What Scriptures support Evolution?

[kedata]

Ok, through a discussion at this thread thread 482446

I said "I would be happy to agree if you can show me where in the Bible it talks about evolution and where it states that God created some men heterosexual and some homosexual. If the Bible does in fact say that than I stand corrected and more than willing to admit my error."

To that the response was " Sure, as soon as you can show me where in the Bible it says using a computer is acceptable.
I don't know that deflecting the question tells me where this is in the Bible. It doesn't mention toothbrushes or deodorant either but I use those. They tools like a computer. It is how you use those tools and to what end that matters.

And the response included:
The Bible wouldn't talk about evolutionary theory because the theory wasn't proposed until 150 years ago. The Ancient Hebrews believed the Earth was flat, geocentric, with a solid dome sitting above it, and heaven above the dome, and hell below the Earth's crust. The Bible supports this, and the church held onto this faulty belief for many years, even arresting Galileo for proposing heliocentrism."
Where does the Bible support this?


So, since this person was unable or unwilling to provide me with the Scriptures that support these claims, I am asking here. Where in the Bible does it support Evolution and where in the Bible does it say God created man - some homosexual and some heterosexual. If you can show me where and your exegesis proves to be sound than I will have not choice but to agree with you.

 

[marlowe007]

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Ecclesiastes 3:18-21, KJV).

^ Here we have scripture proclaiming that Man is an animal, in accordance with evolutionary theory. It may not talk about evolution directly, but it at least supports TOE. Also, the person you were debating with is drastically wrong; evolution is by no means synonymous with Darwin - the theory dates as far back as the 4th century BC, and was espoused by numerous ancient philosophers from Zhuangzi to Anaximander to Archelaus.

 

[Mick116]

Ok, through a discussion at this thread thread 482446

I said "I would be happy to agree if you can show me where in the Bible it talks about evolution and where it states that God created some men heterosexual and some homosexual. If the Bible does in fact say that than I stand corrected and more than willing to admit my error."

To that the response was " Sure, as soon as you can show me where in the Bible it says using a computer is acceptable.
I don't know that deflecting the question tells me where this is in the Bible. It doesn't mention toothbrushes or deodorant either but I use those. They tools like a computer. It is how you use those tools and to what end that matters.

And the response included:
The Bible wouldn't talk about evolutionary theory because the theory wasn't proposed until 150 years ago. The Ancient Hebrews believed the Earth was flat, geocentric, with a solid dome sitting above it, and heaven above the dome, and hell below the Earth's crust. The Bible supports this, and the church held onto this faulty belief for many years, even arresting Galileo for proposing heliocentrism."
Where does the Bible support this?


So, since this person was unable or unwilling to provide me with the Scriptures that support these claims, I am asking here. Where in the Bible does it support Evolution and where in the Bible does it say God created man - some homosexual and some heterosexual. If you can show me where and your exegesis proves to be sound than I will have not choice but to agree with you.

The bible presents an outdated cosmology:

e.g. "And God made the firmament [i.e. solid "dome"], and divided the waters which were under the firmament [i.e. oceans etc] from the waters which were above the firmament [i.e. the source of rain]: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven" (Genesis 1:7-8).

"the windows of heaven were opened" [understood as literal openings in the firmament] (Genesis 7:11).

"four corners of the earth" Isa 11:12 & Rev 7:10; interpreted literally, this phrase implies a flat earth.

There is a scene where Satan leads Jesus to a mountain peak to observe all the kingdoms of the earth; this also implies a flat earth.

There are countless verses which cite the Sun as "rising"; while we use this as a metaphor today, it was originally meant liteally.

Jesus ascends "up" to heaven, and ministers to those "under" the earth; i.e. Heaven is up, Hell is below.

The ancient Hebrews had no concepts of galaxies, atoms, bacteria... or natural history, evolution or deep time. We should not expect to found references to a biological theory proposed only 150 years ago.

There are, however, passages which are consistent with evolution: humans were created from dust, and to dust we return when we die, implying we are, physically, of the same "stuff" as the rest of creation:

"the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground" (Gen 2:7), and "for you are dust, and to dust you shall return" (Gen 3:19).


"The earth brought forth vegetation [i.e. plants were not created directly, ex nilo], plants yielding seed according to their own kinds [this is a crude reference to the biological concept of a "species"], and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good". This passage reflects a description of nature from the point of view of an ancient people, in much the same way as the "rising sun", and is perfectly consistent with evolutionary understanding.


It also seems that biblical farmers did understand something of selective breeding, which is a mechanism of evolution:

"But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep and of the oxen and of the fattened calves and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them".

