They say things like "how can you believe in a God, who creates people for the sole purpose of casting them into the lake of fire to be tormented forever".
Wow, you have a great big bunch of accusations against God there. I'm not sure how you came up with so many but that's not the way I know God to be.Salvation does not depend upon God first having to miraculously act upon a person (regeneration) for a person to be saved. Such an idea not only makes God a respecter of persons (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) it makes God culpable for the ones God chose not to regenerate. And how does God go about choosing whom He regenerates and whom He does not? Flip of the coin so to speak? How would know with any certainty he even has been regenerated?
God never unconditionally, randomly choose to save certain individuals while choosing to leave the rest to be lost. Before the world began God foreknew there would be a group called "Christian" and those who obey the gospel (as the jailer) and become part of this foreknown group become God's chosen. God allows men to use their free will to choose to become or not become part of this group, God does not make that choice for men. 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9 why would God's preceptive will want/desire all men be saved if God already predetermined many to be lost? Ezekiel 33:11 why is God displeasing Himself by choosing for men in determining certain men to be lost against their own will? Why would God desire "the wicked turn from his way and live" having already predetermined them to be lost?
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
If these Jews were unchosen by God to be saved, God left them "unregenerate' then why would Christ desire/would they be saved? Makes no sense, a contradiction with God. But what if these Jews were chosen by God to be saved, then why did they refuse the salvation Christ offered them?
Mark 10:17-22
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
If this rich man had been unconditionally predetermined by God before the world began to be lost:
---then why did (God) Jesus offer this man salvation, treasure in heaven, come follow Me already knowing this man had been predetermined to be lost? Was God sadistically teasing this man with salvation knowing already he would not be saved?
---why did Jesus "love" this man and not "hate" him as Esau was supposedly 'hated' as Calvinists' view Esau being hated in Romans 9?
---if this lost man was "totally depraved" ("T" in TULIP), then how was he able to keep God's commandments? Mark 10:20 Why even would he have any concern or care about having eternal life? Mark 10:17. Being totally depraved he would have no understanding or have any concerns about spiritual things
---how can there be just 'one thing lacking' in his salvation if he had no salvation at all? The implication is he had met all required conditions to be saved except for one that being going and selling his goods and give to the poor. Does this imply he was already chosen and regenerated by God but still lacked something?
On the other hand.....
If this rich man had been unconditionally predetermined by God before the world to be saved:
---then why did he reject and walk away from the salvation offered him by Christ?
--since this man was "loved" then why was he not saved as Jacob who was "loved" and saved per Calvinists' view of Romans 9?
---again, if he was unconditionally predetermined by God to be saved before the world began, why was there still something 'lacking' in his salvation, why was there something he needed 'to do' in order to be saved if God had already "monergistically", unconditionally, 100% TOTALLY and 100% COMPLETELY procured and 'worked out' his salvation for him once and for all time before the world began? Mark 10:21
Clearly God has not unconditionally predetermined each man's eternal destiny for that man, but man has free will and can use that free will to go against what God wills, what God wishes/ desires for that man.
(I see from your other posts you left the entanglements of Catholicism but are now getting entangled with Protestantism/Reformed theology. Just keep studying and you will get to the truth.)
We can affirm that all of these things are true because scripture teaches them. We're not like you Arminians who just run away and hide so you can avoid dealing with difficult Bible doctrines."In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331.) Wayne Grudem (Calvinist Professor)
Calvinism created this illogical problem for itself, this is not a problem the Bible has created. And Calvinism conveniently writes off its self-created problem as "mystery" rather than giving a Biblical answer whereby they can avoid having to deal with it.
That's right, God is the One who will torment the damned in the lake of fire forever. He prepared the lake of fire for the Devil and His Demons and all those who joined them in their rebellion1. People have more than one purpose.
2. Torment is self-inflicted. "Torture" is by somebody else.
Everything you wrote above is sound Biblical doctrine, but I would like you to clarify one thing.The answer is Christ--Christ's life, death, and resurrection. Christ suffered and died for you, for me, for all. That's what saves us, that's how we are saved. And we don't do that, Jesus has already done it.
The question then is how does what Christ did become appropriated to us, how do I--individual and wretched sinner that I am--receive what Christ has done that I might benefit from it?
