What scriptures support praying to the saints?

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

iLogos said:
So in conclusion the word "pray" means some thing different to some believers regardless what the actual Greek words or meanings are. we are free to interchange this word to mean whatever we want whenever we want. Scripture is irrelevant as this does not need to be "biblical" except when it supports our views, when it opposes our views, we simply disregard it or ignore it.

As for talking to dead people and angels, so what, we like to do it.

I think I understand now!

Not at all - I gave the Greek usage, though it seems you misunderstood.

In English, we use the word "pray" in its broad sense (covering the Greek terms), but in Greek we say what we mean in the Greek.

It is the English translation that "muddles" or interchanges the terminology; those who use English and use a very narrow definition of pray are at odds with the English usage of the translators. For those Christians who use Greek, this is not an issue.

I still do not agree with your theology, and wonder where in Scripture it states that those who are in/with Christ and absent from their body are spiritually dead ... Paul states quite the opposite, unless you believe that the physical is the source of life. I believe that God is the source of all life, that He is life, and that those with Him are alive in Him though absent from the body.

But maybe that was learned from a translation problem, too, and the English Scriptures say that to be with God is to be dead

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24

Who is dead ???

iLogos · Feb 5, 2012

I'm done. I provided the actual Greek word and it's proper usage and meaning, which you ignored of course. We can do a in depth word study on the word prayer and see how it's used each time, my guess is it won't matter because in the end regardless of Greek translations, word studies, biblical scriptures, none of that will change the opinion of those who like to pray to angels and dead saints. To which no one will change your minds. So what's the point? Your not interested in facts. Unsubscribing to this dead thread

Peace

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

iLogos said:
I'm done. I provided the actual Greek word and it's proper usage and meaning, which you ignored of course. We can do a in depth word study on the word prayer and see how it's used each time, my guess is it won't matter because in the end regardless of Greek translations, word studies, biblical scriptures, none of that will change the opinion of those who like to pray to angels and dead saints. To which no one will change your minds. So what's the point? Your not interested in facts. Unsubscribing to this dead thread

Peace

I didn't ignore what you posted at all - if you read my posts, I actually pointed out that you were using a narrow definition (only one of the Greek words so translated), and that this did not reflect the terminology used for asking a saint or Saint for their prayers to God for us.

We are not bound by the terminology that you have inaccurately claimed that we use, but don't, or our understanding of the terms (which reflects Scripture usage).

In your usage, pray always means worship. In ours, and in Greek, it does not. So maybe if you want to be clear, you should not use the muddied term "pray", but only use "worship".

As before, no-one I have ever talked to or any text I have read states we should worship anyone or anything but God !!!
So we ask the saints/Saints for their prayers for us, but never never never worship them ! And I agree with you - to worship anyone but God would be more than a serious offense !

You seem to be not interested in the facts I provided, nor the teaching of the Scriptures on life and death I quoted and referred to.

Which is too bad, as even though we may eventually still disagree, we might have come to understand more about each other's understandings.

Incariol · Feb 5, 2012

iLogos said:
I'm done. I provided the actual Greek word and it's proper usage and meaning, which you ignored of course. We can do a in depth word study on the word prayer and see how it's used each time, my guess is it won't matter because in the end regardless of Greek translations, word studies, biblical scriptures, none of that will change the opinion of those who like to pray to angels and dead saints. To which no one will change your minds. So what's the point? Your not interested in facts. Unsubscribing to this dead thread

Peace

I think it's sad that you don't believe Jesus when he says Christians are immortal.

John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

"dead saints" is an oxymoron. Your childish insults and special pleading also are rather contemptible, appending a smiley face and "Peace" don't change the fact that you are running away after behaving extremely rudely towards Thekla.

Standing Up · Feb 5, 2012

Everyone pretty much understands the usage of dead vs alive in Christ. Jesus distinguished this by saying two of you "on earth" agree ...

Also Paul asks those saints on earth to pray for him. No where is it recorded that scripture/apostles "prayed" to the saints not on earth. Remember we had the two first perfect martyrs (James son of Zebedee and Stephen) by which apostles could have used as examples for this later tradition of invoking the deceased. They didn't, but rather, they ask for those saints on earth to pray.

Hope that helps.

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

Standing Up said:
Everyone pretty much understands the usage of dead vs alive in Christ. Jesus distinguished this by saying two of you "on earth" agree ...

Hope that helps.

Those with Christ and absent from the body are already in agreement with Him.

Standing Up · Feb 5, 2012

Thekla said:
Those with Christ and absent from the body are already in agreement with Him.

If so, then there's no sense in doubting it by praying to them.

Christ said on earth. Paul asked those on earth.

Incariol · Feb 5, 2012

Standing Up said:
If so, then there's no sense in doubting it by praying to them.

No one doubts it, but we do it anyways. If you don't want to because that has some possibility of being above and beyond the absolute minimum of things Christians "need" to do, that's perfectly fine.

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

Standing Up said:
If so, then there's no sense in doubting it by praying to them.

Christ said on earth. Paul asked those on earth.

Prayer does matter - see James (Iakovos).

God wants our salvation, and all those who pray according to His will are in essence asking for this in us.

But prayer is also an expression of being of the same body - His body.

The Holy Spirit among us. So as Paul says a sort of "striving together", praying together, praying for each other.

jackmt · Feb 5, 2012

DrBubbaLove said:
nec·ro·man·cy noun \ˈne-krə-ˌman(t)-sē\

Definition of NECROMANCY

1
: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

How is asking someone to pray to God on our behalf is equivalent to asking that person to MAGICALLY reveal the future or influence future events?

Am not sure where a person would get the idea that praying to God involves magic, but if these are the types of prayers one practices and are trying to apply such prayers to Catholics I can assure you it is neither what Catholics nor is it right for anyone to be making that kind of prayer to God.

