I have read Ellen say some odd things about the Catholic Church.....
...Given her total rejection of the Trinity doctrine I didn't put much faith in her teachings.
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you might as well be worshiping satan as far as k4c or EGW are concerned. in fact, i can dig you up an EGW quote where she says exactly that if you're interested.
Pythons; Is it not a teaching of SDA - that shortly prior to the "end of days"...
...The Catholic Church will initiate a rule of law which prevents people from the worship of Christ on Saturday?
Martin Luther had no such teaching that I'm aware of & it's not the question I asked...
...For your eschatology to be valid it would necessitate the Catholic Church admit it taught error in holding Mass on Saturday.
...Not to mention huge sections of the Orthodox Christian Faith which holds 'sabbath service' every Saturday.
I'm interested in knowing in what way do you feel the Catholic Church....
...Will convict itself of teaching heresy.
...Because that is what would be required for the Catholic Church to cease the worship of Christ as God on Saturday.
Can you provide an aswer for me?
Augsburg Confession said:Scripture has abrogated the Sabbath-day; for it teaches that, since the Gospel has been revealed, all the ceremonies of Moses can be omitted. And 60] yet, because it was necessary to appoint a certain day, that the people might know when they ought to come together, it appears that the Church designated the Lord's Day for this purpose; and this day seems to have been chosen all the more for this additional reason, that men might have an example of Christian liberty, and might know that the keeping neither of the Sabbath nor of any other day is necessary.
Therefore I constantly say that all our life and work must be ordered according to God's Word, if it is to be God-pleasing or holy. Where this is done, this commandment is in force and being fulfilled.
Official quote from The Catholic CatechismQuestion - Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann,C.S.S.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.
What was established at the Council of Laodicea in 364-AD regarding the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment?
Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364)"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, the Sabbath, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day (Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day if however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.---Canon 29, Council of Laodicea, 364 C.E.
Martin Luther was only the beginning of a long process with many steps.
"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us the day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan at Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the Apostle Paul wrote that he would oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God the Man of Sin, the son of perdition . . . What is the Temple of God? Is it stones and wood? Did not Paul say, The Temple of God is holy, which Temple ye are? To sit what is it but to reign, to teach and to judge. Who from the beginning of the church has dared to call himself master of the whole church but the Pope alone. None of the saints, none of the heretics ever uttered so horrible a word of pride." (Luther's Works, Vol. 2. p. 281).
"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments.... Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also."--MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist," pages 71, 72. Founder of the LUTHERAN Church
"The observance of the Lord's day [Sunday] is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the church."-- Augsburg Confession of Faith, quoted in "Catholic Sabbath Manual," Part 2, Chap. 1, Sec.10. LUTHERAN Church.
Just because someone holds a mass on Saturday does not mean they acknowledge the Sabbath. Here is what they say about the Sabbath.
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, the Sabbath, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day (Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day if however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.---Canon 29, Council of Laodicea, 364 C.E.
We are to worship God seven days a week but we can olny acknowledge and keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of which they do not do.
"Since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent. The custom of Sunday observance rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." (Roman Catholic scholar John A. O'Brien, The Faith of Millions, 1974, p.400,401.)
Official Statement of the Catholic Church Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday. Catholic Record, September 17, 1893.
Official Statement of the Catholic Church [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Sunday is our mark of authority, the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.[/FONT]
Official quote from The Catholic Catechism
Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann,C.S.S.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.
k4C said:What was established at the Council of Laodicea in 364-AD regarding the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment?
Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364)"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, the Sabbath, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day (Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day if however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.---Canon 29, Council of Laodicea, 364 C.E.
K4C said:Martin Luther was only the beginning of a long process with many steps.
K4C said:We are to worship God seven days a week but we can olny acknowledge and keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of which they do not do.
K4C said:"Since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent. The custom of Sunday observance rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." (Roman Catholic scholar John A. O'Brien, The Faith of Millions, 1974, p.400,401.)
K4C said:Official Statement of the Catholic Church Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday. Catholic Record, September 17, 1893.
Official Statement of the Catholic Church [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Sunday is our mark of authority, the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.[/FONT]
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Official quote FROM????????
...The Roman Catechism is "official" K4C so use that if you want to quote official Church teachings.
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The early Christians "rested" on the Sabbath and met for worship ( Christian Mass ) on Sunday without exception. This "local council' did not outlaw Saturday worship of Christ as God.
