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What possible obverstations that can falsified special creation??

SkyWriting

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In other words what possible observation would led you to conclude that Adam & Eve, etc weren't created by Special Creation?

Science needs to recreate experiments or observations.
Nothing accomplished by Special Creation can be
observed a second time nor can similar events be
observed on demand.

The real process of science
 
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juvenissun

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In other words what possible observation would led you to that adam and eve etc weren't created by special creation?
A similar thread was posted in society section and it's a good question to ask.

What is that?
 
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C

Carmella Prochaska

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In order to falsify the existence of our 1st parents, Adam & Eve, a person would need to provide me with hard evidence from the fossil record as well as a mechanism for change. The general progression is

australopithecus ---> homo habilis ---> homo erectus ---> homo sapiens

Australopithecines in my opinion were apes. I've researched them extensively & they don't seem to be on the way to human at all. Their pelvis is considered human-like & so it is claimed that they were full bipeds. This has numerous problems considering that most of their anatomy was essentially ape, including their ape head, upper body, fingers, toes etc. Their hip bones were flared like an ape making bipedality more difficult. Scans of the inner ear bones (for balance) of australopiths like africanus & robustus were almost identical to living apes showing that they were not habitually bipeds. My guess is that they were tree-dwellers who engaged in knuckle-walking (wrist-locking mechanism was found) & limited bipedality like living apes. Interestingly enough, apes like gibbons today walk on 2 legs all the time but no one is going to say they're evolving into humans.

Homo habilis is really quite a confusing taxon because typically most of the bones are ape with few very similar to erectus. There's a homo habilis specimen known as Stw 53 & it's touted as an ancestor but lo & behold it locomoted like a baboon (as shown by it's inner ear anatomy). Homo habilis has very few substantial bones to it's name compared to the other names in the progression & I've never seen a good skeletal representation of it's anatomy post-cranially. Essentially, according to 2 paleoanthropologists, habilis an ape-like body size, ape body shape, ape locomotion, ape jaws & teeth, ape development & brain size.

Homo erectus in my opinion seems pretty fully human. Anyone can see that by their anatomy, even some people today have such erectus features. They were also very smart because they built boats & had seafaring skills which is something I wish I could do.

In order for Adam & Eve not to have been real, there would also need to be a clear mechanism for change from ape to human, so that new info is added into the genome. The most common one is mutation & natural selection. Mutations, however, are usually deleterious or neutral. Beneficial mutations are rare & usually have little effect if any at all. It would take vast population numbers for even a single good mutation to become fixed & this random mutation is unlikely to bring an ape 1 step closer to human. In addition, coordinated mutations have to occur whereby the mutation affects specific genes & simultaneity has to be invoked. Current population numbers do not support humans being around for 200,000 years. Our numbers would have been massive by now.

According to the 23rd General Population Conference in Beijing in 1997 the population was 1 million in 2000 BC. In just 4012 years we've grown to 7 billion. That's a 6.9 billion increase in just 4000 years. If we were to multiply the figures the population should be around 300+ billion people which is insane. We don't even find that much bones of people. Natural selection is not a driving force for evolution as it decreases genetic info. making the organism more specific & resulting in speciation. This is seen in dogs after being selectively bred.

*Forgot to mention, about 2 years ago an australopithecine was found known as australopithecus sediba ... it apparently has well preserved soft tissue which is unlikely to have survived 2 million years.
 
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KTskater

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FONT=Trebuchet MS]Australopithecines in my opinion were apes. I've researched them extensively & they don't seem to be on the way to human at all. Their pelvis is considered human-like & so it is claimed that they were full bipeds. This has numerous problems considering that most of their anatomy was essentially ape, including their ape head, upper body, fingers, toes etc. Their hip bones were flared like an ape making bipedality more difficult. Scans of the inner ear bones (for balance) of australopiths like africanus & robustus were almost identical to living apes showing that they were not habitually bipeds. My guess is that they were tree-dwellers who engaged in knuckle-walking (wrist-locking mechanism was found) & limited bipedality like living apes. Interestingly enough, apes like gibbons today walk on 2 legs all the time but no one is going to say they're evolving into humans.[/FONT]

That is not the opinion of most anthropologists. A. afarensis had many ape-like features, and probably still spent a good amount of time in the trees. However, the morphology of the foot shows that this species had lost the divergent toe seen in earlier species (like Ar. ramidus). This allows for "toeing off", which is how humans walk and is not seen in apes. Flared illia (a portion of the hip) are actually what we see in humans. It's part of what gives our pelves that bowl like shape which supports our organs. Apes don't have this, but instead have thick abdominal muscles because the weight of their organs is on their stomach because they are quadrupedal.
She also has a vulgus knee which is what we see in humans. This allows for the joint to support the weight of the entire body. Furthermore, we see the spine starting to form an S-shape, which is also needed to support upright walking. Finally, the position of the foramen magnum also supports bipedalism. These are not things seen in apes.

