What religion the State?

[RandyPNW]

And according to stories about the self-professed prophet Mani he could hear plants weeping when they were being cut. And in upstate New York Joseph Smith claimed God told him all churches were apostate and that he needed to restore the true church on earth.

So welcome to the club, lots of people hear things or think God is talking to them. I'll take my chances trusting the word of the Holy Gospel and confessing the faith in truth.

If it was just a fairy speaking to my brain, I'd agree with you. But in this case, every word was true. As I repented of my backsliding, and turned back to God, I discovered, to my horror, that the church I grew up in was closing their eyes to their youth drinking on religious outings. That was the rumor, but even my parents--hardened Lutherans--quit that church when they started letting teens have non-Christian rock concerts in the church basement. This wasn't just a word from God to my mind--it was a word of God to my eyes!

There are a lot of reasons for various schisms throughout history. And we have spent literally centuries arguing about it. And it's not going to get resolved on a discussion forum thread.

My goal isn't to resolve schisms among groups that are as different from one another as night and day. Some are not following the word of God, and some are. Let them disagree and remain apart! Our job, as genuine Christians, is to witness to the truth, and let God convict and change others.

Has it occurred to you that your understanding of Christianity, as you are presenting it here, is sectarian? That is, you are promoting your view of what Christianity is and should look like.

The point I've been trying to drive home is that your vision of Christianity is not shared by everyone else.

-CryptoLutheran

Disagreement between different Christians does not imply there is sectarianism on both sides. The disagreement on one side disagrees not with my word, but with God's word. God's word is in black and white, and others may disagree with it. But it is not sectarian of me to agree with the historic creeds and practices of the Christian Church.

It is, on the other hand, schismatic and sectarian of you if you reject Paul's admonition to be "of one mind." This does require a general doctrinal framework, or certain cardinal doctrines. But it does not require we be under a single hierarchy, or in agreement on everything. None of us are perfect.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Do you realize you could say that for absolutely any system? Judaism crucified Christ. Communism killed 20 million people under Stalin. Fascism murdered 6 million Jews under Hitler. Rome burned Christians alive and threw them to the lions under their pagan religion. Catholic countries burned Protestants at the stake. Hindus kill Muslims, and Muslims kill Hindus.

A newer philosophy in the world--belonging to democratic republics-- pretends to be tolerant and peaceful while it gradually evolves into a new tyranny, one of intolerance towards other political viewpoints. One leftist in the U.S. held up a severed head of Donald Trump.

Does this mean we should throw out all of these forms of government? Certainly we must when they arrive at the point of murder and despicable corruption. But the point is, all systems can go corrupt, but are not always in a state of corruption.

So to throw out all government because all forms of government go bad misses the point. Some forms of government can work perfectly well when people cooperate with God.

So if Christian people cooperate with God under a Christian form of government it can not only work, but it can also be blessed. That's what God told Israel on Mt. Gerazim. But he said on Mt. Ebal that if they don't perform well under a theistic form of government that He approves of, they will experience curses, and that society will crumble. The government will be viewed as a failure.

It just means no group of humans should have complete control over any number of other humans.

However, when a Christian tries to do it, we become a demonic entity defined in the bible as the beast - and we are no longer the salt of the earth.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

It is, on the other hand, schismatic and sectarian of you if you reject Paul's admonition to be "of one mind." This does require a general doctrinal framework, or certain cardinal doctrines. But it does not require we be under a single hierarchy, or in agreement on everything. None of us are perfect.

The problem here is that Roman Catholics would say the Scriptures do point to a single authority, the Papacy. Orthodox would be close behind in that Ignatius writes, "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop." Congregationalists say that the local church is the sole ecclesiastical authority.

Who determines the framework and then who determines who meets that criteria?

 

[RandyPNW]

The problem here is that Roman Catholics would say the Scriptures do point to a single authority, the Papacy. Orthodox would be close behind in that Ignatius writes, "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop." Congregationalists say that the local church is the sole ecclesiastical authority.

Who determines the framework and then who determines who meets that criteria?

People will not always agree due to the temptation to pride and to embrace a sectarian spirit. But it's practical necessity that dictates the logical framework for organizational unity.

