What or Who Is Satan?

tanzel said:

You are going to have a hard time with people, I'm not going there
with you, believe what you want.

peace in jesus name

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That's just it--they are believing what THEY WANT! There is NO SCRIPTURE to back up what they think.

tanzel said:

You are going to have a hard time with people, I'm not going there
with you, believe what you want.

peace in jesus name

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Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is

You are right most christians are so carnal and shallow; but that is what makes it so awesome and challenging.

Sorry Jesus is not a blood thirsty monster worst then Hitler and Stalin; He is a savior, a savior of all men.

Floatingaxe said:

That's just it--they are believing what THEY WANT! There is NO SCRIPTURE to back up what they think.

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You sure do not read the Bible.....

Saviour of all

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

Here is a small list of scriptures that state Jesus Christ is the saviour of all and added a small comment after them.
.

For those that believe in eternal torment or annihilation, if you do not want to bother reading the whole thread I would encourage you to read the LAST scripture given as it is ABSULTLY IRREFUTABLE proof that Jesus Christ is the saviour of all, unless of course you actually believe the WORD of God is void.

Saviour of all

1 Timothy 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. ​

It is Gods will for all men to be saved, yet many of Gods own people stand up and say even though it is Gods will that all be saved He cannot perform it. I have asked why and the standard answer is because of man unbelief. What! shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid. ​

1 Timothy 4:10
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. ​

Jesus Christ the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. Can it be stated any plainer. ​

Hebrews 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. ​

1 Timothy 2:6
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. ​

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. ​

Do you believe Johns testimony about Jesus Christ? Or do you believe the testimony of today’s religion? Did He take away the sin of the world or not? Just who do you believe? ​

​

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Draw literally means drag all men unto me, some will come kicking and screaming, but come they will. I speak here of myself.

Colossians 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

All things are created by Him and for Him. So how can any be lost? Do you honestly believe He created some to be eternally tormented or annihilated? If so then how can they be said to be created FOR Him?

Colossians 1:20
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The blood of Jesus Christ was not cheap, we were all bought with a price we are no longer our own but are HIS.

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Can you not see that this is the great commission? That we are to tell the whole world that they have been reconciled to God in Christ.


Romans 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Was the offence of Adam greater in scope then the free gift of Jesus Christ? Not according to scripture, yet God own people state otherwise when they proclaim not all men are justified by the life of Christ. Many have argued the point that all does not mean all here, while if that is the case then not all men are in sin because of Adam. And if that is the case then they have no need of Jesus Christ. ALL radically means ALL here.


Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The restitution of all things is not a new age doctrine, this has been proclaimed by God Himself though the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began.


Genesis 22:18
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Galatians 3:8
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Philippians 2:9-11
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Can scripture make it any plainer then that?
The word bow here is the Greek word kampto meaning to bend the knee in honour and religious veneration.
The word confess here is the Greek word exomologeo meaning to acknowledge openly and joyfully to celebrate in praise of ones honour


Psalm 86:9
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Why will all nations whom God has made come and worship Him?

1 Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Because as all in Adam died even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is now the second time Paul speaks of all dying in Adam and all being made alive in Christ. The first time is found in Romans chapter 5. Which is a great chapter proclaiming the sufficiency of the cross of our LORD. It is a chapter that needs to be studied in great depth but even a quick scan will reveal that the free gift far exceeds the offence.

Romans 14:9
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Not only the Lord of the living but that of the dead also. Jesus Christ simply put is Lord of all.

Acts 10:36
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

Psalm 22:27-28
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalm 72:11
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 72:17
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

ALL the ENDS of the world shall turn unto the Lord.


Psalm 145:9-10
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psalm 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Gods mercy endures for ever over ALL HIS WORKS.

Isaiah 25:8
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Cannot we see here that DEATH is swallowed up in VICTORY? Too many of Gods own people still give DEATH victory over what Jesus Christ has done. If death like so many believe is forever where oh where is the victory? Do not the scriptures tell us there will be no more death? How can this be if death is forever?


