What Scriptures make a positive case for infant baptism?

[buzuxi02]

Not the verse I have in mind.
But notice in Acts 16.30-33 Paul does not make conditions. Whether foreign born slaves or underage children. He said the entire household without interogating him on age or social status of the members of his house. Paul assumes a standard oikos and the jailer being the head of that oikos.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not the verse I have in mind.
But notice in Acts 16.30-33 Paul does not make conditions. Whether foreign born slaves or underage children. He said the entire household without interogating him. Paul assumes a standard oikos and the jailer being the head of his oikos.

Yes, and all believed. How did Paul know they believed? Did he simply take it for granted? Did he think for a minute that babies were capable of believing anything?

 

[buzuxi02]

Yes, and all believed. How did Paul know they believed? Did he simply take it for granted? Did he think for a minute that babies were capable of believing anything?

He tells the jailer, believe in Christ and you will be saved. You and your oikos. (He could have omitted 'and your oikos') and just go on with the narrative. Up until recently these verses would have universally been understood to include children (and servants). No one in the Levant or Greece or Egypt especially 1800 years ago would ever suppose Paul only meant a household full of adults. The Oikos was managed by the master of the house and internally managed by the wife cooperatively, and all other fell in line. The modern day interpretation of Mark 16:31 as consisting of only adult children would never pass muster in Paul's day. Paul's whole intent is to show the oikos is included. this is no different than Abraham who was required to circimcise ALL males of his household regardless:

Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17)

Now one of the biggest fallacies of those who claim sola scripture is the non-bibilical belief that children cannot believe in Christ. Where in the bible does it teach this? On the contrary scripture teaches children are naturally inclined believers in Christ:

And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matt 18:5-6)

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise? (Matt 21)

 

[bbbbbbb]

He tells the jailer, believe in Christ and you will be saved. You and your oikos. (He could have omitted 'and your oikos') and just go on with the narrative. Up until recently these verses would have universally been understood to include children (and servants). No one in the Levant or Greece or Egypt especially 1800 years ago would ever suppose Paul only meant a household full of adults. The Oikos was managed by the master of the house and internally managed by the wife cooperatively, and all other fell in line. The modern day interpretation of Mark 16:31 as consisting of only adult children would never pass muster in Paul's day. Paul's whole intent is to show the oikos is included. this is no different than Abraham who was required to circimcise ALL males of his household regardless:

Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17)

Now one of the biggest fallacies of those who claim sola scripture is the non-bibilical belief that children cannot believe in Christ. Where in the bible does it teach this? On the contrary scripture teaches children are naturally inclined believers in Christ:

And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matt 18:5-6)

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise? (Matt 21)

Interesting assertion here - that an infant is capable of mental activity without supplying the slightest evidence of it. I am equally convinced that my pet goldfish is a Christian. Actually, he is more of a Christian than most because he continually is swimming in the water of his baptism. Now, it is up to you to make the case that my goldfish is not a Christian.

 

[Tangible]

I'll have to disagree with that. I was baptized around 13, it meant absolutely nothing to me. I had a reason for doing so, but it had nothing to do with a personal decision to follow Christ. I was rebaptized when came back to Christ.

Your intentions do not make baptism valid. The word and promises of God make baptism valid.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Your intentions do not make baptism valid. The word and promises of God make baptism valid.

The difficulty here is that one might conclude that, having been baptized, an individual is completely assured of his eternal salvation and that nothing further can, or needs, to happen. If not, then God's word and promise is, at best, conditioned upon something else.

 

[mmksparbud]

Your intentions do not make baptism valid. The word and promises of God make baptism valid.

Sorry----A baptism that is not from the heart, will end in "Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." If it means nothing tl you, it means nothing to God.

 

[Tangible]

Interesting assertion here - that an infant is capable of mental activity without supplying the slightest evidence of it. I am equally convinced that my pet goldfish is a Christian. Actually, he is more of a Christian than most because he continually is swimming in the water of his baptism. Now, it is up to you to make the case that my goldfish is not a Christian.

Reductio ad absurdum much?

Goldfish are not human beings.
Jesus did not institute baptism for fish.
God makes no promises to fish regarding baptism.

Interestingly though, one of the early fathers exhorts his "little fish" not to wander from the water of their baptism, but to just keep swimming in the safety of the River of Life.

 

[Tangible]

The difficulty here is that one might conclude that, having been baptized, an individual is completely assured of his eternal salvation and that nothing further can, or needs, to happen.

Pretty scandalous isn't it? To look to God's promises made to us in our baptism and not to our good works for our assurance of salvation. Radical Gospel can be very offensive to our old man.

If not, then God's word and promise is, at best, conditioned upon something else.

Yes, it's God's gift of faith working in us which receives and clings to God's word and promises.

 

[Tangible]

Sorry----A baptism that is not from the heart, will end in "Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." If it means nothing tl you, it means nothing to God.

Our baptism should mean everything to us. In Holy Baptism God made me his dear child and heir, washed away my sins, and united me in the death and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

As Louis IX of France once said, "I think more of the place where I was baptized than of Rhiems Cathedral where I was crowned. It is a greater thing to be a child of God than a ruler of a kingdom. This last I shall lose at death but the other will be my passport to an everlasting glory."

 

[mmksparbud]

Our baptism should mean everything to us. In Holy Baptism God made me his dear child and heir, washed away my sins, and united me in the death and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, of course it should!!----But l knew several teenagers who just went through the motions because their parents wanted them to, or other reasons. In those cases, when they have come to the decision later on, many of them chose to be rebaptized because now they meant it. I didn't care about it the first time, the 2nd was from the heart.

 

[Tangible]

Who was accomplishing the baptism? The teenagers or God?

Therefore they are presumptuous, clumsy minds that draw such inferences and conclusions as these: Where there is not the true faith, there also can be no true Baptism. Just as if I would infer: If I do not believe, then Christ is nothing; or thus: If I am not obedient, then father, mother, and government are nothing. Is that a correct conclusion, that whenever any one does not do what he ought, the thing in itself shall be nothing and of no value? My dear, just invert the argument and rather draw this inference: For this very reason Baptism is something and is right, because it has been wrongly received. For if it were not right and true in itself, it could not be misused nor sinned against. The saying is: Abusus non tollit, sed confirmat substantiam, Abuse does not destroy the essence, but confirms it. For gold is not the less gold though a harlot wear it in sin and shame.

Therefore let it be decided that Baptism always remains true, retains its full essence, even though a single person should be baptized, and he, in addition, should not believe truly. For God's ordinance and Word cannot be made variable or be altered by men. But these people, the fanatics, are so blinded that they do not see the Word and command of God, and regard Baptism and the magistrates only as they regard water in the brook or in pots, or as any other man; and because they do not see faith nor obedience, they conclude that they are to be regarded as invalid. Here lurks a concealed seditious devil, who would like to tear the crown from the head of authority and then trample it under foot, and, in addition, pervert and bring to naught all the works and ordinances of God. Therefore we must be watchful and well armed, and not allow ourselves to be directed nor turned away from the Word, in order that we may not regard Baptism as a mere empty sign, as the fanatics dream.

- Martin Luther's Large Catechism 58

 

[mmksparbud]

We make our own choices for or against God. If you are baptized without the love of God in you, it means nothing to you or God.
If you want t believe that the act of baptism is what saves you, that is your choice, action with no heart means nothing.