If a nation or an empire is to remain united and free of strife and sedition, the religious structure in those political entities should show a certain amount of unity, whether it assumes a hierarchical form or simply a very broad agreement signed by the various denominations.

The tendency towards hierarchy is the same temptation Israel had when opting for a king--they had more faith in their own managed bureaucracy than in God. Nevertheless, as God accepted a monarchy on His own set terms, He also likely accepts religious hierarchies that meet His conditions.

 

[RandyPNW]

It just means no group of humans should have complete control over any number of other humans.

However, when a Christian tries to do it, we become a demonic entity defined in the bible as the beast - and we are no longer the salt of the earth.

Society has *always* required leadership, as well as an imposed system of government. God never saw it necessary to have a highly centralized form of government, but nevertheless approved of it with certain conditions.

I would agree with you that there are such a thing as "boundaries." No group of people have a right to assume control over the territories of other groups, unless of course it is taking place by the will of God, for purposes of divine judgment or for purposes of military defense.

There are occasions, such as in Israel presently, when those outside of Israel's borders, threaten the security and the sustenance of the country. Blocking off river water from mountains outside of Israel is an example. Or perhaps, a group of people nearby are setting up missile launchers to threaten Israel's people.

Sometimes, a nation has to enlarge itself to include needed natural resources and buffer zones to protect itself. Again, God determines what a "just war" is.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

People will not always agree due to the temptation to pride and to embrace a sectarian spirit. But it's practical necessity that dictates the logical framework for organizational unity.

If a nation or an empire is to remain united and free of strife and sedition, the religious structure in those political entities should show a certain amount of unity, whether it assumes a hierarchical form or simply a very broad agreement signed by the various denominations.

Under the Roman Emperor Justinian, the theme of the day was One Faith, One Church, One Emperor. Those that disagreed with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church were free to go worship outside of the Empire.

I don't get why people think we need to have a "Christianized" government, whatever that means. It simply is not practical.

 

[Hazelelponi]

But in this case, every word was true. As I repented of my backsliding, and turned back to God, I discovered, to my horror, that the church I grew up in was closing their eyes to their youth drinking on religious outings. That was the rumor, but even my parents--hardened Lutherans--quit that church when they started letting teens have non-Christian rock concerts in the church basement. This wasn't just a word from God to my mind--i

Look. I'm not Lutheran, but teenage kids are a difficult bunch.

I never knew what to do with mine most the time in their teenage years, was I going to drive them away with endless rules? How much freedom was I going to give them? How far is too far? You never know exactly where to thread that needle.

Instead of leaving the church, there are actually Biblical rules for how we, within church bodies, resolve disagreements.

Voices telling you to walk out, when your own eyes are still watering from the log recently in them, demanding you leave the church instead of following Scriptural commands... Well, quite frankly that's not God talking.

Churches aren't perfect, they are full of people just like you doing their best. We make churches better, through our own actions and involvement in accordance with God's written Word.

 

[Hazelelponi]

People will not always agree due to the temptation to pride and to embrace a sectarian spirit.

So says the man who actually listened to one instead of heeding Scriptural mandate to resolve disagreements.

Look, we don't all have the same beliefs. Some people think x, y, z is essential, others don't.

What I know is what Paul said:

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” 1 Corinthians 5:12-13

As a result I don't believe we are allowed to judge the unbeliever, rather, we exhort them to Christ - not through forcing them to follow laws they dont believe in, but in love.

If they join our churches and become a believer we spend time teaching them what God expects of them under the New Covenant - but we don't tolerate sin within the church. If a person refuses to stop living a lifestyle of habitual sin after admonishion and guidance - we are to excommunicate them, and remove them from church attendance in the hopes they will come to their senses. Then we leave the rest to God.

But we can't start kicking people out of our country for not following God's moral laws.

So what then? We MUST FOLLOW SCRIPTURAL MANDATE. It's not optional. Not even a tiny bit optional for us.

so we do... what? Start compromising our beliefs saying "Well that's only a tiny sin, but this one we declare huge!"? Doesn't take long at all practicing Christianity that way to turn into the church of Thyatira.

