What remains after death?

[SoldierOfTheKing]

According to SDA teaching, what is it in a person that survives death that remains until the ressurection? I checked the 28 Fundamental Beliefs, and they don't seem to say anything about it beyond saying that the dead are not conscious until the ressurection. Does the SDA position get anymore specific than that?

 

[Aibrean]

They say they sleep.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The Bible does say that we remain in the ground until either the first resurrection of the righteous or the second resurrection of the wicked. The formula for our life is given in Gen 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So we are dust, or elements, until God breathes into us the breathe of life. We understand this basic premise of life, that unless we are breathing, we are dead. When we die, the breathe leaves us and we again become the elements we are made of.

In the same mysterious way that God makes all things, when we are called from our graves, God is able to gather all the elements that made us and reconstitute it into the bodies we had. The righteous will be raised without the mark of disease or sin and the unrighteous will be raised exactly how they were when they died. Do we kow how God does this? No, but then again I don't know how God makes a simple flower... I have faith that what He says He will do, He is able to do.

 

[Stewartnz]

According to SDA teaching, what is it in a person that survives death that remains until the ressurection? I checked the 28 Fundamental Beliefs, and they don't seem to say anything about it beyond saying that the dead are not conscious until the ressurection. Does the SDA position get anymore specific than that?

The SDA position is more specific on this point.

We teach that after death, the only place a person has any 'existence', is in the memory of God. From the "book of remembrance", God will re-create people. Every facet of a person's character is perfectly preserved in the memory of God, in readiness for the day of the resurrection.

But the dead have no conscious existence in themselves. It is not possible for the dead to praise God, nor is it possible for them to manifest any hatred. While people are dead they can have no part in anything that is done under the sun. (Ps 115:17, Isa 38:18, Ecc 9:6)

And from our Bible Commentary:

"Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave... The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character..." (6Bible Comments p.1093, EGW)

 

[Aibrean]

That is messed up. The dead will be raised incorruptible, not re-incarnated. SO glad my husband left the SDA church. How could the man on the cross be with Jesus in paradise if he stopped existing. Be in paradise in memory only? That's real comforting.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

That is messed up. The dead will be raised incorruptible, not re-incarnated. SO glad my husband left the SDA church. How could the man on the cross be with Jesus in paradise if he stopped existing. Be in paradise in memory only? That's real comforting.

Thats what the Bible teaches.... how else can the dead be raised incorruptible but through a transforming process. We go down into the grave corrupted by sin so we must be 'reinvented' as it were, in the glory and righteousness of Christ.

The thief on the cross will be with Christ in paradise, when the rest of His redeemed are translated.

 

[Aibrean]

ECR: Jesus said "today", not thousands of years later.

 

[Mankin]

I'm not entirely certain what will happen. Will we stay in the ground until the Second coming or go up to heaven immediately? I can't say for certain, but the destination is the same either way. The latter is definitely more comforting though.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

ECR: Jesus said "today", not thousands of years later.

There's a slight problem with the way that this passage is currently understood, and thats that Jesus did not go to paradise the same day He spoke to the thief. We know this because of what it says in John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This shows that, three days after He died, He had not gone to paradise. So, was He dishonest with the thief? Or is there some other explaination to reconcile this....

When the original scripts and scrolls were written, there was no punctuation used. The translators, in 1611, inserted commas, semi colons etc, where they thought they should go. In the verse concerning Jesus speaking to the thief, they put the comma where they thought it should go, not realizing the conflict with the vese in John. If the comma is placed after the word 'today' and not before, then the verse is in harmony not only with the fact that Jesus could not have been with the thief that day, but it also brings that verse in harmony with the rest of the Bible that says we sleep after death and don't go anywhere til at least Christ comes.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm not entirely certain what will happen. Will we stay in the ground until the Second coming or go up to heaven immediately? I can't say for certain, but the destination is the same either way. The latter is definitely more comforting though.

I know that people want to believe that going to heaven immediately is better, but consider the following.

If a loved one dies, let's say a father, and he is immediately translated to heaven. If he is able to observe the goings on of his family left behind, as most believe, how would he feel if he sees his wifes new husband abusing her, or if he sees his kids growing up and getting involved in drugs, prostitution or abuse themselves. Would this be paradise to this man? Would the vese that says we will have no more pain, no more tears, no more sorrow, be true?

I believe that the way the Bible says that the state of death is, is the only merciful way that God could have set it up.

