Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Not being funny, but doesn't this describe like half the members here?
People are doomed to hell if they do not ask for forgiveness. It's a choice of either coming to Jesus Christ in faith, or rejecting Him entirely for an idol that does not hear nor save. You're flaming me as fanatical only because I believe what your church apparently believes
I'm a good judge of character: I don't describe a person's soul as black without merit.
He's probably one of those ultra-conservative Bible thumpers who makes ample use of the word 'heathen'.
I have little patience for one those kind when they strive to be some sort of affront towards me and my beliefs.
My church has fully embraced the notion that even an atheist can be saved if their heart is right and they follow the natural law.
If you don't believe me, look it up, ask a Catholic, and record it so you don't forget it since obviously the three times I said it didn't make it from the ear to the brain.
I am done with you, welcome to my ignore list. Goodbye
I am done with you, welcome to my ignore list. Goodbye
I cannot understand why some people do not see the good in so many things that represent God, and instead tear down or attempt to destroy those things that were built by many through an attempt to further the Gospel, even if it is by a means not agreeable to everyone. Even though I am not Catholic, my respect for what the church has gone through throughout history to bring about a change on this planet that protected the scriptures we are able to read, to go into countries and help build monastery's to help spread the word of Christ and to console so many people throughout the ages as the only church, was a big undertaking.
Whether I would be considered a heretic or not, I never considered the Catholic church an enemy, and as a matter of fact, believe it deserves it's due respect for many accomplishments in it's long history. We each have a choice. I would pray for my Catholic friends (or any church) as I would hope that they would pray for me. In the end, our enemy is the same.
Amen! I think the enemy makes a mess of things when it comes to the Gospel. I mean, wouldn't it be JUST LIKE satan to drive Christians away from each other via theological perspectives?
Seriously, I love theology. Really, I can't get enough of His Word and learning more and more about just WHO God is. But I love my Creator MORE than my thoughts about Him, because my thoughts, not being His thoughts, may just be wrong. If they are, He will eventually show me, and I can't be too wrapped up in my pride to see it.
But I look at all the differing opinions and interpretations that Christians have, and I wonder, maybe God isn't worried so much about our semantics as He is about where our hearts are. If we spend more time arguing with other believers than we do listening for His voice, then aren't we defeating the purpose of even believing in Him?
Haha I talk too much
Amen! I think the enemy makes a mess of things when it comes to the Gospel. I mean, wouldn't it be JUST LIKE satan to drive Christians away from each other via theological perspectives?
Seriously, I love theology. Really, I can't get enough of His Word and learning more and more about just WHO God is. But I love my Creator MORE than my thoughts about Him, because my thoughts, not being His thoughts, may just be wrong. If they are, He will eventually show me, and I can't be too wrapped up in my pride to see it.
But I look at all the differing opinions and interpretations that Christians have, and I wonder, maybe God isn't worried so much about our semantics as He is about where our hearts are. If we spend more time arguing with other believers than we do listening for His voice, then aren't we defeating the purpose of even believing in Him?
Haha I talk too much
Oh, I'm logically consistent. I'm upset because there is a deranged blowhard posing as a Christian on a forum site harassing anyyone who doesn't agree with him.
I'm a good judge of character: I don't describe a person's soul as black without merit.
He's probably one of those ultra-conservative Bible thumpers who makes ample use of the word 'heathen'.
I have little patience for one those kind when they strive to be some sort of affront towards me and my beliefs.
So at what point are you going to realize you're talking to a fellow who believes the God of the Old Testament was the ignorant, evil Demiurge, that the prophecies of the Messiah are false and were his invention, and that Jesus did not die for our sins, but to give spiritual "wisdom" which is neither wisdom or knowledge of anything worth knowing about?
Exactly how many interpretations are there in the plain words of Jesus Christ, which I have provided on multiple occasions, can you find? Either you are saved by Christ, or you aren't. Will you really live in a world where words don't mean anything, where everyone's idol is the one true God, and where all persons hope above hope that they, personally, are "good" and "holy" and justified of themselves before the god of their imagination? But it is through Christ only that we are justified, and not through religions that deny that He justifies at all, who also, coincidentally, deny even His divinity.
Instead of wishing Godspeed to people who are utterly against every understanding of the scripture, read the scripture and believe what it says instead.
A few of our critics have indicated that the LDS will not be saved because of the beliefs we hold. This is a challenge for anyone who supports that view to provide actual scriptures that shows our beliefs prevent us from being saved.
Scripture says if we speak with tongues of men and angels but don't have love, we are only a percussion instrument
. If you attack me with lies again, I will report you to the moderators. You're nothing but trouble. [/FONT]
[/FONT]
So now you're back to the universalist argument, just a sentence away from being an uber-Catholic.
I'll give you a twofer.