"Jacob separated the lambs and set the faces of the flocks toward the striped and all the black in the flock of Laban. He put his own droves apart and did not put them with Laban’s flock. Whenever the stronger of the flock were breeding, Jacob would lay the sticks in the troughs before the eyes of the flock, that they might breed among the sticks, but for the feebler of the flock he would not lay them there. So the feebler would be Laban’s, and the stronger Jacob’s".

 

[Mr Dave]

Jesus says that the first commandment is "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your mind, and with all your strength." (Mk 12:30 NRSV) To Love God with all your mind means to fully utilise your intellect and understanding that you can gather. Arguably this would include scientific knowledge as this comes through using your mind to understand things. As evolution is understood in the field of biological science to be the best way of understanding the diversity of life, and the way by which each individual species has come to be as it is today. It seems to be a command to at least give it some plausibility.

 

[ProScribe]

(bere[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]) the book of Genesis. <><

 

[Dark_Lite]

Ok, through a discussion at this thread thread 482446

I said "I would be happy to agree if you can show me where in the Bible it talks about evolution and where it states that God created some men heterosexual and some homosexual. If the Bible does in fact say that than I stand corrected and more than willing to admit my error."

To that the response was " Sure, as soon as you can show me where in the Bible it says using a computer is acceptable.
I don't know that deflecting the question tells me where this is in the Bible. It doesn't mention toothbrushes or deodorant either but I use those. They tools like a computer. It is how you use those tools and to what end that matters.

And the response included:
The Bible wouldn't talk about evolutionary theory because the theory wasn't proposed until 150 years ago. The Ancient Hebrews believed the Earth was flat, geocentric, with a solid dome sitting above it, and heaven above the dome, and hell below the Earth's crust. The Bible supports this, and the church held onto this faulty belief for many years, even arresting Galileo for proposing heliocentrism."
Where does the Bible support this?


So, since this person was unable or unwilling to provide me with the Scriptures that support these claims, I am asking here. Where in the Bible does it support Evolution and where in the Bible does it say God created man - some homosexual and some heterosexual. If you can show me where and your exegesis proves to be sound than I will have not choice but to agree with you.

Reading evolution into the Bible generally nets you the same kind of errors that permeate creationism. Scientific concordism is a terrible idea.

 

[crawfish]

Ok, through a discussion at this thread thread 482446

I said "I would be happy to agree if you can show me where in the Bible it talks about evolution and where it states that God created some men heterosexual and some homosexual. If the Bible does in fact say that than I stand corrected and more than willing to admit my error."

To that the response was " Sure, as soon as you can show me where in the Bible it says using a computer is acceptable.
I don't know that deflecting the question tells me where this is in the Bible. It doesn't mention toothbrushes or deodorant either but I use those. They tools like a computer. It is how you use those tools and to what end that matters.

And the response included:
The Bible wouldn't talk about evolutionary theory because the theory wasn't proposed until 150 years ago. The Ancient Hebrews believed the Earth was flat, geocentric, with a solid dome sitting above it, and heaven above the dome, and hell below the Earth's crust. The Bible supports this, and the church held onto this faulty belief for many years, even arresting Galileo for proposing heliocentrism."
Where does the Bible support this?


So, since this person was unable or unwilling to provide me with the Scriptures that support these claims, I am asking here. Where in the Bible does it support Evolution and where in the Bible does it say God created man - some homosexual and some heterosexual. If you can show me where and your exegesis proves to be sound than I will have not choice but to agree with you.

I also refuse to believe in electromagnetism, quantum physics and space travel unless you can give me solid biblical proof of any of them.

 

[kedata]

It is still a "theory of evolution" Theory means not proven.

The Bible does however clearly say "God created". I have a hard time reconciling the fact that God created with amazingly intelligent design with the idea that we "evolved from worms, monkeys, sludge or whatever".

 

[gluadys]

It is still a "theory of evolution" Theory means not proven.

Technically nothing in science is proven, as new evidence can always show current theories are wrong at least in some detail. Theory, in science, does mean well-established as very probably true through much study, observation, experimentation and successful prediction of consequences.

The Bible does however clearly say "God created". I have a hard time reconciling the fact that God created with amazingly intelligent design with the idea that we "evolved from worms, monkeys, sludge or whatever".

Evolution is a fact too. The problem of reconciling these two facts is due more to a limited imagination than to actual conflict.

 

[Mallon]

The Bible does however clearly say "God created". I have a hard time reconciling the fact that God created with amazingly intelligent design with the idea that we "evolved from worms, monkeys, sludge or whatever".

The Bible also says that God created us individually in the womb (Psalm 139:13). Do you similarly have a difficult time reconciling that with the modern biological explanation that we are a natural product of a sperm combining with an egg?

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Let me preface my post by saying I am not an evolutionist.