Isaiah 55:10-11
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I really like this one. The WORD did come out from God, made in the likeness of flesh for the salvation of the whole world. And as the WORD was sent forth it will not return void but shall accomplish EVERYTHING that it was sent to do. Why do so many still believe His WORD came in vain? The salvation of the whole world was His purpose in coming so what can we say if He does not fulfill His purpose? There is only one conclusion, His WORD returned void. Believe what you will, I believe His WORD will do exactly what He came to do. Like it or not brothers and sisters Gods WORD Jesus Christ will fulfill to the fullest exactly what He came to do, THE SALVATION OF ALL.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

The whole thing reminds me of the verse which says, "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." When? When every heart is made willing! There is no connotation or undertone here of God forcing these to just mouth words. Instead there is the implication that it is done in a heartfelt, even worshipful attitude. They have been made willing. Many eternalists like to say that this verse simply means that God will force these knees to bow and these tongues to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Now these are the same people who say that because man has a "free will" God will not force him to accept Jesus Christ. But here they have God forcing men to worship Him . . . to the glory of God? "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high one that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited" --Isaiah 24:21,22.

Acts 15:16​

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.​

Acts 15: 16-17 (NAS) ​

'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,​

AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'​

Acts 15: 16 (HCSB) ​

After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again, 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord—even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,says the Lord who does these things,18 which have been known from long ago.​

Acts 15 16 (NIRV) ​

" 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. ​

I will rebuild what was destroyed. I will make it what it used to be. 17 Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.'​

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

example NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)



There is so much more on this subject; using all the different examples and Temples/Tabernacles that point to the reality of God’s SpiritualChurch today.

Benoni said:

You sure do not read the Bible.....

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Of course I read it, and the thing is---by the Holy Spirit, I UNDERSTAND what God says.

There is so much more on this subject; using all the different examples and Temples/Tabernacles that point to the reality of God’s SpiritualChurch today.

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Can you get back on topic, please? Thanks...

Floatingaxe said:

Of course I read it, and the thing is---by the Holy Spirit, I UNDERSTAND what God says.




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Your the one who said there were no scriptures to back up what I think. Well is that true??????????

So you are trying to tell me that the Holy Spirit has revealed to you: That God does not have the will to save all, but has the will to torture billions and billions of is creation foeever and ever and ever.

That God is going to torture billion and billions of people for ever and ever with no mercy?

That Jesus blood did not do a good enough job on the cross and that the sin of Adam is more powerful then the blood of Jesus?

Of Course you are totally ignoring the multiple scriptures I just posted because you doctrine of damnations are far more important to you. Talking about damnation here is a verse for people who believe like you.

2 Peter 2:1

Strong’s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

This is what you are preaching not me; notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations to billions, total annihilation and destruction , perish etc.

Your whole doctrine centers on damnations, eternal torture, and the pagan word hell; you are the one preaching heresies of damnation; not me.

No prove your point using the Bible instead of your bias opinion.

Floatingaxe said:

Can you get back on topic, please? Thanks...

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no

The point you're trying to illustrate here is that God will bring those who currently are subject to His wrath into salvation automatically. The reason people will perish, is because God doesn't force people to love Him. That isn't love. Yes, it is God's will that all should be saved, but at the same time, forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you post something in that other thread on homosexuality about how some are prepared for His grace and others prepared for wrath? Do you think it's just a slap on the wrist or something? Trespass of God's grace and unrepentance will indeed bring everlasting torment, because God's wrath is still against those who have not come. Just because the Lord is loving, does not mean He isn't a just judge in what He will do. Sin must be punished if it is not atoned for, and that is what the lake of fire is.

Benoni said:

Your the one who said there were no scriptures to back up what I think. Well is that true??????????

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Yes it is true. You cannot back up that the LOF is temporary; that it is refining; that it is only symbolic.

You cannot respond to the fact that God says He is angry at evildoers and will pour out His wrath on the wicked; that He is jealous; that He is just to do as He says.

So you are trying to tell me that the Holy Spirit has revealed to you: That God does not have the will to save all, but has the will to torture billions and billions of is creation foeever and ever and ever.

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God certainly has the sovereign will and desire to save all, but He has not the soivereign will that he gave to man. He turned that thing over to us, so we must choose to love Him back on our own volition.

God has no choice but to abide by His own Word precisely becasue he is Sovereign and He is God and no lie is in Him. so, choose ye this day whom you will serve, or face His wrath against your sin. Count on Him to fulfill His Word. I thank my God that He isn't the milquetoast you represent Him as.

That God is going to torture billion and billions of people for ever and ever with no mercy?

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He says it, I believe Him. Shouldn't I? Or should I believe you?

That Jesus blood did not do a good enough job on the cross and that the sin of Adam is more powerful then the blood of Jesus?

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Jesus' blood bought us all our redemption, but unless you give Him your life, NO TICKEE, NO WASHEE!

