What of Lutherans?

[rmwilliamsll]

Because each Lutheran Chruch is a self governing body, there are some that do not follow the docternal issues that are implemented in the larger body of the Lutheran Churches.

I hope you will not hold that against the rest of us.

i do not understand how you are using the term "Lutheran Churches"? is this a single church or a collection of churches?

or the phrase "a self governing body"?
for in general Lutheran churches are not independent like the Baptists but rather hierarchical and episcopal like the RC or Anglican communions. I'm not sure that there are many independent Lutheran churches, if any.

 

[5SolasinKY]

I posted this on another thread... I wanted to share it here.

In my town, where I worship, every Lent my congregation (Lutheran) and another congregation (RCatholic) have a joint study, so that we better understand each others congregations and "religions" We always focus on the positives of both churches, not on our differences, but our sameness! This is a positive in our community. Father Tom has offered the homily at my church, Pastor Chuck has offered the homily at Father Tom's parish! It is a wonderful thing.

....and you and the Lutheran denomination are slowly assimilated....

We need another Luther!!!

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

We need something, but it is not another Luther.

I love Luther. I've read his Bondage of the Will and love it. I've used his commentary of Galatians. I're read other parts of Luther's writings and I've read Bainton's biography and a good bit of Reformation histories.

Luther did good, but he also did serious damage to the Reform movement. He was such a "doctrinal purist that he would not even speak with Zwingli on the Lord's Supper. His reaction to Zwingli reminds me of Kruschev at the U.N.

Almost Churches to day seem to think that the whole Church of Christ (His body) needs to be an eyeball. Unity but no diversity in the Church, therefore we Protestants tend to be hyper-schismatic and seperate over theological gnats (and bigger issues).

We all insist on mega-doctrinal purity to be one, therefore we have no unity at all and are divided into tens of thousands of denominations. I don't have the answer to this, but it needs to be reversed. We need unity and allow for "some" doctrinal diversity in Christ's Church.

How many conservative Reformed Churches in the USA today? I would guess there are more than a dozen or so. That is a terrible witness to the World, and damages our ability to disciple fellow believers into the Reformed faith.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another...But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. (Gal. 5:13, 15) THis is too often the case today.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: (1 Peter 1:22)

Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. (1 Peter 3:8,9)

Now the next part, We are to have sound teachings and we are to defend the truth, but we are to do so in love and with longsuffering. We too often say its my way (wich we think is God's way) or the highway. That is not how we are to treat unbelievers, much less our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
We seem to keep overlooking these verses.



In Christ,
Kenith

 

[5SolasinKY]

If Luther had not been 'Luther' we would all be reciting "Hail Mary"s and paying for indulgences.

We need all to be Luthers in this: that we stand with Christ first, and not with those who would preach a different gospel. Luther may have been overzealous, but I would rather be burned by a Luther than compromise with a Tetzel. The Tetzels today are often deceived themselves, and they seem more like us, but they are Tetzels just the same.

I realize and am willing to admit that many paedobaptists are my brethren, many Pentecostals are my brethren, many of a multitude of traditions are my brethren. In cleaving to Christ, however, I am further from those who preach another gospel, not closer. Just because they do some things that seem religious, are familiar, are ethical and moral, does not mean I should break bread with them.

The thing in your passages that you are missing is that some may seem to be one of the "one another"s, but they are not. These verses are not an exhortation to include anyone that other passages tell us to leave off from.

Some may be saved and be participating in the RCC. If any are saved and are in that circumstance, we don't need to give them a reason to stay. We need to be a light so they know where they should be.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

If Luther had not been 'Luther' we would all be reciting "Hail Mary"s and paying for indulgences.

We need all to be Luthers in this: that we stand with Christ first, and not with those who would preach a different gospel. Luther may have been overzealous, but I would rather be burned by a Luther than compromise with a Tetzel. The Tetzels today are often deceived themselves, and they seem more like us, but they are Tetzels just the same.

I realize and am willing to admit that many paedobaptists are my brethren, many Pentecostals are my brethren, many of a multitude of traditions are my brethren. In cleaving to Christ, however, I am further from those who preach another gospel, not closer. Just because they do some things that seem religious, are familiar, are ethical and moral, does not mean I should break bread with them.

The thing in your passages that you are missing is that some may seem to be one of the "one another"s, but they are not. These verses are not an exhortation to include anyone that other passages tell us to leave off from.

Some may be saved and be participating in the RCC. If any are saved and are in that circumstance, we don't need to give them a reason to stay. We need to be a light so they know where they should be.

Hello again 5 Solas,

I agree with much of what you say. Luther was the right man for his day. God raised him up for a purpose. But, as you know, we live in very different circumstances and the problems of the church today are not the same as those of 1517.

You wrote:

I would rather be burned by a Luther than compromise with a Tetzel

The good news is we have many other options. I am not for unity at all cost and I am not for compromise of doctrine. I am for being longsuffering and gentle when dealing with the real differences that seperate the body of Christ.

Too often, we are rude and impatient when dealing with our brethren this is condemned in Scripture, but we seem to find excuses to continue doing it. (and ZEAL for doctrinal purity is the #1 excuse usually given) This only further divides (as it did the Reformation movemant -- i.e. Luther to Zwingli and Westphal to Calvin).

I am not for returning to Rome, but I am also against schism amongst Reformed Churches over none essentials, which is so much the norm today.

Corm Deo,
Kenith

 

[JoyforJESUS]

i do not understand how you are using the term "Lutheran Churches"? is this a single church or a collection of churches?

or the phrase "a self governing body"?
for in general Lutheran churches are not independent like the Baptists but rather hierarchical and episcopal like the RC or Anglican communions. I'm not sure that there are many independent Lutheran churches, if any.