If you want to see exactly how the early Church operated on Saturday and Sunday simply show up at an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian Church and participate in their Saturday & Sunday weekly services. The SDA's need to update their apologetic material so that it reflects historic reality.
Yeah, I know - the SDA anti-Trinity pioneers all claimed that the biggest problem with the reformation was that it did not keep reforming and remove the teaching on the Trinity, the soul and infant baptism. Yeah, I get it.
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This has been discussed previously and we both know that SDA theology requires that Christ was killed at the Passover in 31 A.D......
...And that the event took place on the day prior to the 7th day Sabbath.
...Problem is that Passover in 31 A.D. was on a Wed.
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Not really given that Scripture records Christians meeting for assembly on SUNDAY for Holy Communion, collection of money AKA Church.
Of course it is - The New Testament of the Sacred Scripture was "according to the Canon of Faith" therefore the New Testament Scriptures were born out of the Tradition of the early Church.
Welcome!Hey I'm new here.
It would not be so bad if k4c would answer the Biblical points that are repeatedly presented to him.I see a lot of people ganging up on poor k4c.
You were doing okay until this line, which contradicts Moses when he recited the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:The law of God was from creation.
It would have been hard to dishonor parents when there was no such thing as a parent, don't you think? And, of course the evil actions you cite were sin, but they were not imputed without the law that defined transgressions. The only transgression Adam was guilty of was eating of the forbidden fruit, a violation of the commandment given to him in Genesis 2:17. Romans 5 comments on this:This has to be accepted as true unless we think it might have been OK to murder, lie, commit adultery, covet, blaspheme, worship idols, or have other gods, dishonour parents,, or steal in Eden.
There are any number of threads that document the origin of the sabbath, and differentiate it apart from God's rest that is documented in the Genesis account. Some of the evidence for the sabbath's origin found in Scripture:The only one that we may have questioned is the Sabbath and that is explicitly stated to have been established at creation.
Romans 7:6-7 states that we have been delivered from the law, and then quotes from the law "You shall not covet" to identify the body of law we have been delivered from. It is the covenant from Mount Sinai, known as the old covenant, given the proper noun "Ten Commandments" by Moses in Deuteronomy 4:13. "You shall not covet" quotes Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21, and is found nowhere else in the law.I doubt many would argue that minus the 4th commandment the law of God is a solid moral list to live by. Really the only one any has issue with is the Sabbath commandment. If it wasn't there probably all churches would be commandant keepers.
Please remember that you have not responded to my query concerning your departure from the sabbaths that Mary and the women with her observed, as shown in the quote you provided from Luke 23:56 a number of times. Remember too that the person who wrote the quote you presented above admitted his carnality and inability to abide by the law in the same epistle, Romans 7:14.Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Genesis 12 said:And there came a famine in the country; and Abram went down into Egypt, to sojourn there: for the famine was very grievous in the land.
And when he was near to enter into Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife: I know that thou art a beautiful woman:
And that when the Egyptians shall see thee, they will say: She is his wife: and they will kill me, and keep thee.
Say, therefore, I pray thee, that thou art my sister: that I may be well used for thee, and that my soul may live for thy sake.
And when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians saw the woman that she was very beautiful.
And the princes told Pharao, and praised her before him: and the woman was taken into the house of Pharao.
And they used Abram well for her sake. And he had sheep and oxen, and he asses, and menservants and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
But the Lord scourged Pharao and his house with most grievous stripes for Sarai, Abram's wife.
And Pharao called Abram, and said to him: What is this that thou hast done to me? Why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife.
For what cause didst thou say, she was thy sister, that I might take her to my wife? Now therefore, there is thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
And Pharao gave his men orders concerning Abram: and they led him away, and his wife, and all that he had
Thanks Victor. I look forward to an enlightening discussion.Welcome!
I think he has addressed many if not all, but the questions and answers tend to get fragmented and separated on a forum. Could you please list out the questions you feel have not been answered in point form and I'll have a go at them.It would not be so bad if k4c would answer the Biblical points that are repeatedly presented to him.
You were doing okay until this line, which contradicts Moses when he recited the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:
2 "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Moses testified the law mediated through him was unknown prior to his own generation.