Of Course you are totally ignoring the multiple scriptures I just posted because you doctrine of damnations are far more important to you. Talking about damnation here is a verse for people who believe like you.

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All those Scriptures I have read a thousand times and none of them represent the truth as God speaks it regarding His plan for mankind. You oick and choose scriptures out of context. I have gotten to the point where I just do not read your scriptures at all.

Come to Christ, be saved from the LOF. Reject Jesus and suffer the second death.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

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The damnable heresy is Universalism. Neglescting God's full character in order to embrace only the Love God is not Godly, for He is not that one-dimensional cartoon you paint Him as.

Your whole doctrine centers on damnations, eternal torture, and the pagan word hell; you are the one preaching heresies of damnation; not me.

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Not at all! It is only in juxtaposition with your heresy that God is a liar and will go back on His Word and that He doesn't suffer wrath at people's wickedness, and that Jesus died for nothing because people don't need the blood, that you see only the damnation. It is the damnation that God speaks of copiously that you have neglected. No wonder it seems that way to you!

We don't, and you shouldn't neglect the entire character of God in order to embrace His love gift of Jesus the Son. We love God because he first loved us and provided a way out of suffering His wrath. We know He is fearsome, yet He loves us with an everlasting love. He is a balanced God, and not a piecemeal God you think you know.





1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.


Now this thread needs to return to topic. It has been obviously hijacked. Universalism should be discussed in Unorthodox Theology, IMO. There are rules we must follow.

I just want to touch on a point here, I won't be going to any lexicons, I believe God's scriptures are enough. You raised the point of people being made willing to bow to God, yet then you raise the question of why would people be bowing to the Glory of God. Let's take a look into this matter quickly.

Matthew 8:28-34 NIV

28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[d] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" 30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
32He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.




These demons are subject to God's command, yet they do not revere Him, they know who He is, but they have not love for Him. So next the question will be raised of what does the subjugation of demons have to do with man? Surely man and angels are not the same. This is true, yet, unrepentant man shares something in common with the fallen angel...


Matthew 25:41-43 NIV


41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'


So, we see a common factor: there is an eternal fate for those who deny God, to a place prepared for the devil and his angels. What does unrepentant man, and the enemy, that is satan and his ilk, have in common? Simple. Those who are not of Christ are of the devil. Those who reject the message of the cross are in league with he who tempted Eve in the garden, who this entire thread is about quite frankly.



John 8:42-47 NIV



42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."


People who were around Christ when He walked this Earth the first time were not responding to the plain truth. They denied miracles performed in front of them, decrying that the Lord was not in fact God, but was possessed, so they denied Christ. So why is it so far beyond your understanding to see that even in the time of being in His direct presence, seeing His works with their own eyes, yet still denying Him, that it would be impossible for someone to deny Him now?


So much talk of different definitions, or possible other meanings. How a translator "unfortunately made the decision to include such a definition". Tell me something. Could it not be attributed to a translation error, but rather, a common underlying theme? In Isaiah there is mention of everlasting burning. In Matthew there is speak by Christ of being thrown into hell, yet you decry it as a pagan translation and word and concept... it doesn't sound to me like someone is discovering truth, but rather digging for as many excuses as they can to deny it. Could just be what I see though. Yet, we see the theme of everlasting fire, eternal torment, the smoke of their torment rising up forever and ever, in multiple places. Rather consistent. Rather than a continual translation error, I believe it to be an underlying concept, a warning to the unfaithful. If you deny Christ, you will not be spared your punishment.

Jude 1:7 NIV

7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.


And before you start railing on me about how Christ is the savior of all men, yes, He is indeed the savior for all the world, but not all the world will accept Him. It's what makes it so very tragic really. They have the option to accept God's grace and be spared that fate. The Heavens rejoice when a sinner repents, this is indeed true. But the Lord will not force someone to come onto Him in grace, and just because we will be subject to His glory does not mean all will be saved. The angels see God in all His splendor, they are objects of His glory. Yet, even then, the devil fell, even then a third of the angels were cast down for their rebellion. So subjection to the glory of God does not save: nay, it is grace that comes from faith. And if one does not have faith, they will not be saved. Surely you are familiar with gehenna. The garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. Was gehenna used to purify anything? If you send something to an incinerator, do you expect it to return in a purified state, or as ashes? I'm not advocating anihilationism here. If it says everlasting, it means everlasting. But that's the principle you're suggesting. That refuse sent away to a garbage heap will return purified like silver in a forge, yet it does not work that way nor did it ever.
If you send garbage to a dump for a week, and then return to take it back, it is not cleaner, it is filthier, taking on the stench and uncleanliness of that around it. It's detestability has increased because of this. So why then do you claim that those turned away from the Lord to the lake of fire will be returned as gold purified in a forge, if it is then presented as a burning garbage dump?

