whitetiger1
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- Sep 3, 2011
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Sorry to hear that than rather follow Christ in His ChurchTheres other gospels, and the gospel of "us" instead of the gospel of JesUS becomes apparent
Yes I am familiar being a former catholic how praying to the same is justified.
However, I gotta head out for a bit, its been a predicatable conversation.
Be true, I'd rather be considered as a reprobate, its all good
I am not interested in a discussion proclaiming myself as true, or anyone elses proclamations of themselves as true. Jesus Christ is true and He knows them that are His, even the apostles said "we preach not ourselves" but Christ the Lord. They also said they had no dominion over their faith but were helpers of their joy.
Not interested in the "lording over" over others.
Jesus says on earth (specifically)
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Amen sister!
Thank God for Jesus words or we'd have a phonebook of saints in heaven to call on without any idea they (in heaven) actually agreed with us (when it come to what ask). There is one on the internet.
When it comes to the things pertaining to God, they asked Jesus...
Luke 11:1 ...Lord, teach us to pray
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven...
Who should we adress? Well there you go... Our Father
Not Ben, Jerry and Lucy (in heaven) but our Father in heaven
Certainly not exclusive of agreeing with another when one does ask (ofcourse not) but he does specify to them from "what location"
Mat 18 :19 Again, I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree (((on earth))) as touching any thing that they shall ask it shall be (((done for them))) of my Father which is in heaven.
So theres nothing wrong with asking the brethren (((on earth)))
Jesus says to and Paul asks accordingly...
Thes 5:25 Brethren, ((pray for us))
He is obviously "praying" (which is asking) the brethren (((on earth))) ......to pray (The Father) in heaven in agreement with them/for them (for some real results) <--- please someone jump on this
John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1John 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Jesus also says this...
John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask ((in my name)): and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Amen and Amen!
It is written in Scripture that we can come boldly to the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16) and that we have a Mediator between us and God, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). There is absolutely NO scriptural references which command us or exhort us to pray to anyone who is heaven other than to God.
You werent going to jump on the "results part" to help me out were ya?
Let Gods words be my feeble excuse, because I have had other prots correct me and can be corrected by them, catholics also through whom I also have been corrected, and likewise have I been corrected by those of the EO and others, thats the body of Christ everywhere doing their jobI can have ten thousand instructors in Christ, and I bless the Lord for the body of Christ "wherever" they are
Im not of the notion my puddle is the only true one to wade around in, I'll leave that to others who believes God only rains on them
Who me? ....
He is obviously "praying" (which is asking) the brethren (((on earth))) ......to pray (The Father) in heaven in agreement with them/for them (for some real results) <--- please someone jump on this
Apostle Creed - speaks to "communion of saints" - which as a concept is inclusive of intercessory prayerHave any links to that?
Apostle Creed - speaks to "communion of saints" - which as a concept is inclusive of intercessory prayer
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed
Didache - importance of Apostolic teachings and keeping them
CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache
Liturgy of Saint James - appeals to saints for prayer/praise, communion of saints and martyrs
CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Liturgy of St. James
Hermas - The Shepard - an angel gives intercession - support of the concept of hosts in Heaven interceding on our behalf. In addition this work is quoted by many Early Fathers (Irenaeus, , even treated by a few as scripture - but regardless of the content held in error - there would have to be an acceptance of intercession on the part of the Fathers to consider any of this work note worthy.
Chap 4
CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III
St Clement - prayer alone joined by choir of saints in Heaven
CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria)
Apocryphal Acts of John - probably mid second century
Google it and look at page 144
Interesting in that it represents a Gnostic view against giving reverence to Saints/icons ("dead picture of the dead"). Which means the Church is practicing veneration of Saints/icons which includes intercession if the Gnostics writer is going to bother poking fun at it here.
Yes, which is why I mentioned content held in error. We have people speaking out in defense of the offices of the Church. Interestingly we have NO ONE, repeat NO ONE speaking out against INTERCESSION of those in Heaven. Yet we have early Fathers quoting this work - shows there was awareness of the work.Hermas - The Shepard - an angel gives intercession - support of the concept of hosts in Heaven interceding on our behalf. In addition this work is quoted by many Early Fathers (Irenaeus, , even treated by a few as scripture - but regardless of the content held in error - there would have to be an acceptance of intercession on the part of the Fathers to consider any of this work note worthy.
Chap 4
CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III
Could you clarify the quote? Not seeing it.
You know Hermas is a witness against the later tradition of the unique NT office of priest, don't you?
Yes, which is why I mentioned content held in error. We have people speaking out in defense of the offices of the Church. Interestingly we have NO ONE, repeat NO ONE speaking out against INTERCESSION of those in Heaven. Yet we have early Fathers quoting this work - shows there was awareness of the work.
Follow the link - page down - read Chapter 4 it is not long - mentions intercession - not as a teaching point or explanation or defense of that process - which means the writer assumes the reader is familiar with there being something called intercession not just from praying for each other but also from asking those in Heaven - and it is shown in contrast with just asking the Lord directly.
Apostle Creed - speaks to "communion of saints" - which as a concept is inclusive of intercessory prayer
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed
Didache - importance of Apostolic teachings and keeping them
CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache
Liturgy of Saint James - appeals to saints for prayer/praise, communion of saints and martyrs
CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Liturgy of St. James
Hermas - The Shepard - an angel gives intercession - support of the concept of hosts in Heaven interceding on our behalf. In addition this work is quoted by many Early Fathers (Irenaeus, , even treated by a few as scripture - but regardless of the content held in error - there would have to be an acceptance of intercession on the part of the Fathers to consider any of this work note worthy.
Chap 4
CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III
St Clement - prayer alone joined by choir of saints in Heaven
CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria)
Apocryphal Acts of John - probably mid second century
Google it and look at page 144
Interesting in that it represents a Gnostic view against giving reverence to Saints/icons ("dead picture of the dead"). Which means the Church is practicing veneration of Saints/icons which includes intercession if the Gnostics writer is going to bother poking fun at it here.
We're using apocryphal things to support Christian practices? We may as well speak to the witches of Endor.
Will go where ever the Church leads me as I found that much more reliable than relying on myself.Pure speculation. Besides, keep in mind that the Church excommunicated and declared heretical those who observed the 14th Nisan as Jesus' death. That would be the apostles, Mary, and others. You don't really want to go there.
Ah, that took me a lot of time reading, least you could was read it.Hermas rejected.
Clement is too long. Which chapter has the "evidence"?
We're using apocryphal things to support Christian practices? We may as well speak to the witches of Endor.
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