What one would learn from Mahabharat?

[Daniels]

..........

 

[Futuwwa]

From where?

 

[baobobtree]

Though I haven't read the full Mahabharata I have the Bhagavad Gita. From this I can tell you I learned about the kind of courage it really takes to stand up to injustice.

 

[arunma]

From a secular perspective, the Mahabharatha is a fine piece of literature, and I enjoy its story quite a bit. Theologically speaking, it's only going to be useful to you if you want a lesson in idolatry and evil, so that you may reject the grace of the true and living God. Read it for fun if you're interested in ancient literature, but no part of the Hindu religion contains any truth at all.

 

[vedickings]

From a secular perspective, the Mahabharatha is a fine piece of literature, and I enjoy its story quite a bit. Theologically speaking, it's only going to be useful to you if you want a lesson in idolatry and evil, so that you may reject the grace of the true and living God. Read it for fun if you're interested in ancient literature, but it is essentially a pagan devotional.

You have a vary strange concept of evil.

 

[czach8]

Theologically speaking, it's only going to be useful to you if you want a lesson in idolatry and evil, so that you may reject the grace of the true and living God.

And the following biblical verses is what you embrace:

Joshua 7:15, “15And it shall be, that he that is taken with the devoted thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath; because he hath transgressed the covenant of Jehovah, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.”

I Kings 13:2 says, “And he cried against the altar by the word of Jehovah, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith Jehovah: Behold, a son shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he sacrifice the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall they burn upon thee.”

Judges 21:12, “And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead four hundred young virgins, that had not known man by lying with him; and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.”

Deut 21:10-11 says, “When thou goest forth to battle against thine enemies, and Jehovah thy God delivereth them into thy hands, and thou carriest them away captive, 11and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and thou hast a desire unto her, and wouldest take her to thee to wife;”

Deut 13:13-15 says, “13Certain base fellows are gone out from the midst of thee, and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in the midst of thee, 15thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.”

Deut 17:12 says, “And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before Jehovah thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. “

Exodus 22:20, 20He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto Jehovah only, shall be utterly destroyed.

Deut 17: 2-5 says, “2If there be found in the midst of thee, within any of thy gates which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that doeth that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3and hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, or the sun, or the moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4and it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, then shalt thou inquire diligently; and, behold, if it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel, 5then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, who hath done this evil thing, unto thy gates, even the man or the woman; and thou shalt stone them to deathwith stones.

Deut 22:28-30 says, “If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days. 30A man shall not take his father's wife, and shall not uncover his father's skirt.”

Judges 19:22-30 says, While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." 23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. 27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home. 29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. 30 Everyone who saw it said, "Such a thing has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Think about it! Consider it! Tell us what to do!"

Ezekial 9:5-7, “And to the others he said in my hearing, Go ye through the city after him, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity; 6slay utterly the old man, the young man and the virgin, and little children and women; but come not near any man upon whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary.”

Exodus 32:27-29 says, “And he said unto them, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor. 28And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. 29And Moses said, Consecrate yourselves to-day to Jehovah, yea, every man against his son, and against his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.”

Num 21:3 says, “3And Jehovah hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and the name of the place was called Hormah.

Num 31:32-35, Now the prey, over and above the booty which the men of war took, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep, 33and threescore and twelve thousand oxen, 34and threescore and one thousand asses, 35and thirty and two thousand persons in all, of the women that had not known man by lying with him.

Deut 2:31-34, “And Jehovah said unto me, Behold, I have begun to deliver up Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. 33And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining:

Judges 11:30-31, 34-39 says, “And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering. When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." 36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

Compared to the bible, the Mahabarat is like pre-school. I think Hindu parents would have their children watch Mahabarat cartoons rather than the bible cartoons and it's atrocious acts. Wouldn't you think?

Peace.

 

[czach8]

You have a vary strange concept of evil.

Trust me he does. He accepts murder of infidels, rape, and human sacrifice in the bible, but he still manages to call Hindu idolatry evil. Very strange. Very strange.

Peace.

 

[vedickings]

Trust me he does. He accepts murder of infidels, rape, and human sacrifice in the bible, but he still manages to call Hindu idolatry evil. Very strange. Very strange.

Peace.

I wonder about arunma sometimes, hes a little scary if you ask me.

 

[czach8]

From a secular perspective, the Mahabharatha is a fine piece of literature, and I enjoy its story quite a bit. Theologically speaking, it's only going to be useful to you if you want a lesson in idolatry and evil, so that you may reject the grace of the true and living God. Read it for fun if you're interested in ancient literature, but it is essentially a pagan devotional.

Better yet bro, maybe you shoud explain why God allowed the Jews to engage in idolatry:

Numbers 21:8, "The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

God bless you brother.

 

[baobobtree]

You have a vary strange concept of evil.

Meh. I'm just happy to see that Arunma can at least enjoy the Mahabharata from a secular stand point.

 

[czach8]

Meh. I'm just happy to see that Arunma can at least enjoy the Mahabharata from a secular stand point.

That is true bro, I will not deny that. God bless.

 

[arunma]

You have a vary strange concept of evil.