This is only one problem with the premise of immediate translation. We could also look at the issue of; when are we judged and why Jesus would need to come to raise the dead in Him from their graves? There is also the conflict with Satans lie that we would not surely die. If, when we die, immediately after we are alive in heaven, did we really die? Are not the wages of sin death? Was God right or was Satan?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

My question was about what the SDA church teaches on the matter.

 

[Mankin]

Funny how commas cause so much controversy. The same thing happened with the 2nd Amendment. Certain versions of it put the comma after the part about the right of citizens to bare arms thus making that phrase an appositive and making the main phrase about the right to form a militia. Other versions take that comma out making the main phrase about the right of individual gun ownership.

Anyway to answer your question soldier, Adventists believe in soul sleep. The breath of life goes back to God and the body remains in the ground until the Second Coming of Christ, when the body is brought back to life. Adventists also do not believe in the separation of the soul and the body. To use a philosophical example, they're more like Aristotle than Plato.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

My question was about what the SDA church teaches on the matter.

I just explained what the SDA's believe...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Anyway to answer your question soldier, Adventists believe in soul sleep. The breath of life goes back to God and the body remains in the ground until the Second Coming of Christ, when the body is brought back to life. Adventists also do not believe in the separation of the soul and the body. To use a philosophical example, they're more like Aristotle than Plato.

Actually it more like the difference between what the Bible says and what Greek philosophy has taught...

 

[Pythons]

At the time Jesus said that to the theif "all Jews" except the Sadducees....
...Believed at death the person went to the pit.
...Within the pit there was a place for the just and a place for evil.
...The evil suffered in torment while the just were in a place called paradise.

Paradise was NOT heaven.

So when Jesus told the theif they would both be in paradise THAT day....
...It simply meant that both of them would be in the 'good part' of sheol.

 

[Aibrean]

My point is not where he was specifically but that he didn't just "disappear into memory" and need to be re-incarnated later.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

At the time Jesus said that to the theif "all Jews" except the Sadducees....
...Believed at death the person went to the pit.
...Within the pit there was a place for the just and a place for evil.
...The evil suffered in torment while the just were in a place called paradise.

Paradise was NOT heaven.

So when Jesus told the theif they would both be in paradise THAT day....
...It simply meant that both of them would be in the 'good part' of sheol.

What??

Biblical reference for this would be nice...

Strongs lists the word used in Luke as the same one used in Revelation 2:7

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So in this 'holding place' in the grave, there is in the midst the tree of life?

I don't think so...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

My point is not where he was specifically but that he didn't just "disappear into memory" and need to be re-incarnated later.

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

So you believe what the serpent said to eve in the garden? That we will not surely die? We must be immortal if we never really see death but just a change of dimension.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

As I said, my question was about what the church teaches, not about personal opinions. Now, I am aware that it teaches that the dead are not concious during death, that is stated plainly in the 28 FBs. So there is no reason why this should even be discussed here.

My question was since consciousness does not remain, what does remain? I have heard "the breath of life leaves us". Also "the breath of life goes back to God" which suggests that it continues to exist. What exactly is this "breath of life"?

There was one post that was quite informative, but it seemed to make contradictory points.

But the dead have no conscious existence in themselves.

Do they have an unconscious existence in themselves? That's what I'm asking.

We teach that after death, the only place a person has any 'existence', is in the memory of God. From the "book of remembrance", God will re-create people. Every facet of a person's character is perfectly preserved in the memory of God, in readiness for the day of the resurrection.

So this would mean that nothing remains of a person at all after death? That the dead are essentially non-existent until God brings them back into existence at the resurrection. But the Bible commentary you quote seems to be saying something different...

"Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave... The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character..." (6Bible Comments p.1093, EGW)

This quote seems to say that there is a human spirit that continues to exist after death, which contains a person's nature, and that in this spirit the person has a continuous, albeit unconscious, existence until the resurrection.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Why does Jesus need to come back to resurrect our bodies if our 'essence' is already with Him in heaven? Could God not just take 'dust' from anywhere and re-animate us?

Why do we need to try and figure out the things of God? Doesn't He say that His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not His thoughts? Can we not just have faith in what he says?

Why ignore all the evidense in the Bilbe that says that we sleep til Jesus comes? Why is this concept so hard to embrace? Is it because it you think it is SDA doctrine and are rejecting on that? It is the plain teaching of the Bible my friend... do a word search of the scriptures for 'sleep' and see what the Word says.