What Prevents The LDS From Being Saved

Ran77 said:

A few of our critics have indicated that the LDS will not be saved because of the beliefs we hold. This is a challenge for anyone who supports that view to provide actual scriptures that shows our beliefs prevent us from being saved.

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I think I have expressed my beliefs ongoing as I have been here. It is not the label of the church that saves a person, but the inner intent of the spirit, the core that accepts Jesus as Lord and attempts to do the will of the Father, and the Father see's the heart and knows more than any man what lies within.

All churches have their lost as well as their saved. We are all ignorant, and fall short of Gods glory, but trusting in him, he will deliver all who search for him. We just must be careful of any that say that they will be first, because we know what Jesus said.

Phantasman said:

I think I have expressed my beliefs ongoing as I have been here. It is not the label of the church that saves a person, but the inner intent of the spirit, the core that accepts Jesus as Lord and attempts to do the will of the Father, and the Father see's the heart and knows more than any man what lies within.

All churches have their lost as well as their saved. We are all ignorant, and fall short of Gods glory, but trusting in him, he will deliver all who search for him. We just must be careful of any that say that they will be first, because we know what Jesus said.

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Nicely put.

Phantasman said:

I think I have expressed my beliefs ongoing as I have been here. It is not the label of the church that saves a person, but the inner intent of the spirit, the core that accepts Jesus as Lord and attempts to do the will of the Father, and the Father see's the heart and knows more than any man what lies within.

All churches have their lost as well as their saved. We are all ignorant, and fall short of Gods glory, but trusting in him, he will deliver all who search for him. We just must be careful of any that say that they will be first, because we know what Jesus said.

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First I agree that a person is saved or not saved by their denomination but by Jesus alone. The question them begs to be answered is the god you are following the historic biblical Christ?

Matthew 16:13-20

New International Version (NIV)

Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

tigger45 said:

First I agree that a person is saved or not saved by their denomination but by Jesus alone. The question them begs to be answered is the god you are following the historic biblical Christ?

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Do you know of more than one Christ if Jesus is named savior?

Ran77 said:

A few of our critics have indicated that the LDS will not be saved because of the beliefs we hold. This is a challenge for anyone who supports that view to provide actual scriptures that shows our beliefs prevent us from being saved.

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A lot of Christians simply see the LDS belief as bizarre, that's all. Some people make the mistake of thinking they are holier then others because of their theology and belief when it's really about the person's soul and relationship with God.

The Bible tells something that nobody on Earth can override, even my church, and it's that a good man has nothing to fear by God. Follow the natural law, be generous, and love, and you are secured. If that is not the case, then there is no god and we have nothing to fear anyway.

Ran77 said:

A few of our critics have indicated that the LDS will not be saved because of the beliefs we hold. This is a challenge for anyone who supports that view to provide actual scriptures that shows our beliefs prevent us from being saved.

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The answer is simple. The LDS itself prevents salvation from the Christian standpoint because they simply don't believe in it anyway. You are literally from a different religion asking another religion to be saved according to their definition.

It was predicted that Christ would be cut off for the sins of the people as a sacrificial lamb who would reconcile us with God.

Dan_9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Isa 53:5-6 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isa 53:10-12 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Joh 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Num 21:7-9 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. (8) And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. (9) And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Faith in Jesus Christ is necessary, as there is no other way for one to be saved. Like the serpent in the wilderness, if you don't confess Jesus you are yet in your sins.

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Damnation is eternal, and is unavoidable outside of Jesus Christ.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mar 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Rev_20:10; 15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And salvation is not divided up into various levels of glory, but rather heaven and Earth shall become one at the end of the world and all of God's people shall dwell with Him.

Rev 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The issue at stake here is justification (being made right with God), and not deification as in Mormonism. The LDS believes that Christ's works (specifically, his time in the garden, not on the cross) opened up the way for ALL to be immediately saved from the sin of Adam and are guaranteed eternal life (in some form), regardless of belief or unbelief. Mormonism differentiates between a general salvation and an individual salvation.

"As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind. Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God."

Atonement of Jesus Christ

Eternal life with God means that those who kept the "celestial law" will spend all eternity with God the Father in the Celestial Kingdom, where they will live eternally with their family and "be like God." Or, in other words, will become gods, at least for those in the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom. Those who did not obey, or who don't manage it well enough are still a little lower in the food chain in the Celestial Kingdom, and those in the Terrestrial and Telestial are even lower. They are sorted according to the "law" they kept, and at that based on how well they did it. But there is no hellfire here.

