What others say about us and our beliefs

[theFijian]

Don't know if this has been brought up before but I found this thread while browsing in the Pentecostal Subforum 'Word of Faith'. Needless to say, misconceptions abound but I find it interesting to read what people think we believe.

grace and peace

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Don't know if this has been brought up before but I found this thread while browsing in the Pentecostal Subforum 'Word of Faith'. Needless to say, misconceptions abound but I find it interesting to read what people think we believe.

grace and peace

It truely is amazing how often people will continue to attack their own caricatures of Calvinism without ever demonstrating an understanding of what our real position is. I just finished reading Debating Calvinism, a debate between Calvinist James White and the opposing view presented by Dave Hunt. Now, Hunt wrote an excellent book describing the falsehoods of the Word of Faith movement and accurate in his criticisms of it (I know because I was in it for a while), so I started out with respect for arguments given by Hunt. 363 pages into Debating Calvinism, after reading Hunt make case after case against a caricature and White try to straighten out the misconceptions,the opening words to Hunt's chapter 'Salvation Offered To All' are

Christ commands, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). Calvinism voids that mandate by teaching that the nonelect cannot believe the gospel and that the elect are regenerated without it.

At that point, I threw the book down and walked away from it for a few days. White has been trying to explain the Calvinist, or Reformed, view to Hunt for years, and Hunt still just doesn't get it. There are lotsa people out there like that.

 

[Jon_]

White has been trying to explain the Calvinist, or Reformed, view to Hunt for years, and Hunt still just doesn't get it. There are lotsa people out there like that.

Hunt doesn't want to get it. He hates Calvinism and will defame and deceive people to no end to prevent people from accepting it. To that end, he is a liar and a deceiver, using whatever means he must to accomplish his end, even after being corrected and reproved countless times.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JJB]

Another thing I've noticed is that we are told we twist words. Rather, we use basic grammar rules.

It's the definitions of words such as "all" is where I see word twisting and a roadblock to grammar. That's why we teach kids grammar -- to understand God's word.

 

[Jon_]

Another thing I've noticed is that we are told we twist words. Rather, we use basic grammar rules.

It's the definitions of words such as "all" is where I see word twisting and a roadblock to grammar. That's why we teach kids grammar -- to understand God's word.

Arminians make the critical error of attributing all things universally to every instance of "all" in the New Testament. They deny the clear antecedent subjects that clarify who pertains to the all (such as all elect in 2 Pt. 3:9). But no, we're told that it is impious and rationalistic to adhere to the rules of grammar and valid inference. We have to read the text like they do, otherwise, we're reading it wrong.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

There was a time, not too long ago, when I would desperately search through any ammunition I could find against Calvinism. I used to say a lot of things similar to the folks who misrepresent Calvinism, as these folks do. I was one of those who "just didn't want to get it." But despite all my resistance, I eventually realized that this is indeed the biblical teaching. There is yet hope for these folks.

 

[edie19]

Don't know if this has been brought up before but I found this thread while browsing in the Pentecostal Subforum 'Word of Faith'. Needless to say, misconceptions abound but I find it interesting to read what people think we believe.

grace and peace

Thanks for sharing the thread.

Is "wow" sufficient comment. I'm actually at a loss for words and that doesn't happen very often.

edie

 

[oworm]

Having read through the whole thread it's apparent(as is usuall in these anti reformed threads) that those opposed to the doctrines of grace have never really taken the time to form any kind of informed,consistent and coherent argument against reformed doctrine.Of course we all know if they did then they would be undeniably confronted with the truth of Holy Scripture. I find it amusing that they would want to hide in their own denominational section and discuss such things among themselves with no threat of a rebuttal or refutation from a Reformed Christian,given that we cannot debate in a fellowship forum. Now that really annoys and frustrates me sometimes

 

[GrinningDwarf]

But despite all my resistance, I eventually realized that this is indeed the biblical teaching. There is yet hope for these folks.

AMEN!!

 

[JJB]

There was a time, not too long ago, when I would desperately search through any ammunition I could find against Calvinism. I used to say a lot of things similar to the folks who misrepresent Calvinism, as these folks do. I was one of those who "just didn't want to get it." But despite all my resistance, I eventually realized that this is indeed the biblical teaching. There is yet hope for these folks.

I've recently been suggesting that if they want to be missionaries to Reformed faith, they better read some of the writings. Just like a missionary to the people in Muslim countries, you gotta learn what you're up against first. Then I pray that their eyes would be opened if they actually take my challenge and do some reading.

 

[StAnselm]

On the other hand, I'm sure we would have quite a few mis-conceptions about the "Word of Faith" people.

 

[Croooz]

I was about to respond to this section quoted below with just some questions. I decided against it and instead chose to post it here.

My question is, how could Christ’s accomplishment at Calvary be greater than Satan's accomplishment in Eden if what Satan caused resulted in unlimited death and what Jesus did only resulted in a “limited atonement”?

How many were chosen to be G-d's elect in the OT?
Did not G-d limit who could be atoned for in the OT or was there unlimited atonement for all?
Why is it so easy to believe that there was limited atonement in the OT yet not so in the NT?
Or do you believe that everyone was welcome in the OT?
Have people had a free will to choose G-d vs satan even before Christ?

 

[JJB]

I was about to respond to this section quoted below with just some questions. I decided against it and instead chose to post it here.

How many were chosen to be G-d's elect in the OT?
Did not G-d limit who could be atoned for in the OT or was there unlimited atonement for all?
Why is it so easy to believe that there was limited atonement in the OT yet not so in the NT?
Or do you believe that everyone was welcome in the OT?
Have people had a free will to choose G-d vs satan even before Christ?