So I would suggest anyone doing that stop, whether they are Catholic or not.

Praying to the dead and for the dead are forbidden in Scripture. The ''saints'' are dead people. Jesus did not come to start a new religion. Nor did He come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

The first entry in my dictionary does not use the word 'magic.' You conjure up the dead when you call upon them to intercede for you, thus attempting to influence the future. Put any spin on it you like, like exchanging the word 'through ' for 'to,' but this is still what you are doing when you pray to ''saints.''

To pray is simply to ask. Our English word comes from the German word fragen - to ask. In old English prithy, or I pray thee, or I ask you, is the same expression found in the OT when one man inquires of another.

Standing Up · Feb 5, 2012

As mentioned:

Everyone pretty much understands the usage of dead vs alive in Christ. Jesus distinguished this by saying two of you "on earth" agree ...

Also Paul asks those saints on earth to pray for him. No where is it recorded that scripture/apostles "prayed" to the saints not on earth. Remember we had the two first perfect martyrs (James son of Zebedee and Stephen) by which apostles could have used as examples for this later tradition of invoking the deceased. They didn't, but rather, they ask for those saints on earth to pray.

Hope that helps.

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

Standing Up said:
As mentioned:

Everyone pretty much understands the usage of dead vs alive in Christ. Jesus distinguished this by saying two of you "on earth" agree ...

Also Paul asks those saints on earth to pray for him. No where is it recorded that scripture/apostles "prayed" to the saints not on earth. Remember we had the two first perfect martyrs (James son of Zebedee and Stephen) by which apostles could have used as examples for this later tradition of invoking the deceased. They didn't, but rather, they ask for those saints on earth to pray.

Hope that helps.

I understand what you are saying, but I do think it rather skips the understanding that "alive in Christ = alive in Christ", and that the promise of the "Holy Spirit among you (plural)" cannot (imo) also mean that the Holy Spirit, binding the body and present with those in Him, would exclude some who are in/with Christ.

So on this matter, we can agree to disagree.

As our faith is what we live (as opposed to an intellectual position), I live my faith in the promise and reality of Christ by praying for others and asking others to pray for me.

DrBubbaLove · Feb 5, 2012

So between 50 and 100 AD the Apostles allowed this practice in regular worship to become so widespread that the appeal to the martyrs in prayer, as documented by the end of century in liturgical forms, universally appear. And that happened without a peep from any Apostles?

jackmt · Feb 5, 2012

DrBubbaLove said:
So between 50 and 100 AD the Apostles allowed this practice in regular worship to become so widespread that the appeal to the martyrs in prayer, as documented by the end of century in liturgical forms, universally appear. And that happened without a peep from any Apostles?

Source, please. I have never heard anyone claim this, and I was raised RCC and studied to be a priest.

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

jackmt said:
Praying to the dead and for the dead are forbidden in Scripture. The ''saints'' are dead people. Jesus did not come to start a new religion. Nor did He come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

Your contention stands in direct opposition to the witness of Scripture re: death and those in Christ (previously cited in thread).

The first entry in my dictionary does not use the word 'magic.' You conjure up the dead when you call upon them to intercede for you, thus attempting to influence the future. Put any spin on it you like, like exchanging the word 'through ' for 'to,' but this is still what you are doing when you pray to ''saints.''

This is a gross misrepresentation.

To pray is simply to ask. Our English word comes from the German word fragen - to ask. In old English prithy, or I pray thee, or I ask you, is the same expression found in the OT when one man inquires of another.

I agree, and the majority of the Greek words interpreted as pray seem to fall to some degree in line with this, but not others.

Standing Up · Feb 5, 2012

jackmt said:
Source, please. I have never heard anyone claim this, and I was raised RCC and studied to be a priest.

Perhaps he's referring to OT tradition, not sure. But right, we don't see it in the NT/apostolic age.

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

Standing Up said:
Perhaps he's referring to OT tradition, not sure. But right, we don't see it in the NT/apostolic age.

"The hardest part of history is being there." Jason Scott

* just realized there is more than one JScott (duh); the above quote is from J S Sadofsky, of the Archive Team

DrBubbaLove · Feb 5, 2012

jackmt said:
Source, please. I have never heard anyone claim this, and I was raised RCC and studied to be a priest.

Am no seminarian, not a cradle Catholic and have simply read what is available to everyone online. There are too many sources to list here or go into and the detail is lengthy, but a google of St James liturgy should get one started. And I would spend at least a little time in the Catholic encyclopedia at newadvent.org as well as some informative sites from our Eastern brothers.

CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Liturgy of St. James
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Liturgy of Jerusalem
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Antiochene Liturgy
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Antiochene Liturgy

If you by this statement are unfamiliar with the call for saints to pray for us in the current liturgy then, no disrespect, but your opinion in that regard as a former seminarian might be called suspect by some. That same part of today's liturgy is a call for "martyrs" to pray for us in the St James version and apparently also in many if not all ancient versions of liturgies.

Tzaousios · Feb 5, 2012

iLogos said:
I'm done. I provided the actual Greek word and it's proper usage and meaning, which you ignored of course. We can do a in depth word study on the word prayer and see how it's used each time, my guess is it won't matter because in the end regardless of Greek translations, word studies, biblical scriptures, none of that will change the opinion of those who like to pray to angels and dead saints. To which no one will change your minds. So what's the point? Your not interested in facts. Unsubscribing to this dead thread

Peace

There is the old "you do not have ears to hear/eyes to see" escape hatch and rhetorical trope. That in and of itself reveals who was operating specifically on presuppositions and will not change their mind.

What scriptures support praying to the saints?

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