NOTE: Paranthropus robustus, boisei, and aethipopicus or are no longer considered austraopiths/australopithecines. They are in their own genus now.

FONT=Trebuchet MS]Homo habilis is really quite a confusing taxon because typically most of the bones are ape with few very similar to erectus. There's a homo habilis specimen known as Stw 53 & it's touted as an ancestor but lo & behold it locomoted like a baboon (as shown by it's inner ear anatomy). Homo habilis has very few substantial bones to it's name compared to the other names in the progression & I've never seen a good skeletal representation of it's anatomy post-cranially. Essentially, according to 2 paleoanthropologists, habilis an ape-like body size, ape body shape, ape locomotion, ape jaws & teeth, ape development & brain size. [/FONT]

Actually, H. hablis had a much larger brain than an ape. Chimps have an average brain size of 300cc-400cc, H. hablis sits around 600cc. And H. hablis has a decent collection of specimens, especially when compared to older taxons. Some of the most notable ones are: OH 62, KNM ER 1813, KNM ER 1805, SK 847, KNM ER 3733, OH 24, KNM ER 1470.
These specimens show the development of H. hablis from australopithecine characteristics in OH 62 to KNM ER 3733, which is now often grouped with H. erectus/ergaster because it shares many of same the traits.
It actually has the first appearance of a parabolic dental arcade, which is what we see in humans (apes have a U-shape). It also begins to lose the facial prognathism seen in previous species (i.e. flatter face). We also see the first manufactured tools with H. hablis.

FONT=Trebuchet MS]Homo erectus in my opinion seems pretty fully human. Anyone can see that by their anatomy, even some people today have such erectus features. They were also very smart because they built boats & had seafaring skills which is something I wish I could do.[/FONT]

H. erectus still doesn't have the cranial capacity of a human. On average it's behind H. sapiens by ~200cc. It also lacks defining human characteristics like a chin. It's skull is still too oblong, and it's brow ridges are far too robust for a human (we're a very gracile species). It also shows post-orbital constriction, which is not present in humans. It has a sagittal keel, which is not present in humans. It also displays facial prognathism not seen in humans. The cervical and thoracic vertebrae have a much smaller opening, indicating a smaller spinal cord (i.e. less nerve traffic= less intelligence). The femoral neck and head also have australopith/australopithecine characteristics and human characteristics. Essentially, it's hip joints are intermediate between humans and the australopiths/australopithecines.

I've heard briefly of the inner ear CT scans, but I haven't gotten a chance to read up on it yet. I believe it was a study done by Spoor, right?
 
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Calminian

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In other words what possible observation would led you to that adam and eve etc weren't created by special creation?
A similar thread was posted in society section and it's a good question to ask.

Historical evidence would be necessary, as a special act of God like this would not be scientifically discernible. One might also ask, what kind of evidence would cause me to deny the Resurrection.

The fallacy is, these beliefs are not rooted in scientific evidence, but historical testimonial evidence. You see Jesus even affirmed the first couple, and his testimony holds much weight with me.

Again, it's an issue of science vs. miracles (special acts of God). Trying to present scientific evidence to falsify a miracle is illogical (circular reasoning). If God did created the world supernaturally, I would expect scientific theories to be way off. At the same time I would expect plenty of historical testimonial evidence, like the corroborating accounts in the Bible. I would expect to see similar legends in all cultures of the world, depicting things like dragons, and a flood similar to that described in the bible.
 
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Calminian

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Adam and Eve were real historic people that lived 6,000 years ago. It does not matter if your TE, OEC, GAP, or YEC. Adam and Eve were still historical people that lived 6,000 years ago in the Garden of Eden. Between the Tigris and Euphrates river in what they now call the Euphrates River Valley.

Well you were doing good until that last part. No, Eden ws not in the Euphrates River Valley, anymore than Paris Texas is located in France.

Eden, Havilah, Cush, Asshur and the rest of antediluvia are no more. You'll notice from reading the record that nothing in the Eden geography described in Genesis 2 remotely resembles the geography of these rivers with matching names. In fact they rivers are converging instead of splitting as they once did. That right there is a clue the two have nothing in common.
 
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SkyWriting

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So other words none, then special creation belief is dogma. You can't replace something that can't be falsified with something that can and be hell-bent on carrying the dogma.


Hell-bent? Not a scientific concept.

No, "Special Creation" is a force that is outside of human powers.
As such, there is no way to re-create such events for testing purposes.
It exists outside of the realm of reproducible observation.:liturgy:
 
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