to be worth something. We knew a couple that finally had it with each other and split up, and after about a year apart, they both realized how much they missed the other and got back together. They started the divorce process and everything, but ended up renewing vows instead. I think if people truly can't get over something in a reasonable amount of time, maybe they need to get some perspective.

If you built a life with this person, and have a chance to grow old with them, and both parties want to make that happen, I think it's wrong to throw that away.

 

[HannahT]

I know a psychologist who talks about men he sees who quit drinking, quit having affairs etc... He says its common that the wives don't accept their husbands back after they change. He says no matter what they do, "Its never enough." Then the men get discouraged when they realize that no matter what they do it seems they can't maker her happy so why try. Then the reformed man moves on leaving the damaged woman behind. What do you make of this?

One thing I have noticed with humans in general is there lack of patience. They want everything on their timeline, and full acknowledgement of their deeds - or in this case 'change'.

Its sad that this psychologist feels that you can only feel accomplishment in your life if your 'other' takes them back. It takes a much bigger person to acknowledge you must do this for yourself, and sometimes the damage you have done prior just ISN'T something you can undo. Does that hurt? Of course, but life has consequences. The spouse couldn't control the fact that he drank or had affairs, and they can't control the other spouse's mended trust - or whatever else they are looking for once they have turned that corner.

I'm sure the spouse that dealt with the drinking and affairs also felt they could do nothing right, and was never good enough. At times you also hit a point of no return. It is what it is.

In this 'me me me' culture? People have a hard time putting themselves in the position of someone else. They seem to forget what they are feeling now? Their partner felt for a long time. Some people have it within them to build on change, and you have learn in life the fact that some can't.

Honestly, Autumnleaf I'm surprised the psychologist doesn't get that either. Its part of human nature, and has nothing to do with 'wives' in general. I mean children of alcoholics have trouble mending their relationship after the parent stops drinking too. The 'reformed' parent has to live with the damage they caused, and is in no way the child's fault.

I mean if they have some magical insight on how to forgive and move on? lol maybe they can show us the magical insight on how to avoid becoming the drinker and adulterer too! Since we know that isn't possible maybe this psychologist needs to come down off their high horse, and rethink their position on how human nature works!

 

[mkgal1]

It seems this psychologist may have been trained by the Bob Newhart school of counseling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhQGzeiYS_Q

 

[mkgal1]

What seems to be missing is any understanding (empathy) of the damage that's been caused. If a person comes to me with the attitude of, "but that was in the past...you need to get over it" (with a lack of empathy and a sense of entitlement of restoration and forgiveness).....it's just not going to build that bridge between us (in fact---that attitude usually makes the gap even wider).

Part of the popular 12-step program is making amends---I think that's a critical step (for the healing on both sides) in re-building and restoring relationships.

In his book, Staying Sober, Terence Gorksi shares a simple exercise that creates a workable “road map” for the process of making amends. On a sheet of paper, draw lines to make three columns. In the left column, list those who were hurt by my drinking/drug addiction. In the center one, list how they were hurt in very specific terms. And, in the right, list what must be done to make amends with them - See more at: http://alcoholicsvictorious.org/library/Restoration-Through-Making-Amends-2#sthash.DzuDCy5H.dpuf

How do amends differ from apologies?
An amend has to do with restoring justice as much as possible. The idea is to restore in a direct way that which we have broken or damaged--or to make restoration in a symbolic way if we can't do it directly.
Say, for example, that I borrowed 20 dollars from you and never paid you back. If I go up to you and say, "Gee, I'm sorry I borrowed your 20 dollars and spent it on drugs," that would be an apology. Making amends is giving your money back to you.~http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/has70305.page

 

[iLove]

I know a psychologist who talks about men he sees who quit drinking, quit having affairs etc... He says its common that the wives don't accept their husbands back after they change. He says no matter what they do, "Its never enough." Then the men get discouraged when they realize that no matter what they do it seems they can't maker her happy so why try. Then the reformed man moves on leaving the damaged woman behind. What do you make of this?

The scripture tells us that we have three enemies. The flesh, the world, and Satan. All three were speaking through the psychologist that has no truth. Whenever there is a conflict with the word of god vs. human wisdom and you agree with human wisdom...you have then just stop the gospel reaching your life. You have made the cross of Christ ineffective where the power of God is.

 

[Autumnleaf]

The scripture tells us that we have three enemies. The flesh, the world, and Satan. All three were speaking through the psychologist that has no truth. Whenever there is a conflict with the word of god vs. human wisdom and you agree with human wisdom...you have then just stop the gospel reaching your life. You have made the cross of Christ ineffective where the power of God is.

I see. Do you say the same thing when your mechanic says you've got a blown head gasket?

 

[Autumnleaf]

Forgiveness used to be a staple Christian concept to live by. I'm surprised its become quaint among some people.

 

[LinkH]

I sounds like in that case, it could be a more spiritual issue as the wife struggles to forgive. If she forgives, then she may be capable of being pleased with her husband.

When I read the title, I wasn't expecting the affair part. Having an affair such a dangerous thing to a marriage. It can really destroy it. If it's a case of nothing ever being good enough and there is no affair, then the man can just point out the problem of his wife never being pleased and try to get her to see that this is an issue and do some introspection. And of course, he can pray about that. My wife has gone through times when she's been a bit like that toward me. I didn't have an affair or drug abuse, or whatever. We were going through a difficult time, and it's harder for my wife to be pleased with what I do when I've been unemployed. But I've seen God work in that area in my wife in answer to my prayer, and if she has gotten like that in the past, she prays and overcomes it. When it's happened, it's usually during times of stress for her.

Overcoming an affair is a unique problem. I know that there are Christian books dedicated just to that issue. If this psychologist can't help people with the problem, maybe they should try another counselor or some other approach besides counseling.

 

[mkgal1]

Forgiveness used to be a staple Christian concept to live by. I'm surprised its become quaint among some people.

Forgiveness is more than ignoring something and moving forward as if the past never happened, though. Restoring a relationship is even more than forgiveness.

You've heard the quote about a broken vase.....right?

 

[Autumnleaf]

Forgiveness is more than ignoring something and moving forward as if the past never happened, though. Restoring a relationship is even more than forgiveness.

You've heard the quote about a broken vase.....right?

Was that one of Jesus' parables? Is Jesus and God sitting at a picnic table in Heaven going over how hurt they are at what you did last week? Are they going over everything you've done wrong in the morning and how they will tell you about it the next time they see you? I've looked, but nursing resentments doesn't seem to be in my copy of the Bible.

Is the broken vase part of being born again as a new creation?

 

[.chrys.]

Autumnleaf, what does forgiveness mean to you? How does the process of forgiving work, in your opinion? Is it something you say, then promise to never bring up again, or even think about again?

 

[Autumnleaf]

Autumnleaf, what does forgiveness mean to you? How does the process of forgiving work, in your opinion? Is it something you say, then promise to never bring up again, or even think about again?

Its a decision. Its not a process. Calling it a process is excuse making to avoid making the decision.

I forgive people all the time for all kinds of things. Most of the time they don't know I do it. I do it for me because I can't afford to hold onto resentments.

 

[.chrys.]

Well, some people don't make decisions lightly. For me, it's a process that takes a lot of thought and consideration. Decision making IS a process.