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Has the prophesy of Christs return been fulfilled? Have the other prophetic events in revelation been fulfilled. How do you reconcile what you say this means in the light that there are many things yet to be fulfilled?
Jesus told us that He came to fulfill the law. In contrast, you seem to conclude that He must come twice before the law can be fulfilled. If your hypothesis is true, then I must conclude that none of the jots and tittles have passed and that I should:* Observe all of the feasts;Is that what you are doing?
* Offer animal sacrifices;
* Get circumcised;
* Wear tzitzit
* Etc.
BFA
So if "fulfil" has to have a meaning that means to "not destroy"
So where does that leave us? If all things are are not yet fulfilled and the law will not change before they are...either we still need to do the things of the old covenant (sacrifice animals etc.) or the 10 commandments are considered separate.
Later in the chapter Jesus mentions many of the 10 commandments so we know what law he's talking about, but makes no mention of the Mosaic laws.
We've reached a point where we're circling back over the same ground. That's not a pattern I'd like to continue. You know my perspective on this and the reasons why I've reached my conclusion. I understand that you've reached a different conclusion.
You wish to limit your options in a way that I cannot.There are many concepts that mean something other than "to destroy." For example, the concepts of "filled full" or "fully met" mean something other than "to destroy" and have their basis in the greek.
As we've already discussed at length, I cannot reach the latter conclusion because I've found much evidence of the comingling of laws and no evidence of the division of laws.
Not true. In verse 24, He discusses offerings made at the altar. In verse 25, He discusses dispute resolution. In verse 33, He discusses oaths. In verse 40, He discusses lawsuits. In the next chapter, He discusses fasting. In Chapter 7, He discusses passing judgment. These are all God-given concepts set out in the old covenant (i.e the covenant given by God, not Moses).
Further, Jesus not only taught old covenant concepts, but He also observed old covenant feasts. Here are a few examples among many:Feast of Booths (John 7)Should we do as He did?
Feast of Unleavened Bread (Matthew 26)
Passover (John 13)
BFA
Lets take this from the opposite angle then. What does it take to destroy a law?
Since I don't believe that any Biblical laws have been "destroyed," I honestly wouldn't know.
I do sense, however, that if we are going to base our current practices on that which Jesus did, then it makes sense that we would do all of the things that he did. Like the feast of booths, the feast of unleavend bread and the passover.
BFA
OK, let me say it this way. How do you destroy any law?
I really don't know the answer to this question. I am not familiar with the concept of destroying laws. Is there something specific you have in mind?
Back to my previous post, should we do as Jesus did?
BFA
Well burning a paper that a law is written on does not destroy the law. I could burn all the law books in my city and they would still arrest me for doing wrong.
A law exists beyond the written word.
The only essence of a law is its enforcement. Would you agree?
Yup. If a person was passionate about finding a way around the law so s/he can keep doing wrong, that person would have to go after the online records as well.
[Note: It isn't my passion to find a way around the law so I can keep doing wrong.]
God existed before the law was added. He continues to exist since the Seed came.
No, I really don't. We can learn many things by studying the laws of previous cultures and civilizations.
I take it that you're no longer interested in 2-way dialogue????
BFA
The ONLY way to destroy a law,any law, is to remove it`s enforcement. To destroy a law you have to make it null and void, the police will no longer enforce it, judges will no longer convict on it. When it is no longer enforced, it is no longer a law, it is destroyed.
Bear with me, I want to boil this down to a single thread of thought to make a singlular point.
I would assume that -- when you conclude that it is no longer incumbent upon you to offer animal sacrifices and to observe the feast of unleavened bread -- your conclusion isn't built upon a desire to destroy the law. Your thought process on the concept of "destroying the law" does not resonate with me because I -- like you -- have no interest in destroying the law.
In doing so, you have moved us away from 2-way dialogue and toward an approach that is solely 1-way. As a result, you seem to be attributing beliefs to me that aren't actually mine. Unless you're willing to resume 2-way dialogue, "bearing with you" is no longer something I'm willing to do. Please let me know how you'd like to proceed.
BFA
This is still two-way
but as I said I wanted to keep it on this single idea thread to clarify something. OK. So you do not agree with what I have said. How then , in your words, does one destroy a law? Remember I'm talking in general, not specifically God's law but any law. How do you destroy any law?
Truly, it is not.
We're going in circles. I've already answered all of the questions you've raised above. At this point, unless you'd like to begin to answer some of my questions, I'm done.
BFA
To what you were saying earlier:
I was not able to find anything that says specifically that says we are no longer to keep the feast days, so it could be you are correct that this is expected of us also. I will keep looking, if anyone finds or knows of it please post for our benefit.
I did ask for some leeway while I tried to clarify the central point. I'm sorry if this is not possible for you.
You have avoided answering my question directly.
If the only way to destroy a law is to invalidate it, and Christ said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Then he, in no way, invalidated the law, because to invalidate a law is to destroy it.
So to say that fulfill in this context means to, "pay off" the law so that it is no longer binding is a contradiction of the context of the sentence. If I break a law then serve my time, when I get out of jail I am not free to break the law again.
The Greek word used in this context of "fulfill" is "plerosai" (πληρῶσαιit has a parallel meanings to the English word "fulfilled" [accomplish, complete, fully carry, made complete, to perform fully,]
So if you say the law is not destroyed but we are no longer obligated to keep it, that is a contradiction.
You won't find it because it does not exist. The Old Testament is full of law that God gave to Israelites. Either one jot or tittle of these laws has passed and it has been fulfilled or no jots or tittles have passed and none of it has been fulfilled. If this is the case, then we would not only need to observe feast days but also animal sacrifices and circumcision.
BTW, is the above response an answer to my question where I asked:
Jesus not only taught old covenant concepts, but He also observed old covenant feasts. Here are a few examples among many:Feast of Booths (John 7)Should we do as He did?
Feast of Unleavened Bread (Matthew 26)
Passover (John 13)
We are going over the same ground again and again. I'm sure both us have better ways to use our time.
To my knowledge, I have answered each and every one of your questions.
The phrase "invalidate" is very foreign to Scripture and to my understanding. Clearly, the SDA denomination teaches that we no longer need to offer animal sacrifices. Is that invalidation or fulfillment?
In this case, you have not illustrated the fulfillment of law. Rather, you have illustrated the completion of punishment. In your scenario, no law has been fulfilled.
Well said. Jesus Christ completed it. He performed it fully.
The only contradiction that I can find results from believing and teaching that the law is fulfilled but I must still try and keep it.
BFA
Well you have still not answered what it takes to destroy a law.
As for a, 'jot or tittle in nowise passing from the law till heaven and earth are no more', I believe what Jesus said. So if Jesus is telling the truth, there is a separation and we need keep the ten commandments, or there is no separation and we need to keep it all. By what he said those are the only two options.
By what you say we don't have to keep any of it, none of the law is any longer binding (do away with/destroyed), is a contradiction to what Jesus says in these passages.
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