SoundCard said:

. Surely you are familiar with gehenna. The garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. Was gehenna used to purify anything? If you send something to an incinerator, do you expect it to return in a purified state, or as ashes? I'm not advocating anihilationism here. If it says everlasting, it means everlasting. But that's the principle you're suggesting. That refuse sent away to a garbage heap will return purified like silver in a forge, yet it does not work that way nor did it ever.
If you send garbage to a dump for a week, and then return to take it back, it is not cleaner, it is filthier, taking on the stench and uncleanliness of that around it. It's detestability has increased because of this. So why then do you claim that those turned away from the Lord to the lake of fire will be returned as gold purified in a forge, if it is then presented as a burning garbage dump?

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Most excellent point! Reps to you!

SoundCard said:

The point you're trying to illustrate here is that God will bring those who currently are subject to His wrath into salvation automatically. The reason people will perish, is because God doesn't force people to love Him. That isn't love. Yes, it is God's will that all should be saved, but at the same time, forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you post something in that other thread on homosexuality about how some are prepared for His grace and others prepared for wrath? Do you think it's just a slap on the wrist or something? Trespass of God's grace and unrepentance will indeed bring everlasting torment, because God's wrath is still against those who have not come. Just because the Lord is loving, does not mean He isn't a just judge in what He will do. Sin must be punished if it is not atoned for, and that is what the lake of fire is.

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No. Sorry I can only type short phases to answer your question for now, but we can discuss what any of these phases in depth using scripture if you like.

God’s Judgment is just.

God does force salvation; let’s believe God’s Word instead of tradition. Man has no freewill or choice for salvation, sounds pretty unjust for God to punish man eternally if man has no choice?

Why does the punishment have to be eternal (Latin).

Why would God punish eternally (Latin) sinful man seeing it was God will man fell?


What is the second death (death to death)d

The word perish in John 3:16 in all case I know of was added by the translator (look it up). "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.


Yes God will punish (prune/chastise) the wicked as I pointed; but out earlier for an age (Greek) not the eternal (Latin). Yes that is what the Lake of Devine Purging is all about; I will also add it is for many believers (those who did not overcome) . As I said earlier the Book of Revelation is not literal (still waiting for chapter and verse to show I am wrong) seeing Revelation is not literal as well as the multiple scriptures that declare the salvation for all. Revelation is also the most spiritual book in the Bible for John was in spirit on the Lords day.

Overcomer

In His great victory over the power of Satan He was a sign that pointed unerringly to another company of overcoming sons. In all the churches of Revelation there were two classes of people — those who were overcomers and those who were not. It is to the overcomers that the glorious promises are given, for they follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, have partaken of His mind and of His will, and thus are equipped to reign in His kingdom.
Rev. 2:7. "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death

Thus to them it is said: "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev. 2:7. "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev. 2:11. "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev. 2:17. "He that overcometh and keepeth My works to the end, to him will I give/wnw over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessel of the potter shall they be broken to shivers even as I received of My Father, and I will give him the morning star." Rev. 2:26-28. "He that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name." Rev. 3:12, 13. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne even as I overcame and am set down with My Father in His throne." Rev. 3:21. "He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

What I have learned about much of these things....
How was Adam and Eve damned from eternal life and brought to knowing death and sorrow? Satan didnt force them to eat the forbidden fruit...he fed them temptaion until they gave in. I investigate exorcisms as well. A possesed woman, while in tranced by the devils was asked, how do you communicate, how do you make this woman feel so horriable (suicidal), It responded "she hears my words, the power of suggestion is a powerful tool and you preacher are here to help, but its to late, I have planted in her that she is nothing."
Ever watch the cartoons with the little angel and devil on their shoulders telling them to do the right and wrong thing?
This is how most demons work. They simply get in your mind, tempt you, tell you bad things about yourself, All the while your unaware its a demon doing nasty things in your mind. God is there as well, reminding you not to belive things.