I believe that evil is defined by God and not man. Modern secular culture, as well as Hinduism, has a far stranger definition of evil than mine, since these philosophies permit individuals to define evil for themselves. The God of the church, however, has declared all idolatry to be evil. Because Hinduism is an idolatrous religion, God regards it as evil.

 

[czach8]

I believe that evil is defined by God and not man. Modern secular culture, as well as Hinduism, has a far stranger definition of evil than mine, since these philosophies permit individuals to define evil for themselves. The God of the church, however, has declared all idolatry to be evil. Because Hinduism is an idolatrous religion, God regards it as evil.

So why would God instruct the Jews to engage in evil idol worship:

Numbers 21:8, "The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

Brother, do you even understand what you are talking about?

Thank you.

 

[Omnichaotic]

I have no problem with "idol worship", or worshiping through a physical object, simply because in my eyes God is in everything and everything is in God.

"True" idol worship to me is living solely to please my lower, selfish nature, my ego.

 

[arunma]

So why would God instruct the Jews to engage in evil idol worship:

Numbers 21:8, "The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

Brother, do you even understand what you are talking about?

Thank you.

If I go against my better judgment and respond to your posts, will you promise to respond to my points and not ask me to answer irrelevant and lengthy questions?

In any case, you seem to have chosen a horrible example for your demonstration that God commands idolatry. The bronze serpent was a visible representation of God's grace through Jesus Christ, as is the Lord's Table to the church. As it says,

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. (St. John 3:14-15)
​

It was not God's intention that the Israelites should worship the serpent. In fact they did worship it at a later date, which is why God commanded King Hezekiah to destroy it. It says,

He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan). (2 Kings 18:4)
​

It is clear that the living God, who forbade idolatry, would never command it.

 

[czach8]

If I go against my better judgment and respond to your posts, will you promise to respond to my points and not ask me to answer irrelevant and lengthy questions?

Don't worry brother, I never do such things. But you must promise me that you answer all my relevant and lengthy questions. This is a forum you know?

In any case, you seem to have chosen a horrible example for your demonstration that God commands idolatry. The bronze serpent was a visible representation of God's grace through Jesus Christ, as is the Lord's Table to the church. As it says,

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. (St. John 3:14-15)

Well I am so happy that you were able to figure this out. However, you are forgetting the fact that Jews resorted to the serpent only because of their ignorance. Are you telling me if they had instead looked up to the heavens after being bit by snakes, they would still die? I highly doubt that. God was testing them, and even though they failed the test, His grace let them live, not the maya of the snake.

It was not God's intention that the Israelites should worship the serpent. In fact they did worship it at a later date, which is why God commanded King Hezekiah to destroy it. It says,

However, God allowed them to fashion this idol in the first place. Exodus 34:17 says, "Do not make cast idols." This is obvious a contradiction, but of course God can do what He so pleases, correct? He commanded the Jews to fashion the ark of the covenant, and that was not a form of idol worship?

Now I do not condone idol worship because of it's maya nature, and this is exactly why God did not condone such a worship. It is simply not real just like the bronze serpent. Did the sepent save the people from death? Of course not, it was the will of God.

It is clear that the living God, who forbade idolatry, would never command it.

But He did command it, and this is what you do not see. Are you saying Moses fashioned the serpent because of his own free will? Now according to Hinduism, idol worship is abominable even though in some respects it was practiced. Whether it was allowed or not in certain instances like the bronze serpent, I cannot say. However, Brahma who is the same as Yahweh instituted the Manu Law after the flood. This particular law is very similar to the OT laws. For instance:

Manusmirti Chp 3:152 says, “physicians, priests who associate with idols, sellers of meat, and those who subsist by shopkeeping must avoid making an offering to Bhrama”.

Therefore, your claims Hinduism is a paganistic and idol worshipping religion is not based on scripture. You only comment on what you see Hindus practice, but this is not what was intended to be. You are right, even the Jews fell victim to idol worship, and so do Christians who worship saints and bow down to crosses. However, as I said before this is not what God intended as true faith.

You know and I know, if Hindus refrain from idol worship and only revere the One who create them, then you will still condemn Hindus while also ignoring that Jesus is the Creator. It is obvious you deny God's universal nature. But again you do not think when you say certain things because in many instances other religions are very similar to Christianity including Hinduism. This is the reason why you cannot answer my questions. I see the big picture, and as long as you see the small picture you will always be under the delusion my questions are irrelevant and too lenghthy. The bottom line is that you lack clairvoyance (irrelevance) and you do not understand God's unlimited (lengthy) Word.

Peace bro.

 

[baobobtree]

I really don't see why we have to turn this into a debate here. Arunma has said before that he finds non-Christian religions to be evil, and we always end up turning threads into debates because of that. None of us are really benefiting from these debates, the only thing that will happen here is that (as usual) the thread will most likely be locked. We are free to believe as we do, and Arunma free to believe as he does.

 

[czach8]

I really don't see why we have to turn this into a debate here. Arunma has said before that he finds non-Christian religions to be evil, and we always end up turning threads into debates because of that. None of us are really benefiting from these debates, the only thing that will happen here is that (as usual) the thread will most likely be locked. We are free to believe as we do, and Arunma free to believe as he does.