"Eternal life is the phrase used in scripture to define the quality of life that our Eternal Father lives. The Lord declared, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God's presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3).

Eternal Life

Doctrine and Covenants 132: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

Doctrines & Covenants 88:21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom. 22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. 23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. 24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial bkingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

All of these Kingdoms are described as simply lower levels of heaven, which are still very great (in Mormonism), albeit Jesus only visits, and the inhabitants thereof envy the Mormons in the Celestial Kingdom.

"I cannot for a minute conceive the telestial being hell, either, because it is considered a heaven, a glory. The Prophet Joseph Smith told us that if we could get one little glimpse into the telestial glory even, the glory is so great that we would be tempted to commit suicide to get there." (Eldred G. Smith, March 10, 1964, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1964, p. 4)

"Humanity will be grouped according to their works in three main divisions: Celestial (like the sun), Telestial (like the moon), Terrestrial (like the earth). Within each group there will be many gradations and divisions, until from the lowest to the highest in all groups there will be a series of gradually ascending glories. There can be no talk of a hell, except for the few 'sons of Perdition,' but undoubtedly the regret for lost opportunities will be keen among those in the lower degrees of glory." (John Widtsoe, Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 226)

This great regret is the Mormon explanation for the everlasting torment as found in scriptures.

“Eternal damnation is the opposite of eternal life, and all those who do not gain eternal life, or exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial kingdom, are partakers of eternal damnation. Their eternal condemnation is to have limitations imposed upon them so that they cannot progress to the state of godhood and gain a fullness of all things” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.234)

Those who are unable to abide even the telestial law will be sent back to Outer Darkness, but even this is only temporary until they are then able to abide it.

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, 'Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit' (D&C 19:16-18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom" (Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 244).

Thus Mormonism is Universalist, at least eventually, and not including the Devil and his angels who remain in outer darkness. Mormonism does not believe there is anything to be saved from, beyond the terrible fate of not becoming a god of your own planet.

The acceptance of Henotheism as opposed to Monotheism is probably the biggest in my opinion.

Ran77 said:

:o

The LDS don't believe in Salvation? First I've heard of it.


And the LDS have not asked another religion to save them. What a strange concept you have presented.


:o

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Try reading the post and responding to it. You know full well what it is I said, and it is NOT this.

Ran77 said:

Let's take a look.


Your comments:

"The LDS itself prevents salvation from the Christian standpoint because they simply don't believe in it anyway. You are literally from a different religion asking another religion to be saved according to their definition."


My comments: (Color-coded to make it easier to match them up.)

"The LDS don't believe in Salvation? First I've heard of it."


"And the LDS have not asked another religion to save them. What a strange concept you have presented."



Those appear to be accurate observations of your comments. But I can only go by what you wrote, not what you might have been thinking in your head.

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The entire post was about Mormon views of salvation, contrasted with the scripture (which you requested). If you have a problem with any of it, or require something more, then ask for it. Pretending it's not there doesn't make it go away.

Ran77 said:

Okay, good start. Would you please explain to me how that prevents salvation? And if you have some scripture to go along with it I would be interested in reading that, please.

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Mark 12:28-34 and its parallels in Matt 22:34-40 and Luke 10:25-28, if we look at what they all are quoting we find that it is Deuteronomy 6:4ff Hear, you men of Israel, Yahweh is God, Yahweh alone. A statement of monotheism. in discussing the food offered to idols in I Corinthians 8 he does not validate the existence of other Gods rather he quotes Deuteronomy 6:4 again, this time in a modified trinitarian format; there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. This is not a statement that matter or intelligences is eternal but rather that God is eternal that it is he who made ALL things, all things stem from him and all things exist because of him. I'm reminded of Col 1 where it states that Jesus Christ is the creator of all things, all things were created by him, for him and in him all things hold together. The fundamental aspect of Christian monotheism is that of a creator God, not one of infinities of created gods as the Mormons would have us believe, even though we are only to worship the one.

The ego of the Prophet of Mormonism can truly be seen in some of the strange beliefs that they hold to, the exaltation of man to Godhood in order that he might be worshipped by his children, the idea of sex after glorification, the need for polygamy in order to be glorified and the list goes on and on.