"Lutheran Churches: ELCA, WLS, Lutheran Church of the Bretheran, LCMS

Yes all have a higher governing body, but they are also automous, in that each church sets its worship practices, some are "progressive" some are "high Lutheran" Masses

 

[JoyforJESUS]

....and you and the Lutheran denomination are slowly assimilated....

We need another Luther!!!

Why would assimulating into the a single "church" be a bad thing? When Jesus Returns we will All be one "church", as infact we are not, the Chruch that Christ himself started. We are different only because we humans decided to be different denomanations (sp).

 

[5SolasinKY]

Is this selective listening?

We already are one church. The Bible never says to become one church, it says we are one church. There is one catholic church. It has no bodies within it that preach another gospel.

 

[kimlva]

Is this selective listening?

We already are one church. The Bible never says to become one church, it says we are one church. There is one catholic church. It has no bodies within it that preach another gospel.

Exactly!! And if they do preach another gospel, they are NOT brethren, and are not part of the one true church!

 

[JoyforJESUS]

Exactly!! And if they do preach another gospel, they are NOT brethren, and are not part of the one true church!

amen

 

[JoyforJESUS]

Is this selective listening?

We already are one church. The Bible never says to become one church, it says we are one church. There is one catholic church. It has no bodies within it that preach another gospel.

And yet, here we are discussing/arguing if one church is right or wrong.

 

[5SolasinKY]

Please quote where I said one church is wrong.

 

[cubanito]

5Solas, I don't know what you think, but I clearly believe there are many visible Churches that are so far from the Gospel they should no longer be considered Christian Churches.

What concerns me is that the differences between the conservative Reformed Churches today are very minor when compared the the wholesale apostasy of much in Protestantism. As a Presby, I am trying to understand what exactly divided, and still divides, the conservative Calvinist from the conservative Lutheran. Frankly it seems very small considering the number of "Reformed" denominations (Lutheran or Presby) that deny the authority of the Bible. And without an inerrant Bible, what's the use of any clear theology?

JR

 

[JoyforJESUS]

Please quote where I said one church is wrong.

My Humble appologies, I re-read, and I misinterpeted what you had said. Perhaps this is because when I made that particular post I was also in a "discusssion" with someone that I feel was attacking Lutherans. My opinion only. I do believe that we are one chruch, and that the WORD of GOD is the final earthly authority whereby faith is nurtured. I hold the Pope in high regard. I know that there are churches that twist the Bible for their own use.

Again I humbly apoligize for misunderstanding.

 

[JoyforJESUS]

Goodnite to all, I hope that we can all come and worship together at sometime, here on earth! I know we will in Heaven!

 

[JoyforJESUS]

humm, nobody wanting to discuss anymore

 

[cubanito]

You scaried us all away, good night

 

[JoyforJESUS]

You scaried us all away, good night

I am sorry if I scared you off. I am just so tired of being told that the problem with the RC church was Luther, and that being Lutheran is a bad thing.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I am sorry if I scared you off. I am just so tired of being told that the problem with the RC church was Luther, and that being Lutheran is a bad thing.

Luther was not a problem for the RCC. The Medieval Church had problems LONG before Luther came on the scene. There had been Godly men calling for Reform for centuries before Luther arrived on the scene.

Luther arrived at the right time when everything came together. You had had several VERY corrupt Popes. Pope Leo X, was selling high Church offices to men and then authorizing the very despicable practice of selling indulgences (forgiveness for cash) to recoup the monies borrowed but the buyer of the ill gotten high archbishopric.

I think Luther did great things and he made grave mistakes. Today we are still strongly influenced by the good he did and by his errors. Had the spirit of Melancthon won the day, after Luther passed from the scene, we would, (IMHO) be far better off. Instead the Lutheran Church turned from mild mannered Melacthon to me like Westphal who were hard nosed and recalcitrant.

Every church has such men, who would rather fight to the death over mole hills and split fine theological hairs instead of working with their brethren who, though doctrinally close, disagree on minor points.

Calvin and Melacthon both worked to bring the Reformed and Lutheran Churches together. Most of their doctrianal descendents have been far less willing to work together than they themselves were.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[JoyforJESUS]

I am sorry if I scared you off. I am just so tired of being told that the problem with the RC church was Luther, and that being Lutheran is a bad thing.

My friends, it hit me after much prayer on the matter of this andd another thread about Lutherans, that all of us are being prideful! With that being part of the problem. The book of Proverbs all of a sudden came to my mind. Here is the Chapter, that I turned to PROVERBS 16:

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8 Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10 A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]11 A just weight and balance are the LORD's: all the weights of the bag are his work.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12 It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13 Righteous lips are the delight of kings; and they love him that speaketh right.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]14 The wrath of a king is as messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify it.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15 In the light of the king's countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver![/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]20 He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso trusteth in the LORD, happy is he.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]21 The wise in heart shall be called prudent: and the sweetness of the lips increaseth learning.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]22 Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]23 The heart of the wise teacheth his mouth, and addeth learning to his lips.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]24 Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]26 He that laboureth laboureth for himself; for his mouth craveth it of him.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]27 An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]28 A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]29 A violent man enticeth his neighbour, and leadeth him into the way that is not good.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]30 He shutteth his eyes to devise froward things: moving his lips he bringeth evil to pass.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]31 The hoary head is a crown of glory, if it be found in the way of righteousness.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.



Perhaps we need to give heed to the LORD>
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