Example...this is neat.
The devils began telling me things I started to slip into depression, but then realized this was the work of the devils. So I rebuked them and laughed at their failure. guess what they did!! They left me, went into the other room and attacked my g/f. She came into the room raging angry at me, yelling about things I had done in the past. It of course made me feel bad at first, then realized the verse in the bible explaining that when you rebuke devils, theyll leave and find someone else. So I told her to relaz and explained that I had just rebuked those devils.
See the devils knew they could bother me. but they knew they could get to me by using my g/f.
She later apologized....not her fault of course.
Theres evil everywhere. And as age old and skilled as they are in their evil works, many of them drive ppl to know god.
lol
They failed to kill me. The first time I realized i had demons was when I was living a very bad life. I had my rifle under my chin, and within my head, I heard it screaming with anger " PULL THE TRIGGER!!! PULL THE F*****G TRIGGER!"
At that moment, my religeous cousin called from out of state. He never calls. Ever. Gods plan. I put the rifle down and talked to him and he explained the whole rebuking thing.

I lived a life of sin, because my devils were crafty. The sins seemed harmless.
My sins were hidden behind a cloak of "FUN".
And it nearly caused me to take my own life. My actions then hurt many ppl.
The devils know how to cause pain that spreads to many. All steming from just me.

They are evil. They hate us. They love to see us suffer. they are very real. And gods power silences them.
Always trust in our god. Forever and ever.

Floatingaxe said:

Yes it is true. You cannot back up that the LOF is temporary; that it is refining; that it is only symbolic.

You cannot respond to the fact that God says He is angry at evildoers and will pour out His wrath on the wicked; that He is jealous; that He is just to do as He says.

God certainly has the sovereign will and desire to save all, but He has not the soivereign will that he gave to man. He turned that thing over to us, so we must choose to love Him back on our own volition.

God has no choice but to abide by His own Word precisely becasue he is Sovereign and He is God and no lie is in Him. so, choose ye this day whom you will serve, or face His wrath against your sin. Count on Him to fulfill His Word. I thank my God that He isn't the milquetoast you represent Him as.

He says it, I believe Him. Shouldn't I? Or should I believe you?


Jesus' blood bought us all our redemption, but unless you give Him your life, NO TICKEE, NO WASHEE!


All those Scriptures I have read a thousand times and none of them represent the truth as God speaks it regarding His plan for mankind. You oick and choose scriptures out of context. I have gotten to the point where I just do not read your scriptures at all.

Come to Christ, be saved from the LOF. Reject Jesus and suffer the second death.



The damnable heresy is Universalism. Neglescting God's full character in order to embrace only the Love God is not Godly, for He is not that one-dimensional cartoon you paint Him as.


Not at all! It is only in juxtaposition with your heresy that God is a liar and will go back on His Word and that He doesn't suffer wrath at people's wickedness, and that Jesus died for nothing because people don't need the blood, that you see only the damnation. It is the damnation that God speaks of copiously that you have neglected. No wonder it seems that way to you!

We don't, and you shouldn't neglect the entire character of God in order to embrace His love gift of Jesus the Son. We love God because he first loved us and provided a way out of suffering His wrath. We know He is fearsome, yet He loves us with an everlasting love. He is a balanced God, and not a piecemeal God you think you know.





1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.


Now this thread needs to return to topic. It has been obviously hijacked. Universalism should be discussed in Unorthodox Theology, IMO. There are rules we must follow.

Click to expand...

This mind set of Heresey of Damation is worse then Hitler's mindset; I believe you desire eternal torture for billions.

First of all I just went over most of your question in my last post, and see no reason to answer them a second time. Yes the scriptures I gave you were out of context; but you said and I quote from you “That's just it--they are believing what THEY WANT! There is NO SCRIPTURE to back up what they think.” Now can you admit you are wrong, context or not?

If they are out of context, show me the context, and if you cannot show me all I have is your opinion. Here are a few to start with that I would love to start with:

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is

If “The damnable heresy is Universalism” Chapter and verve please not your opinion AGAIN…………….

I would love to discuss the second death (death to death)

Jesus did die for a purpose other then eternal torture; He reverse the curse.

Damnation is the same word for judgment as well as probation; God’s judgment is always just; there is no justice in eternal torture.

There is a lot more to God’s Wrath than anger, it also means strong desire.

