What Rapture?

[SoccerAaron]

Seems there is this idea of a "secret rapture", created around the mid 1800's I believe. It means that at a certain time(for the past 60 years the time has been "sometime in my generation) all christian will suddenly go *poof* and go to heaven. But I haven't seen this in the Bible. It appears that none of the Church Father di either because they don't speak of it. Kind of like they think the Trib already happened.( ). So whats your take on this so called "rapture"?

S.D.G,
Aaron


P.S I'm not a full preterist, an correct me if I got anything wrong.

 

[dmac5]

If I were to quote one piece of scripture to allude to a secret rapture, prior to the trib, I would use this;

 

Rev12:<SUP>1</SUP> And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: <SUP>2</SUP> And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. <SUP>3</SUP> And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. <SUP>4</SUP> And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. <SUP>5</SUP> And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

&nbsp;

The "man child".&nbsp; Some say this "man child" is Jesus, if that is so, what do they do with the following?

Rev1:<SUP>1</SUP> The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Here Jesus is showing John what must shortly come to pass, long after Jesus was a child, and these things would come to pass after Jesus showed them to John in 96AD, about 100 years since Jesus' birth, and at least 60 years after Jesus' ascension into heaven.

&nbsp;

The catching up of the man child occurs at the beginning of the tribulation.&nbsp; The "man child" is described as ruling with a rod of iron.&nbsp; If you look carefully, you will see something similar mentioned to one of the churches in Revelation;

&nbsp;

<SUP>18</SUP> And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; <SUP>19</SUP> I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. <SUP>20</SUP> Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. <SUP>21</SUP> And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. <SUP>22</SUP> Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. <SUP>23</SUP> And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. <SUP>24</SUP> But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. <SUP>25</SUP> But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. <SUP>26</SUP> And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: <SUP>27</SUP> And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[Jesusong]

One thing I've noticed lately is how the rapture has become known as the "secret" rapture. There's nothing secret about it. When it happens everyone will know it happened.

1Thess4:15-18

15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

This&nbsp; is the rapture. The words "caught up" is where the word rapture comes from. It doesn't say there's anything secret about it.

&nbsp;

 

[ephod]

.

 

[dmac5]

Heya Ephod,

I am not seeking to subjectively interpret anything, quite the contrary, I am pointing out that this "man child" is caught up prior to, or at the beginning of the trib.&nbsp; Where we differ is, I do not interpret the "man child" to be Jesus.&nbsp; I don't see how one can interpret that "man child" to be Jesus, when the first verse in Revelation states;

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

If the events of Revelation must shortly come to pass, SIXTY years after Jesus' ascension, and if the "man child" is Jesus, then there must be a second ascension of the Lord?&nbsp; I have given you the verses to prove why I think the way that I do.&nbsp; Perhaps you are holding out on me, sandbagging some verses to prove your point, by which I might stand corrected?

Just FYI, I am not a pretribber, midtribber, or posttribber, I am all three.

&nbsp;

Someone else listed these verses;

1Thess4:15-18

15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be <B>caught up</B> together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


&nbsp;

I believe these verses to be speaking of a post trib rapture, to occur at the time of the 7th trumpet, prior to the 7 vials, and prior to Armageddon, along with similar verses in 1Corinthians14-15.

 

[Gideon4God]

Today at 04:46 AM SoccerAaron said this in Post #1

Seems there is this idea of a "secret rapture", created around the mid 1800's I believe. It means that at a certain time(for the past 60 years the time has been "sometime in my generation) all christian will suddenly go *poof* and go to heaven. But I haven't seen this in the Bible. It appears that none of the Church Father di either because they don't speak of it. Kind of like they think the Trib already happened.( ). So whats your take on this so called "rapture"?

S.D.G,
Aaron


P.S I'm not a full preterist, an correct me if I got anything wrong.

There are a couple other eary figures that believed either in the Rapture or the Millenial reign. Augustine believed in the millenial reign, but later repented when corrected. I think it was the same for Justin Martyr. I think the earliest Rapture was in the 400's or so, from a monkpriest near Constantinople. He was condemned for his heresy and stood alone. It's one possible way of reading the Bible, so it's not surprising that it surfaced early. The thing is though in each case it was the result of people trying to firgure stuff out for themselves, not being taught the faith passed down. More importantly, once the faith was set down &amp; accessable, there was no more rising of these ideas. It's not a matter of a continuing tradition, a group believing in the pre-trib rapture down through the ages, it's a matter of a movement based on a "vision" starting in the early 1900's or so, and then when challenged searching through history to try to find someone they could claim a "connection" to. So if it's true, God let the true faith die out for centuries, and then brought it back through much, much later. To me that would mean that He broke His promise to always be with His Church. The Orthodox faith on the other hand has continuity from the earliest times to now. It's not just that it's old and the other is new, it's that it's continuous and the other is an idea that's spiratically popular. CopticOrthodox

&nbsp;

I thought Copty had a good post on the subject.