Secular government with our faith between us, our God, and our local church bodies is the only possible way.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If it was just a fairy speaking to my brain, I'd agree with you. But in this case, every word was true. As I repented of my backsliding, and turned back to God, I discovered, to my horror, that the church I grew up in was closing their eyes to their youth drinking on religious outings. That was the rumor, but even my parents--hardened Lutherans--quit that church when they started letting teens have non-Christian rock concerts in the church basement. This wasn't just a word from God to my mind--it was a word of God to my eyes!

If minors were consuming alcohol on religious outings, that is definitely something to be concerned about; but you also state that this was only a rumor.

By "non-Christian rock concerns in the church basement" do you happen to mean letting teenagers use the church basement to listen to music with friends in a safe environment where they aren't out making bad decisions on the streets?

Just wondering.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Society has *always* required leadership, as well as an imposed system of government. God never saw it necessary to have a highly centralized form of government, but nevertheless approved of it with certain conditions.

I would agree with you that there are such a thing as "boundaries." No group of people have a right to assume control over the territories of other groups, unless of course it is taking place by the will of God, for purposes of divine judgment or for purposes of military defense.

There are occasions, such as in Israel presently, when those outside of Israel's borders, threaten the security and the sustenance of the country. Blocking off river water from mountains outside of Israel is an example. Or perhaps, a group of people nearby are setting up missile launchers to threaten Israel's people.

Sometimes, a nation has to enlarge itself to include needed natural resources and buffer zones to protect itself. Again, God determines what a "just war" is.

There's a difference between leadership, and total control. I was talking about a situation of total control should never be, not leadership.

 

[RandyPNW]

If minors were consuming alcohol on religious outings, that is definitely something to be concerned about; but you also state that this was only a rumor.

By "non-Christian rock concerns in the church basement" do you happen to mean letting teenagers use the church basement to listen to music with friends in a safe environment where they aren't out making bad decisions on the streets?

Just wondering.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, the rumor about the church youth group partying w/ alcohol was told me by close friends who had formed a Christian band. They had been invited by the Lutheran youth group to perform for them at the ocean on their youth outing. These friends of mine were shocked to see the youth having smuggled in beer.

I'm not surprised. I grew up in this church. I attended Lutheran camp in the summer at a lake property the Lutheran churches own. We smuggled a friend--not a Christian--into the girls' part of the camp. Not very Christian, you think? But we thought it to be relatively harmless.

The rock music in the church basement is actually the youth section of the church. My parents had been defending that church against my accusations. But when they got into an argument with the pastor and board about a secular rock band performing for the youth in the basement, and my parents' complaints were overruled, they quit the church. True story.

 

[RandyPNW]

So says the man who actually listened to one instead of heeding Scriptural mandate to resolve disagreements.

Look, we don't all have the same beliefs. Some people think x, y, z is essential, others don't.

What I know is what Paul said:

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” 1 Corinthians 5:12-13

As a result I don't believe we are allowed to judge the unbeliever, rather, we exhort them to Christ - not through forcing them to follow laws they dont believe in, but in love.

If they join our churches and become a believer we spend time teaching them what God expects of them under the New Covenant - but we don't tolerate sin within the church. If a person refuses to stop living a lifestyle of habitual sin after admonishion and guidance - we are to excommunicate them, and remove them from church attendance in the hopes they will come to their senses. Then we leave the rest to God.

But we can't start kicking people out of our country for not following God's moral laws.

So what then? We MUST FOLLOW SCRIPTURAL MANDATE. It's not optional. Not even a tiny bit optional for us.

so we do... what? Start compromising our beliefs saying "Well that's only a tiny sin, but this one we declare huge!"? Doesn't take long at all practicing Christianity that way to turn into the church of Thyatira.

Secular government with our faith between us, our God, and our local church bodies is the only possible way.

A lot of what you say here is true for the local church, or for a denominational Church. But it wouldn't apply across an entire nation. When I refer to a Christian State, I'm talking about laws that govern the country, and not the requirements for membership in a local church.

The basic laws that determine that a nation is Christian would be conformity to the basic creeds of the church. Determining who is actually following those laws is determined different in the State than in the local church.

Even if a lot of people in the State are failing to practice Christianity, and even if some in the State aren't Christians at all, they are not exiled from the nation on this basis alone. The State remains Christian and the non-Christians remain citizens.

To the degree they break criminal laws, though, determine whether they go to jail or not. The State prosecutes people not for being non-Christian but rather, for behavior that threatens the peace of the State.