What some matter you are not strong enough as a Christian to stand up to a Universalist, your dogma and creed cannot stand up to the truth. If I am so wrong prove it using God’s Word not your religious opinion.

fabulous beast said:

What I have learned about much of these things....
How was Adam and Eve damned from eternal life and brought to knowing death and sorrow? Satan didnt force them to eat the forbidden fruit...he fed them temptaion until they gave in. I investigate exorcisms as well. A possesed woman, while in tranced by the devils was asked, how do you communicate, how do you make this woman feel so horriable (suicidal), It responded "she hears my words, the power of suggestion is a powerful tool and you preacher are here to help, but its to late, I have planted in her that she is nothing."
Ever watch the cartoons with the little angel and devil on their shoulders telling them to do the right and wrong thing?
This is how most demons work. They simply get in your mind, tempt you, tell you bad things about yourself, All the while your unaware its a demon doing nasty things in your mind. God is there as well, reminding you not to belive things.

Example...this is neat.
The devils began telling me things I started to slip into depression, but then realized this was the work of the devils. So I rebuked them and laughed at their failure. guess what they did!! They left me, went into the other room and attacked my g/f. She came into the room raging angry at me, yelling about things I had done in the past. It of course made me feel bad at first, then realized the verse in the bible explaining that when you rebuke devils, theyll leave and find someone else. So I told her to relaz and explained that I had just rebuked those devils.
See the devils knew they could bother me. but they knew they could get to me by using my g/f.
She later apologized....not her fault of course.
Theres evil everywhere. And as age old and skilled as they are in their evil works, many of them drive ppl to know god.
lol
They failed to kill me. The first time I realized i had demons was when I was living a very bad life. I had my rifle under my chin, and within my head, I heard it screaming with anger " PULL THE TRIGGER!!! PULL THE F*****G TRIGGER!"
At that moment, my religeous cousin called from out of state. He never calls. Ever. Gods plan. I put the rifle down and talked to him and he explained the whole rebuking thing.

I lived a life of sin, because my devils were crafty. The sins seemed harmless.
My sins were hidden behind a cloak of "FUN".
And it nearly caused me to take my own life. My actions then hurt many ppl.
The devils know how to cause pain that spreads to many. All steming from just me.

They are evil. They hate us. They love to see us suffer. they are very real. And gods power silences them.
Always trust in our god. Forever and ever.

Click to expand...

Attually it was God who caused Adam to sin, Satan has limit powers.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have
Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

i don't think God caused it so much as he allowed it for a purpose.

Benoni said:

This mind set of Heresey of Damation is worse then Hitler's mindset; I believe you desire eternal torture for billions.

First of all I just went over most of your question in my last post, and see no reason to answer them a second time. Yes the scriptures I gave you were out of context; but you said and I quote from you “That's just it--they are believing what THEY WANT! There is NO SCRIPTURE to back up what they think.” Now can you admit you are wrong, context or not?

If they are out of context, show me the context, and if you cannot show me all I have is your opinion. Here are a few to start with that I would love to start with:

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is

If “The damnable heresy is Universalism” Chapter and verve please not your opinion AGAIN…………….

I would love to discuss the second death (death to death)

Jesus did die for a purpose other then eternal torture; He reverse the curse.

Damnation is the same word for judgment as well as probation; God’s judgment is always just; there is no justice in eternal torture.

There is a lot more to God’s Wrath than anger, it also means strong desire.

What some matter you are not strong enough as a Christian to stand up to a Universalist, your dogma and creed cannot stand up to the truth. If I am so wrong prove it using God’s Word not your religious opinion.

Click to expand...

If you have no strength of purpose to provide Scriptural context to make your argument for Universalism clear, by your very own admission, I'm not going to do that for you. The burden of proof is on you to clearly display the truth for all...or stop preaching this lie.

FURTHERMORE, THIS IS OFF-TOPIC. MOVE YOUR DEBATE.

Benoni said:

Attually it was God who caused Adam to sin, Satan has limit powers.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have
Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

Click to expand...

FALSE. God never causes ANYONE to sin. Satan influenced Adam and Eve. He tainted perfect Creation. Scripture attests to that fact. There is a difference between "allowing" sin and "causing" sin.


Back to the drawing board, eh?

Matthe 6:9-15 NIV

9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Why would Christ tell us to pray to the Father to not lead us into temptation if God tempted? It's simply unbiblical. Deliverance from the evil one, who is satan, is deliverance from temptation. Resist the devil and he shall flee as it also says.

Since you don't have alot of time for big answers then I'll ask one simple question. If what we call the lake of fire is meant for spiritual refinement, then why did Christ die?