Sometimes brother you have to remind such people what their religions teach because they assume others do not know. This is the mistake Arunma always makes, but again you are right, let us talk about the Mahabarat.

Peace bro.

 

[czach8]

..........

The first chapter of the Mahabarat makes a revered connotation to the One and only God:

First parva "What is found here, may be found elsewhere. What is not found here, will not be found elsewhere."

The central theme of Mahabarat is considered the war of greater earth. Essentially is a major war between good and evil forces. For instance, the The Adi-parva chapter explains why all snakes should be destroyed. But also, evil men directed by the demons were also to be eliminated. Therefore, this particular warfare entaile both spiritual and physical spectrums. Again though, the source of goodness(God) eventually prevails in this war.

There are many characters involved in this Hindu epic, and centrally Krishna is one of them. Many other Hindu scriptures are also reiterated throughout the Mahabarat such as the Gita, vishnu sahasranama, damayanti, etc.

Again, I have not fully read this story only because there are short versions of this epic. I have seen the 4 volume set, but this version is difficult to read. Until I find a comprehensive version I will not read it again. If you find it, I recommend reading it.

Peace and God bless.

 

[arunma]

Well I am so happy that you were able to figure this out. However, you are forgetting the fact that Jews resorted to the serpent only because of their ignorance. Are you telling me if they had instead looked up to the heavens after being bit by snakes, they would still die? I highly doubt that. God was testing them, and even though they failed the test, His grace let them live, not the maya of the snake.

Sorry, but you're making an extrapolation that doesn't agree with the Bible. The Lord Jesus' analogy to the serpent makes it quite clear that God intended for its use as a sign of their trust in him. The text doesn't support your interpretation that the bronze serpent was a concession to the ignorance of the Israelites. And if you disagree with me, then feel free to support your claims with Scripture.

However, God allowed them to fashion this idol in the first place. Exodus 34:17 says, "Do not make cast idols." This is obvious a contradiction, but of course God can do what He so pleases, correct? He commanded the Jews to fashion the ark of the covenant, and that was not a form of idol worship?

The fact that God commanded the constructed the Ark of the Covenant, adorned with the cherubim, should be evidence to you that this does not constitute the construction of idols. The alleged contradiction is not as obvious as you say it is.

Now I do not condone idol worship because of it's maya nature, and this is exactly why God did not condone such a worship. It is simply not real just like the bronze serpent. Did the sepent save the people from death? Of course not, it was the will of God.

Doctrines of Maya and Prakriti are false doctrines of Hinduism. They don't find any support in the Bible. Again, I would challenge you to support your claim with Scripture. Please also bear in mind that the commentary you tend to supply does not substitute for Scripture itself.

But He did command it, and this is what you do not see. Are you saying Moses fashioned the serpent because of his own free will?

No, I am not.

Now according to Hinduism, idol worship is abominable even though in some respects it was practiced. Whether it was allowed or not in certain instances like the bronze serpent, I cannot say. However, Brahma who is the same as Yahweh instituted the Manu Law after the flood. This particular law is very similar to the OT laws. For instance:

Manusmirti Chp 3:152 says, “physicians, priests who associate with idols, sellers of meat, and those who subsist by shopkeeping must avoid making an offering to Bhrama”.

Therefore, your claims Hinduism is a paganistic and idol worshipping religion is not based on scripture. You only comment on what you see Hindus practice, but this is not what was intended to be. You are right, even the Jews fell victim to idol worship, and so do Christians who worship saints and bow down to crosses. However, as I said before this is not what God intended as true faith.

You seem to be under the impression that Hinduism has some sort of sola scriptura doctrine. Hinduism does not venerate its scripture as Christians venerate ours. Hindu scripture does not define Hinduism. Even apart from the fact that other Hindu scriptures condone idolatry, your quoting of Hindu scripture is meaningless. You seem to be interpreting this false religion from a pseudochristian mindset.

You know and I know, if Hindus refrain from idol worship and only revere the One who create them, then you will still condemn Hindus while also ignoring that Jesus is the Creator. It is obvious you deny God's universal nature.

Yes, I would condemn any religion that denies the sovereignty of Jesus Christ. And yes, I deny the notion of a univeralist god.

But again you do not think when you say certain things because in many instances other religions are very similar to Christianity including Hinduism. This is the reason why you cannot answer my questions. I see the big picture, and as long as you see the small picture you will always be under the delusion my questions are irrelevant and too lenghthy. The bottom line is that you lack clairvoyance (irrelevance) and you do not understand God's unlimited (lengthy) Word.

The problem here is that your questions are frivolous, and are based on logically inconsistent conclusions from various religious scriptures. Christianity has not been your only victim. Indeed you've angered Hindus as well with your revisionist views of religion. In general, religion is not a science: original thought is not encouraged. Most religions operate under the assumption that some god has revealed his will to humanity, and when you invent original ideas, you effectively usurp the god's role as revelator. In the end, you've constructed a theology which is acceptable neither to Christians nor to Hindu idolators.