To the degree they defy Christian law determines whether a local church will rebuke them or excommunicate them. They can be removed from a local church, and still be citizens of a Christian State.

 

[RandyPNW]

Look. I'm not Lutheran, but teenage kids are a difficult bunch.

I never knew what to do with mine most the time in their teenage years, was I going to drive them away with endless rules? How much freedom was I going to give them? How far is too far? You never know exactly where to thread that needle.

Instead of leaving the church, there are actually Biblical rules for how we, within church bodies, resolve disagreements.

Voices telling you to walk out, when your own eyes are still watering from the log recently in them, demanding you leave the church instead of following Scriptural commands... Well, quite frankly that's not God talking.

Churches aren't perfect, they are full of people just like you doing their best. We make churches better, through our own actions and involvement in accordance with God's written Word.

If you don't enforce real biblical standards, you're a weak Christian. Yes, teens are a difficult bunch--I've endured 3 of them, and they were every bit as difficult as I was.

But my problem was that I didn't get the full Gospel in my youth. Nevertheless, giving the full Gospel isn't a magic cure for teens either.

I agree--we need to manage our homes and churches under Christian law, but not try to impose personal convictions on them. And yes, we should be lenient, and not too harsh.

 

[Hazelelponi]

. When I refer to a Christian State, I'm talking about laws that govern the country,

And that necessitates making the laws that govern the church become the law over every single man, woman, and child in that nation - or else it's not a "Christian" state it's a secular state, with Christian influences.

Which by the way we already have. It just so happens that our Christian influence is waning.

 

[RandyPNW]

Under the Roman Emperor Justinian, the theme of the day was One Faith, One Church, One Emperor. Those that disagreed with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church were free to go worship outside of the Empire.

I don't get why people think we need to have a "Christianized" government, whatever that means. It simply is not practical.

"Christianized" simply means for a country to convert from pagan law to Christian law. And Christian law does not have to be oppressive, although it does require standards for social order.

Justinian's law for the empire was built on a tradition in which there had been not one single patriarchate, but rather several. So one mammoth hierarchy may have been what existed within the Empire, but it was not necessarily how local Christian organizations operated.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

To the degree they defy Christian law determines whether a local church will rebuke them or excommunicate them. They can be removed from a local church, and still be citizens of a Christian State.

I declare that your heretical sect is non-Christian and that the following be enacted from the Justinian Code:

1. The Emperor Constantius to Taurus, Praetorian Prefect.

We have determined that the temples shall be immediately closed in all cities, and access to them forbidden to all, so that permission for further offending may be refused to those who are lost. We also wish everyone to abstain from sacrifices, and if any person should do anything of this kind, he shall be laid low with the avenging sword; and We decree that his property, after having been taken from him, shall be confiscated to the Treasury, and that the Governors of provinces shall also be punished, if they have neglected to suppress these crimes.

 

[RDKirk]

God's ideal for the State has always been Theism or Christianity. He showed this by giving Israel not just a State religion but very specific rules to live by. It's really no different in the NT era, because now God wants all nations to adopt the Christian religion, whether they choose to or not.

I would dispute that assertion. God did not merely find Israel and then give it a religion. God created Israel from scratch to be His own nation. There is no indication that Jesus intended the Roman Empire to adopt Christianity, rather His command is to pull people out of their national cultures into the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is the state of Christian citizenship. From the prophetic dream of Nebuchadnezzar in the book of Danial to the Revelation of John, it's clear that Jesus will not convert the nations of the world, he will destroy them.

There is no better religion for the State than Christianity, unless of course that Christianity is not really functioning as such.

The world is fallen. It will not be restored from its fallen state by the Church...that is also clear in scripture. This is a fallen world of tooth and claw and sword, and the order of the fallen world is kept by tooth and claw and sword. A nation in this fallen world must kept its order and its wealth by the sword, and indeed, Paul confirms this. But Jesus is also true: He who lives by the sword will die by the sword. Thus, every earthly nation falls.

I think many are concerned that Christianity, when it is mixed with the State, is purely nominal and functions in a purely perfunctory way. But that is pure cynicism. If the State can embrace the Christian religion as a State, then it certainly may be able to practice it in an effective way, if only temporarily and partially.

"Temporarily and partially" would not be Christian...and it certainly would not be "effective."