However, the following scripture could possibly allow for evolution:

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." -- Ecclesiastes 7:29

 

[CryptoLutheran]

First point: The Bible doesn't mention evolution. Evolution is a scientific theory which, while there were ideas anterior to Darwin, was formally entered into the scientific world with Charles Darwin's publishing of Origin of the Species, though obviously much has changed since Darwin since new scientific data means we have to continually update our science. The Bible likewise doesn't mention Strong Nuclear Force or General Relativity.

That's not what the Bible is there for. The Bible is a collection of inspired texts which the Christian Church has recognized over the course of around two thousand years as being authoritative in matters of faith and Christian practice as it bears witness to the Person of Jesus Christ who is Lord and the Revealed Word of God. It doesn't need to be a science textbook or a compendium of all truth and knowledge, it just needs to point us toward the Author and Finisher of our faith (and it does that job awesomely).

Second point: In science everything is a theory. A theory is simply a working model of how things in the natural world work and which are always susceptible to being modified or completely thrown out if and/or when new data is found and new working hypotheses need to be developed. That's just how the scientific method works. Gravity, is a theory. General Relativity is a theory. Newtonian physics were accepted unquestioningly until Einstein came along; it wasn't until Copernicus came along that we finally realized that Ptolemy's geocentric model was all wrong.

Yes, Evolution is just a theory, but it's a working and reliable theory.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hairy Tic]

Ok, through a discussion at this thread thread 482446

I said "I would be happy to agree if you can show me where in the Bible it talks about evolution and where it states that God created some men heterosexual and some homosexual. If the Bible does in fact say that than I stand corrected and more than willing to admit my error."

To that the response was " Sure, as soon as you can show me where in the Bible it says using a computer is acceptable.
I don't know that deflecting the question tells me where this is in the Bible. It doesn't mention toothbrushes or deodorant either but I use those. They tools like a computer. It is how you use those tools and to what end that matters.

And the response included:
The Bible wouldn't talk about evolutionary theory because the theory wasn't proposed until 150 years ago. The Ancient Hebrews believed the Earth was flat, geocentric, with a solid dome sitting above it, and heaven above the dome, and hell below the Earth's crust. The Bible supports this, and the church held onto this faulty belief for many years, even arresting Galileo for proposing heliocentrism."
Where does the Bible support this?


So, since this person was unable or unwilling to provide me with the Scriptures that support these claims, I am asking here. Where in the Bible does it support Evolution and where in the Bible does it say God created man - some homosexual and some heterosexual. If you can show me where and your exegesis proves to be sound than I will have not choice but to agree with you.

## The Bible asserts that God is the Creator of all things - but not how. Apart from dropping a few hints about JHWH's fight with the monster Rahab; IOW, it uses (what to us is) mythological language.

The evidence for what your respondent said (& said rightly, BTW) is found throughout the Bible; for instance. in Psalms & Job. Why should that be a problem ?

As for sexual orientation - again, the Bible can't answer questions about issues it does not discuss; it's a mistake to treat it as a guide to (what is called) sexology.

 

[Tatian]

This is a hermeneutical issue. Our original poster is asking a loaded question where he asserts his method of exegeting the text for both the theistic evolutionist and himself, comes to his conclusion and then expects the theistic evolutionist to come up with a superior explanation. It's like taking a bat and hitting a home run and then giving it to the hocky player and telling him to score a goal with the bat.

For each given text, you have to decide what method is appropriate for your interpretation. Did Moses believe the world was created is six literal days? I would say most likely. Should we also? Absolutely not. You have to take Genesis for it's purpose. It's a polemic designed to re-educate Hebrews who were raised in an Egyptian culture. They believed in the god of the sun and moon. Yahwheh created and therefore is superior to the sun and moon. When the torah is taken as a complete work, maybe the most abundant theme is Israel being set apart from Egypt and the surrounding nations. Genesis, specifically chapters 1 and 2 are a refutation of the Egyptian pantheon.

 

[shernren]

Let me digress a little and tackle the other horn of your post, kedata. Where does it say in the Bible that God created some men homosexual? Presumably, you are trying to show that there is no genetic predisposition to homosexual tendencies. But where does the Bible say that?

If you are a typical creationist (and I may be wrong about this), you believe in the original sin of Adam and Eve, and you also probably believe that this original sin is transmitted from parent to children so that we are all born with a sinful nature. And you would be entirely right and biblical, in my opinion, to believe so. I am a theistic evolutionist myself, but I think my personal beliefs (the universality of man's sinfulness) work out to have about the same theological consequences of your ideas about original sin.