That's right. On Yom Kippur the high priest entered the Holy of Holies to atone for the sins of Israel, not the whole world!

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

That's a good point. Arminians like to say that all of the gentile world was lost before Christ, but that He came that all have an equal chance at taking up the offer. The trouble is, there are examples of gentiles in the OT who came to faith, including examples later than Abraham. Ours is a consistant God. There have been some changes from BC to AD, but those are fundamentally related to which direction you look. Israel looked ahead to the messiah, Spiritual Israel looks back to the messiah.

So you could rightly conclude that all who have ever been saved have been saved by grace, through faith, in the messiah, to the glory of God. Ours is a consistant message. Theirs is not. The burden of proof is on the Arminian.

 

[Erinwilcox]

True.

I think it comes down to a misunderstanding of the Soverrinty of God. There are three main things that because they don't understand them, they have gotten into this false doctrine:
1. Satan is the God of this world
2. God has given us free will
3. .God is bound by His Word because He would cease to exist if He was to break a covenant or lie

Help me to understand this quote. Is his grammer wrong? I think that he's saying that because we don't understand these three things we got into false doctrine. But, the way that it is written, it seems to say that "this false doctrine" is what comes after the colon. Now, where in the Bible to you get that "Satan is the God of this world?" And what Calvinist would ever disagree with

God is bound by His Word because He would cease to exist if He was to break a covenant or lie

? We understand that and that is partly WHY we are Calvinists!

On a more humorouse note, what is the "soverrinty of God?" That is no typo. And, more seriously, who gives God more sovereignty and more power and more glory (by ascribing man's salvation to Him) than the Calvinist?

 

[edie19]

And, more seriously, who gives God more sovereignty and more power and more glory (by ascribing man's salvation to Him) than the Calvinist?

Amen to that - along with the Solas, the one thing every Reformed person I know firmly believes that God is truly sovereign over all things.

 

[seekingpurity047]

Help me to understand this quote. Is his grammer wrong? I think that he's saying that because we don't understand these three things we got into false doctrine. But, the way that it is written, it seems to say that "this false doctrine" is what comes after the colon. Now, where in the Bible to you get that "Satan is the God of this world?" And what Calvinist would ever disagree with ? We understand that and that is partly WHY we are Calvinists!

On a more humorouse note, what is the "soverrinty of God?" That is no typo. And, more seriously, who gives God more sovereignty and more power and more glory (by ascribing man's salvation to Him) than the Calvinist?

I think the notion of Satan being the God of this world is a very Word of Faith movement heretical saying. I had a class on the Word of Faith movement in my Contemporary Doctrinal Issues class at my church, and man... are those doctrines ever heretical! Yes.. they say that Satan is the God of this world because Eve listened to satan when she picked the fruit from the tree and ate it. That's when God lost his sovereignty and power, yadyadyada. All heresy, all a load of.... jibberish!

False interpretation of the bible to make people give benny hinn and kenneth copeland money, that's all.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[edie19]

I think the notion of Satan being the God of this world is a very Word of Faith movement heretical saying. I had a class on the Word of Faith movement in my Contemporary Doctrinal Issues class at my church, and man... are those doctrines ever heretical! Yes.. they say that Satan is the God of this world because Eve listened to satan when she picked the fruit from the tree and ate it. That's when God lost his sovereignty and power, yadyadyada. All heresy, all a load of.... jibberish!

False interpretation of the bible to make people give benny hinn and kenneth copeland money, that's all.

To the glory of God,

Randy

I admit to knowing absolutely nothing about the word of faith movement - never, ever watch benny hinn or kenneth copeland. But I want to be clear - they truly believe that God lost His sovereignty and power? They're giving Satan equal strength and ability???

edie

 

[Croooz]

I was completely clueless of the WOF. I googled and out came this; http://www.gospeloutreach.net/whatwordfaith.html

The WF teacher who claimed their were 9 G-d's was Benny Hinn. I had the realplayer file where he had said that. His claim was that there were 3 within each G-d making it a triune trinity. Each G-d was the other 2 so there were duplicates. I heard this back when I was first began to sense G-d's call on my life and was studying feverishly. It was this teaching which actually stopped me cold in my tracks and pushed me away from anyone's teachings of the Bible. There was no basis for this flagrantly lie, except some type of 2+2=8 logic.

I actually woke up this morning thinking about some of things posted on the other thread. Ignoring the "Reformed" plant who merely served to give an "example" of what they believe Calvinists believe, I marvel at the inaccuracies in their logic. Either I'm blind, they are, or we both are because the scriptures they used to prove their point were actually proving ours! Of course not the exact verse but ever since my conversion I've begun to read the verses above and below to make sure what's being interpreted to support any position is actually what the Bible is saying.

I do not take exception to the claim that Reformed theology seems to attract the intellectually minded or however they said it.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;fools despise wisdom and instruction.
My wife is struggling because she points to the fact that all we need is the Bible and G-d will teach us from there. I explain that this would be great if it happened in a vacuum but it does not. There will always be some outside or inside influences which will guide the G-d talking to you.

The posts I read did not attempt to understand anything. What I did note is that every doctrine should have, as a minimum requirement, a course on logic & reason or critical thinking. There were so many strawmen, red herrings, slippery slopes, and just plain elementary "because my pastor says so" logic that it isn't worth presenting a case.

I apologize for my ramblings but how can you defend your doctrine when the leaders of your doctrince are spewing lies and leaving everyone up to their own god's interpretation of the Bible. This is why the RC church didn't want the Bible in just anyones hands.

 

[McWilliams]

So much false interpretation, so many false teachers leading others astray! Pays to be discerning about what we take into our minds! This site shares details of such with scriptures to substantiate their charges about false teachers!


http://www.myfortress.org/FALSETEACHERS.html