Many call us back to when Constantine began to tolerate the Christian religion within the Roman Empire. They say that sounded the death knell of Christianity, because then the State would begin to impose its pagan ways on the Christian religion, and Christian officials would become purely servants of a pagan State, abandoning their true Christianity.

But this was never true.

But it was true. Even Roger Williams recognized it as far back as 1644. The phrase "....hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world" was first used by Baptist theologian Roger Williams, the founder of the first Baptist congregation in America and the founder of Rhode Island, in his 1644 book "The Bloody Tenent of Persecution." It was from that phrase that Thomas Jefferson cribbed "....wall of separation between church and state" when writing to the Danbury Baptists. Williams carefully counted the points from Constantine to his time that the Church failed Christianity by trying to manage nations in a fallen world.

President Carter made an attempt at trying to manage the United States as though it was a nation of Christians. It didn't work. Not even Christians liked it.

 

[RDKirk]

This has happened in every State in history--all states eventually go corrupt, simply because of the sin nature in mankind. It isn't the Christianity that causes men to sin. Rather, it is the sin nature in men that causes them to corrupt Christianity.

You made that statement, yet you don't believe it.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

So you'd agree with this sentiment by a Christian leader in 2014?

"In addition to ethnic similarity, a common language, common elements of their material culture, a common territory, even though its borders were not marked then, and a nascent common economy and government, Christianity was a powerful spiritual unifying force that helped involve various tribes and tribal unions ... It was thanks to this spiritual unity that our forefathers for the first time and forevermore saw themselves as a united nation."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Alright, if we are going to talk about laws for this proposed Christian State, then we should probably look to St. Augustine's axiom, lex iniusta non est lex ("an unjust law is no law at all"); and thus we must make ensure just laws and not unjust ones.

Which compels us immediately to ask "what is justice?"; and since our standard for justice is to be found in God's justice, we should turn to ask ourselves what is God's justice, what is it biblically?

For that, let's turn our focus to the first chapter of St. Paul's letter to the Romans, verses 16-17,

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the justice of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" - Romans 1:16-17

This is St. Paul's thesis statement for the entire epistle to the Romans, and it provides us necessary information: God's justice is that justice revealed in the Gospel through faith, that is, God's justice is that justice by which we are justified by grace.

To quote Dr. Luther,

"Meanwhile in that same year, 1519, I had begun interpreting the Psalms once again. I felt confident that I was now more experienced, since I had dealt in university courses with St. Paul's Letters to the Romans, to the Galatians, and the Letter to the Hebrews. I had conceived a burning desire to understand what Paul meant in his Letter to the Romans, but thus far there had stood in my way, not the cold blood around my heart, but that one word which is in chapter one: 'The justice of God is revealed in it.' I hated that word, 'justice of God,' which, by the use and custom of all my teachers, I had been taught to understand philosophically as referring to formal or active justice, as they call it, i.e., that justice by which God is just and by which he punishes sinners and the unjust.

But I, blameless monk that I was, felt that before God I was a sinner with an extremely troubled conscience. I couldn't be sure that God was appeased by my satisfaction. I did not love, no, rather I hated the just God who punishes sinners. In silence, if I did not blaspheme, then certainly I grumbled vehemently and got angry at God. I said, 'Isn't it enough that we miserable sinners, lost for all eternity because of original sin, are oppressed by every kind of calamity through the Ten Commandments? Why does God heap sorrow upon sorrow through the Gospel and through the Gospel threaten us with his justice and his wrath?' This was how I was raging with wild and disturbed conscience. I constantly badgered St. Paul about that spot in Romans 1 and anxiously wanted to know what he meant.

I meditated night and day on those words until at last, by the mercy of God, I paid attention to their context: 'The justice of God is revealed in it, as it is written: "The just person lives by faith."' I began to understand that in this verse the justice of God is that by which the just person lives by a gift of God, that is by faith. I began to understand that this verse means that the justice of God is revealed through the Gospel, but it is a passive justice, i.e. that by which the merciful God justifies us by faith, as it is written: 'The just person lives by faith.' All at once I felt that I had been born again and entered into paradise itself through open gates. Immediately I saw the whole of Scripture in a different light. I ran through the Scriptures from memory and found that other terms had analogous meanings, e.g., the work of God, that is, what God works in us; the power of God, by which he makes us powerful; the wisdom of God, by which he makes us wise; the strength of God, the salvation of God, the glory of God.