But think about this: that shows precisely that all men have a genetic predisposition to sin. Before the discovery of genes, "genetic" referred simply to something being inherited from your parents. And in the typical creationist doctrine, isn't original sin precisely that? A disposition towards sinfulness - indeed, an actual sinfulness, if you know your theology - that you possess simply by virtue of being your parents' child. In light of that, I don't know why you would be surprised to find "a gene for homosexuality". I don't think I would be.

Of course, by that, geneticists don't mean that there is a gene (technically, an allele of a given gene) which automatically makes certain people develop homosexuality. (If there were such an allele, all the people who carried it would be very reluctant to reproduce heterosexually, and the gene would almost certainly die out!) What it means is that there is some kind of a statistical correlation between possessing that certain allele and having homosexual tendencies. It's just like BRCA1, the "breast cancer gene": there is a statistical correlation between having BRCA1 and having breast cancer, but not all women who have BRCA1 will develop breast cancer (just a larger proportion than the populational average), and not all women who develop breast cancer have BRCA1. Just the same: if there really is a "gay gene", it will not be the case that all gay men have that gene, or that all men who have that gene are gay.

And why the obsession with homosexuality? The entire sex chromosome does little other than to predispose us to heterosexual tendencies, which can be no less wrong than homosexual tendencies in the wrong context. Should conservative Christians deny that we have an entire adultery chromosome? (Having an X chromosome instead of a Y chromosome makes you hundreds of times more likely to sleep with a man who is not your husband!) Should they be proving that there is no gene for the G-spot?

Or, why the obsession with genetics? There are many other influences a child receives which, if conventional psychology is correct, he or she will never be able to fully shake off. I grew up in a typical Asian family where children were never allowed to speak back to their parents. As a result, I mostly told friends my troubles, and whatever troubles I couldn't share with them I kept to myself. This built my resilience, but it also made me more prone to being very expressive whenever the stress was more than I could take.

In other words, my childhood left me with a predisposition towards dealing with my issues via repression-explosion. Now from a practical point of view, as an adult trying to be transformed into the likeness of Christ, how is a predisposition due to a certain upbringing any different from a predisposition due to a certain genetic pattern? Both of them are problematic to my edification, and both of them are hard to overcome because they are so deeply ingrained. But neither of them are excusable: my childhood does not entitle me to murder, nor would a gene for anger. And both of them are unescapable consequences of the presence of sin in a fallen world.

 

[mark kennedy]

So, since this person was unable or unwilling to provide me with the Scriptures that support these claims, I am asking here. Where in the Bible does it support Evolution and where in the Bible does it say God created man - some homosexual and some heterosexual. If you can show me where and your exegesis proves to be sound than I will have not choice but to agree with you.

I abhor the audacity of evolutionists who barge into the creationism subforum with these kind of questions. I am equally annoyed when creationists do this in the Theistic Evolution subforum. Even though I'm a Young Earth Creationist I'll answer your question.

The same passages that support creationism support universal common ancestry. Like the scientific evidence the subject of origins transcends the proof texts as well as the empirical evidence. What we are dealing with in the subject of origins is neither science nor Scripture, it's metaphysics (a substantive element that transcends all reality).

You come away from the subject what you bring into it. I have seen this demonstrated so many times it's not even a question anymore.

 

[Mallon]

I abhor the audacity of evolutionists who barge into the creationism subforum with these kind of questions. I am equally annoyed when creationists do this in the Theistic Evolution subforum.

Meh. I don't mind it, so long as we're being asked what we believe as opposed to told what we believe. That's annoying.

Regardless, it's pretty obvious that kedata is long gone.

 

[theFijian]

Let me preface my post by saying I am not an evolutionist.

However, the following scripture could possibly allow for evolution:

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." -- Ecclesiastes 7:29

Or the lighbulb, the vacuum cleaner, steam engine etc etc

What about these?

Gen 1:12 - The earth brought forth vegetation
gen 1:24 - And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures

I've often wondered what the significance of the earth bringing forth plants and animals on the 3rd and 6th days respectively, whereas alternatively on the 4th day the seas 'swarm' with fish and birds simply 'fly'

 

[Jazer]

where in the Bible does it say God created man - some homosexual and some heterosexual. If you can show me where and your exegesis proves to be sound than I will have not choice but to agree with you.

"although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22....24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." "God gave them over", "God abandoned them", "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves"

The Bible says God give them up or gave them over to it. They were not thankful, nor did they glorify God for what HE provided for them.

 

[theFijian]

"although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22....24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." "God gave them over", "God abandoned them", "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves"

The Bible says God give them up or gave them over to it. They were not thankful, nor did they glorify God for what HE provided for them.

To try to claim that scripture is speaking of evolution is eisegesis of the highest order and to fundamentally misunderstand what Paul is saying. And I thought that it was TEs who didn't respect scripture!