 

[dmac5]

Biblical prophecy is, until it is fulfilled, a subject of speculation for believers.&nbsp; Countless arguments have arisen throughout thousands of years, over events that have yet to happen, and, if the truth be told, arguments arise to this day when it comes to applying the Word to scripture passages that we know to be historic.

Someone said;

It's not a matter of a continuing tradition, a group believing in the pre-trib rapture down through the ages, it's a matter of a movement based on a "vision" starting in the early 1900's or so, and then when challenged searching through history to try to find someone they could claim a "connection" to. So if it's true, God let the true faith die out for centuries, and then brought it back through much, much later.

&nbsp;

Let us put some things in perspective.&nbsp; Outside of scholars, priests, etc, the written Word, was not available to 99.9% of the planet for most of recorded history.&nbsp; It was not until King James ordered the translation of the Texus Receptus, that things began to move forward.&nbsp; Distribution of the Bible to the common man really did not begin until about the time of Martin Luther.&nbsp; That being said, it is easy to see, at least for me, why those, who having lived during a time when the Bible was readily available, would have a more complete understanding, than their forefathers who did not have the same luxury.&nbsp; It would not be a matter of God abandoning the church for centuries or letting faith die out,&nbsp;etc, it would be God putting His words in the hands of men, as HE sees fit.&nbsp; Prophecies of the end days are sealed until the time that they will occur.&nbsp; I am sure that there have been many who have studied the prophecies throughout the ages with great interest, and many have written about their finds.&nbsp; Regardless, all is speculation until the events unfold, and we can all rest assured that those who see the events take place, will have a more complete understanding of what was written, than their forefathers did gained by studious speculation.

 

[Chriƒt]

This is the rapture. The words "caught up" is where the word rapture comes from. It doesn't say there's anything secret about it.

&nbsp;

Trumpet, loud comand and the voice of the angel sounds like everyone will know what is going on.

 

[paulewog]

When you talk about "Well this belief wasn't around until the whatever-th century," keep in mind that for a long time, those that held such "heretical" views were.. hm. Disposed of?

It's hard to write a book when you're dead.

I will try not to get into preterism, and only deal with the rapture... (I think there are huge flaws with figuratising/spiritualising Revelation and such).

John 14:1-3... the one about the mansions, and "... I will come agian, and recieve you unto myself."

1st Corinthians 15:51, 52 - "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.'

And now we come to Revalation passages...

Revalation 3:10 - "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

When you compare passages about what I believe speak about the rapture with passages that talk about Christ's second coming, there's a disctinction - one speaks about judgement, one doesn't.

Furthermore, as Revalation 3:10 said, we're going to be kept ouf ot the judgement ... that will come upon the whole WORLD.

 

[ephod]

.

 

[paulewog]

And the other passages?

 

[ephod]

.

 

[calisa]

Seems there is this idea of a "secret rapture", created around the mid 1800's I believe. It means that at a certain time(for the past 60 years the time has been "sometime in my generation) all christian will suddenly go *poof* and go to heaven. But I haven't seen this in the Bible. It appears that none of the Church Father di either because they don't speak of it. Kind of like they think the Trib already happened.( ).

Looks like I'm with you

 

[Gwyn]

Eight years ago the Lord showed me in His word that there would be no great disappearance of Christians off the earth. This is in reading all the same scripture that people throw around when arguing this topic from both sides. The understanding came from the Holy Spirit. While it would be a whole lot easier and provide a much less stressful look at the future to just believe that I'll be pulled out just when it gets bad, it's not going to happen.

We will enter into the tribulation and if we are listening closely to our Lord we will be protected and sheltered by Him from the wrath that will come to those who scoff and mock Him. If we are walking in the Spirit and listening to Him above any and all men, then we will know what to do and when. Much like it is for us now but I believe on a bigger scale. During this time, I believe we will all face what Peter did when he denied Jesus three times (fear) but we have the Holy Spirit to guide us where Peter did not at that time.

I have no idea exactly how we will be protected in terms of the natural, I've heard a great many interpretations and ideas from people but don't know if any of them are accurate. To me, unless the Lord confirms something both in His word and in my spirit through the Holy Spirit it remains just a possibility.

Gwyn

 

[jayswife29]

How can the beast in revelation 13 make war with the saints and overcome them if we will be protected during the tribulation?