I exalted this sweetest word of mine, 'the justice of God,' with as much love as before I had hated it with hate. This phrase of Paul was for me the very gate of paradise. Afterward I read Augustine's 'On the Spirit and the Letter,' in which I found what I had not dared hope for. I discovered that he too interpreted 'the justice of God' in a similar way, namely, as that with which God clothes us when he justifies us. Although Augustine had said it imperfectly and did not explain in detail how God imputes justice to us, still it pleased me that he taught the justice of God by which we are justified." - Internet History Sourcebooks

Now here is the justice revealed through the Gospel, the justice by which God renders sinners just by His grace, through faith which God graciously grants to us and creates in our hearts by the Gospel (Romans 10:17, Ephesians 2:8).

In light of this, God's Law which cannot justify sinners, but only condemn them, is not a tool used against others, but rather is the mirror which we ourselves must gaze into to behold ourselves as the true, naked, helpless beggars that we are.

We are without anything of merit before God. It is by the justice of God revealed in the Gospel, imputed to us through faith, that renders us just by justifying us. For here Christ is our righteousness (1 Corinthians 1:30).

The Law also, for us, serves as a guide on how we ought to conduct ourselves. And so here is probably where the matter of laws comes into play: laws which are faithful to God's Law in its exercise in how we conduct ourselves in relation to all our neighbors and, indeed, with God's creation.

And so to that end, we must take as our standard of just conduct the Commands of Jesus Christ.

So let's look at that,

"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven, for so their fathers did to the prophets.

But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
Woe to you who are full now, for you shall be hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.
Woe to you, when people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.

But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the thankless and the wicked. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you." - Luke 6:20-38

We also know that, in God's dominion, the least is greatest, the last is first, and the greatest is the slave.

As such we must have laws that first and foremost uplift the lowly, social safety nets, and a deeply robust welfare system that protects and lifts up the poor, the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the stranger, and the oppressed.

Further, retaliation is forbidden, Jesus says in Matthew 5:23-24 that if there is any anger between two, that it is a higher obligation to make amends than to bringing offering to the altar. As such courts of retaliation must not exist; but systems of reconciliation. Accused and accuser must come together, and in a spirit of peace make amends, finding forgiveness with one another. For there is no longer an "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", if one strikes us on the one cheek we must turn to offer the other one as well.

So retaliatory judgments cannot be exercised by the courts of this state; but rather the court exists to help provide mending of wounds--social wounds.

Whoever seeks vengeance, even through a court of law, violates the command of Christ who calls us to forgive, to turn the other cheek, and to shut up the opportunity of anger in our heart.

This does place some pretty heavy limits on such a state.

In such a hypothetical Christian State, for example, there is no place for a military, though there is a place for healing and compassion to be worked out. A Christian State could not, for example, retaliate if attacked by a foreign power; since such a State is obligated by the commandments of Christ our God.

There is no room for the sword in such a state, even though St. Paul in Romans 13 says that the state wields the sword against evil, this refers to the Pagan States, such as Pagan Rome. A Christian State cannot wield the sword, since it is a Christian state. It can no more wield the sword than it can offer worship to idols. For Christ forbids the carrying of arms when He tells His disciples to knock it off when they take his sword-carrying statement too literally, and rebukes Peter for using the sword, "All who live by the sword will die by the sword". Jesus has no use for the sword, He is instead the One who bends down to heal the cut ear of the soldier who has come to arrest Him.

A Christian state must be a place of peace, not the sword. With laws of social uplift for the weak, the poor, and the disadvantaged. As such, the overwhelming tax burden--and there should be a lot of taxes since such a Christian state and nation cannot have an ethos of selfish individualism, but rather compassionate communitarianism--as such the tax burden falls upon those who can afford it more than those who cannot. And, since it is a Christian state it cannot punish when taxes are not paid, as the Lord's Prayer has taught us to forgive sins and debts against us even as our sins and debts are forgiven. Thus no one can be held in debt; there is instead forgiveness of debts.

I feel like I could continue, but I suspect this post is already far too long.

-CryptoLutheran