Here is the Catechism
""Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336"
I would like to wade in here as things seem to be getting out of control...couple of things.
1: I am an "uber-Catholic" (just for clarification)
2: you are misrepresenting SIM's statement, I find that comical. He stated that the Catholic Church does not "doom" anyone to Hell..very true statement, She does not/will not declare anyone as damned, that is for God alone.
Now, unlike most protestant church's, the Catholic Church does not teach that if you do not believe EXACTLY like her or if you are not in full communion with her, you are going to hell...that (I believe) is SIM's point.
I've met Uber-Catholics. They aren't usually Universalists.
Not dooming anyone to hell, but very absolutely declaring that there is salvation outside of Christianity, necessarily denying the need for Evangelizing, is very different. He even declared that Mormons are "not necessarily non-trinitarians," while at the same time damning Protestants, apparently. There is no confusion of the Catholic Church's position on the LDS.
But the scripture is in fact even clearer on this, even if individual Catholics, like Popes for instance, give contradictory views.
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Protestant Churches don't require total correct doctrine, just on the essentials. Here, I'll quote a Protestant Church leader on the topic:
But can anyone deny Jesus Christ, that He is in fact God, who did die for our sins and rose again, so that any who believe on Him may be saved? Can anyone be saved worshiping a "different Jesus," or believing in a Gospel that contradicts what was handed down to us by the Apostles? These are foundational issues, even if not everyone is agreed on predestination, Bible prophecy, or celebrating Holy days.
There's no room here for another Jesus in any of these quotes. Considering that every Mormon, Jehovah's Witness and Gnostic has had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, and still denied the Trinity and other essentials of Christianity, they cannot be said to deny Christ "through no fault of their own" even by your own lax definitions. It's certainly their fault if they deny the plain reading of the scripture.
This is why guys like Michael Voris, or conservative Bishops, are still bringing in Catholic Converts, whereas the Catholic Church at large is in constant defense mode to get along and, therefore, is becoming less and less relevant. While I disagree vehemently with them on many issues and consider them opponents, they attract converts because they're standing for something. There is simply nothing compelling in a religion that doesn't stand by truth claims. In the old days, the Catholics would burn to death heretics and schismatics. Now they stand with them, provided they are united against quotes like these:
I've met Uber-Catholics. They aren't usually Universalists.
Not dooming anyone to hell, but very absolutely declaring that there is salvation outside of Christianity, necessarily denying the need for Evangelizing, is very different. He even declared that Mormons are "not necessarily non-trinitarians," while at the same time damning Protestants, apparently. There is no confusion of the Catholic Church's position on the LDS.
But the scripture is in fact even clearer on this, even if individual Catholics, like Popes for instance, give contradictory views.
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Protestant Churches don't require total correct doctrine, just on the essentials. Here, I'll quote a Protestant Church leader on the topic:
Rom 14:1-6 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. (2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. (3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. (4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
But can anyone deny Jesus Christ, that He is in fact God, who did die for our sins and rose again, so that any who believe on Him may be saved? Can anyone be saved worshiping a "different Jesus," or believing in a Gospel that contradicts what was handed down to us by the Apostles? These are foundational issues, even if not everyone is agreed on predestination, Bible prophecy, or celebrating Holy days.
Gal_1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1Jn_5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
There's no room here for another Jesus in any of these quotes. Considering that every Mormon, Jehovah's Witness and Gnostic has had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, and still denied the Trinity and other essentials of Christianity, they cannot be said to deny Christ "through no fault of their own" even by your own lax definitions. It's certainly their fault if they deny the plain reading of the scripture.
This is why guys like Michael Voris, or conservative Bishops, are still bringing in Catholic Converts, whereas the Catholic Church at large is in constant defense mode to get along and, therefore, is becoming less and less relevant. While I disagree vehemently with them on many issues and consider them opponents, they attract converts because they're standing for something. There is simply nothing compelling in a religion that doesn't stand by truth claims. In the old days, the Catholics would burn to death heretics and schismatics. Now they stand with them, provided they are united against quotes like these:
Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
What is your definition of universalist?
I agree, the Church clearly teaches that Salvation comes only from Christ Jesus...how one obtains this necessary salvation is the question...
Contradictory to whom?
My copy reads a little differently...
It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino â Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV | Catholicism.org
Again the "HOW" they are added to the flock is the question...
The problem is there is no universal Protestant Church...you cannot say that Protestant Church's dont require this or that...that simply isnt true, there are too many church's to paint any type of broad statement...
Again...only God can judge their hearts...to the LDS or JW they are following what they believe to be truth...if they know the Trinitarian Jesus to be truth and choose to follow something else, that is another matter.
This is just laughable...the Catholic Church is not in defense mode...I teach RCIA and see hundreds of adults convert every year...YOUR opinion is just that...your's...
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?