Be careful not to view any one text as definitive of anything. One should never build doctrine on a single passage. Once a person thinks they fully understand one text you can later discover it means something completely different.It would have been hard to dishonor parents when there was no such thing as a parent, don't you think? And, of course the evil actions you cite were sin, but they were not imputed without the law that defined transgressions. The only transgression Adam was guilty of was eating of the forbidden fruit, a violation of the commandment given to him in Genesis 2:17. Romans 5 comments on this:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned----
13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
This passage clearly reveals that sin existed before the law did, and that death was the penalty of a transgression that doesn't even exist in the law mediated by Moses.
Are you suggesting God instituted the sabbath at creation and kept it to himself. Where does that come from? Was God really tired after creation that he had to rest or was he being an example to us? Would he put man to work on his first full day of existence when God Himself rested? Does that sound like the God we worship? On the contrary, God created man and I think they shared that first sabbath together walking in Eden. It would have been marvelous, and I can't wait till we can experience it for ourselves.There are any number of threads that document the origin of the sabbath, and differentiate it apart from God's rest that is documented in the Genesis account. Some of the evidence for the sabbath's origin found in Scripture:
* The Genesis account doesn't record a repetitive day observed by any human.
* Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath.
* Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath.
* Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
* Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
* Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.
Prase God it's true we are delivered from the law.Romans 7:6-7 states that we have been delivered from the law, and then quotes from the law "You shall not covet" to identify the body of law we have been delivered from. It is the covenant from Mount Sinai, known as the old covenant, given the proper noun "Ten Commandments" by Moses in Deuteronomy 4:13. "You shall not covet" quotes Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21, and is found nowhere else in the law.
And, claiming that churches would be commandment keepers (keeping the old covenant rather than the commandments of God found in the new covenant) would contradict God's disposition of universal disobedience of the law's recipients: "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all". His conclusion is final, has no exemptions, and is presented as a condition to extend His mercy to all, including those who had never received the covenant from Mount Sinai (the Gentiles).
I hope we can converse more, and there are some other members here who would like to welcome your input. Many of the topics you raised have been addressed in the past, as well as in the personal lives of the membership here. This forum is differentiated apart from the "traditional" SDA forum, as most of the contributors here have already concluded they don't agree with the entire fundamental beliefs published by the SDA church. I have personal experience with the beliefs of Adventists, and have an interest in dialogue with them from the perspective of one who has never been in the SDA church.
Prase God it's true we are delivered from the law.
You can't be suggesting that being delivered means that it is now OK to murder, lie, blaspheme, commit adultery?
Was there ever a time in history where any of these things were accepted in the eyes of God?
Lets not stop at Romans 7:7 if you read the entire chapter it's all explained.
If the law could have been cast away then Jesus need not have died.
Welcome back!Thanks Victor. I look forward to an enlightening discussion.
I think he (k4c) has addressed many if not all, but the questions and answers tend to get fragmented and separated on a forum. Could you please list out the questions you feel have not been answered in point form and I'll have a go at them.
Please remember my response addressed this:No contradiction actually. The Lord did make a covenant with Israel he made it with them 3 days before he wrote the tablets of stone.
And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
... if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me
... an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. .
So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD."
Exodus 19:3-7
The covenant was made. Moses then went back to the people and after three days they were brought before the mountain. Some time later perhaps a few more days, the timeline is not clear, the ten commandments were delivered.
Drawing out a timeline that is consistent with Scripture affirms that Moses was accurate in his statement that the covenant from Mount Sinai didn't exist before himself. The law mediated in his hands wasn't from creation.The law of God was from creation.
That covenant also included the book of the law, that Moses codified from instructions he received while on Mount Sinai.I'm not denying that the ten commandments were a part of the covenant with Israel.
I see nothing in Scripture that suggests the created reflects attributes of the Creator. Haven't you ever noticed that God never installed His attribute of forgiveness into the law He created? God forgives sin, but the law knows only atonement to reconcile transgressions.Quite to the contrary it is part of every covenant God has made including the new covenant; part of everything God does in fact. Part of our loving God is obeying him. The commandments reflect God's nature how could they be left out of anything having to do with Him. This is mentioned many times in both the new and old testaments. God wants us to turn away from sin and transgression of the law is sin.
It didn't contradict anything I suggested. Abraham was charged with a covenant of circumcision and packing to leave Ur of the Chaldees. Do you think these commandments have any applicability to your personal life? Of course not.That is why this verse, that contradicts what you suggest, is not a contradiction at all.
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 26:5
Spoken during the tenure of the first covenant (as Hebrews refers to the covenant mediated through Moses), and tenets of the first covenant were listed in Matthew 19:18-21. In response to the rich man turning away when asked to give up his belongings, this discourse took place"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 19:17
John recorded Revelation, and he also recorded the commandments of God:"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Revelation 12:17
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12
Had you continued in the context this verse appears in, you would have seen what the law established by the author was:Paul said very clearly:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31
To the contrary, God kept the law together as one package that was indivisible.God made clear the separation of the old covenant sacrificial law from that of the ten commandments.
Are you suggesting Christ's propitiation didn't fulfill the law as He promised He would? In the second part of your post you accepted our deliverance from the Ten Commandments as described in Romans 7:6-7, and here you contend He didn't. The stone you suggest is "permanent" is addressed in 2 Corinthians 3, and was anything but permanent.Moses wrote the sacrificial covenant written on parchment skin it was kept on the side of the arc of the covenant, thus betraying it's temporary nature. The ten commandments as we all know, written by God's hand on stone tablets, were kept inside the arc where the presence of God resided. Stone=permanent parchment=transitory. Did Jesus back this up? Absolutely he did?
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18
I take it you don't accept Romans 5:12-14's message that sin existed before the law did, and also that sin isn't imputed in the absence of the law. It is this imputation that eludes your attention, the reason that God delivered us from the law ordained in the first covenant: "because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).Be careful not to view any one text as definitive of anything. One should never build doctrine on a single passage.
False.Adam's sin was multifaceted. He had placed something before God, and transgressed the first commandment.
Not at all - as I provided evidence to support, there was no repetitive sabbath applicable to mankind in the creation account. That included how Exodus 20:11 is structured. Mark 2:27 shows us that the sabbath was "made for man", indicating it was not God's rest recorded in the Genesis account. The sabbath was a component of law, and shared its origin with the manna experience - within the lifetime of Moses, as he testified concerning all the law's origin.Are you suggesting God instituted the sabbath at creation and kept it to himself?
That is speculation in deference to the narrative. God called it His rest, that remained a promise those charged with the sabbath had yet to attain (Hebrews 4:1). Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2, showing again the origin of God's rest. That is the rest we have entered: "we who have believed do enter that rest", the reality that was attained by faith in Christ our Redeemer, and we have no use for the sabbath that was cast as a shadow of that reality (Colossians 2:16-17).The "My rest" mentioned in Hebrews 4 is on many levels.
This won't take long.Sorry had to break this in two because of length. I hope I didn't miss anything and I hope it's still readable.
Oh, my!Praise God it's true we are delivered from the law.
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If the law could have been cast away then Jesus need not have died.
There is no 'new' Covenant, there is no 'old' Covenant; there is only the Covenant, eternal and unchanging. Without the Covenant/10 Commandments (Deut.4:13) there can be no Kingdom of Heaven. Without a Kingdom of Heaven (Dan.2:44,45) God cannot do battle with the kingdom of the world. Without this battle and the Kingdom of Heaven defeating the kingdom of the world there can be no 7th Trumpet wherein the 'kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ' (Rev.11:15,19).
Saying that the Covenant has somehow changed between the Old Testament and the New Testament shows a distinct lack of understanding of the purpose and operation of the Covenant. God is the same yesterday, today and forever; and so is HIS Covenant.
What does this mean? How does this break down in day-to-day life? Are we delivered from all old covenant laws, or only some of them?
I can't speak for Victor, but I can confirm that the Holy Spirit does not convict me to commit adultery. However, I have heard that He has convicted some to kill. Even so, I faith that the Holy Spirit -- as God -- knows how to convict people according to the mind of God . . . . even in a world in which the old covenant law has been fulfilled.
Are you worried that -- without law -- people will sin? If so, certainly we should notice that -- even with law -- people sinned.
It's a good question. Also, did sin exist before the law was added? Since the law was added 430 years after Abraham, it would seem that sin did exist before the law was added.
Sounds like a great idea. What is the relationship between the law and death? Is this same idea picked up in 2 Corinthians 3? What is the ministry that brings death and what is the ministry that brings life?
If the law could not be fulfilled, then why did Jesus come?
BFA
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