The answer to that question is that God does that too, through His Means of Grace. God gives us faith as pure gift, apart from ourselves (Ephesians 2:8), and He does this through the word (Romans 10:17).
Thus wherever the Gospel is preached and the Sacraments administered, there God is present and active in converting sinners, justifying them freely by His grace, through faith which He gives them.
Therefore it is written, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, and if we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we shall be saved; just as we read also that whoever has been baptized has been baptized into Christ, and has therefore died with Christ, been buried with Christ, and raised to new life in Christ; having been born again of God. And all else Scripture plainly and clearly teaches.
No one earns salvation.
No one merits salvation.
No one can be saved by what he or she does, thinks, feels, believes, or says. All of these things are works, which the Apostle plainly teaches cannot save us (Ephesians 2:9).
What saves is Jesus Christ. We are saved by God's grace alone, through faith, on Christ's account alone. God Himself accomplishes this for us, giving it to us freely as pure gift. We are therefore passive recipients of the good gifts of God who loves us and saves us in Jesus Christ our Lord.
-CryptoLutheran
Yes we know all about Peter but Peter is not God, so all he was doing was preaching and suggesting and nothing more. Just as we do today, but that's a long way of being a commandment from God.
I believe in what God said, so as much as I respect what men say I must make them liars. God said "let God be true and every man a liar".The answer to a great extent depends upon whether you are quoting Paul's letters or the Gospels. It is not just me who has come to said conclusion, but also numerous Biblical critics who post online. Paul emphasized faith in Jesus, whereas Jesus mostly talked about loving God and loving our fellow man. As I have said many times in CF, both faith and good works are important.
All scriptures are beautiful because they are God breathed, but it's a great blessing to have the whole counsel of God to edify and encourage us.Genesis 15:6
And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:1-25
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, ...
Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
Genesis 7:1
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.
If I read this before I was converted, I would mock you and your God. I was happy living as a heathen (one who lives for pleasure).To become a child of God, you must receive Jesus, (John 1:12),by asking Him into your heart (Revelation 3:20), where He then dwells (Ephesians 3:17and Colossians 1:27), repent and ask Him to forgive your sins so they are forgiven (Acts 3:19 and Acts 20:21), and call upon His name to be saved Romans 10:13.
Prayer for salvation: Lord Jesus, I believe you died for my sins and rose again - please come into my heart, forgive my sins, save my soul, and make me a new creation. In your name, amen.
We can affirm that all of these things are true because scripture teaches them. We're not like you Arminians who just run away and hide so you can avoid dealing with difficult Bible doctrines.
Who are we to tell God what He can and can't do with His property, All you can achieve by attempting to do this foolish thing, is have yourself cast into the lake of fire. So it's better to keep our nose out of Gods business or else
No, read again, my accusation are against the faults of Calvinism to which you avoided responding. YOU are on trial here, so can you respond to the Bible evidence I gave in showing faults with Calvinism rather than making unfounded attacks against the person bringing the evidence?Wow, you have a great big bunch of accusations against God there. I'm not sure how you came up with so many but that's not the way I know God to be.
The only advice I would urge you to take is, let God be God and you be who He commands you to be. You have no right as a filthy rotten sinner to put God on trial, Lucifer tried to to that and look where He's going to spend eternity.
You make it sound as if you have climbed into God's mind and taken control, now He has to obey your dictates. Well I'm here to urge you to repent and give God back His glory and you go about doing the work He gave you and stop questioning Him as it's a very sinful thing to do.
I love these old testament scriptures about the Creator of all things The Lord Jehovah Jesus ChristOK. We just scratch these off then.
Genesis 15:1-21
After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.” And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Genesis 22:1
After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Genesis 15:6
And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:1-25
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, ...
Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
Genesis 7:1
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.
Please allow the Bible to take it a step further. If you accept the Bible teaching that God created all things, then you accept that God created us with all of our attributes and abilities.When it comes to predestination or not, it seems to me there's a paradox involved. Since God is omniscient, He already knows who will accept Him and who will reject Him before they are born. So based on that some are born unto salvation and others are born unto destruction. God knew from before the foundation of the world, which would be which.
I personally have no problem or issue whatsoever with anything God does, in fact I love everything He preordained and everything He does.---I'm not Arminian, there are things about it I do nt agree with.
--- "....how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent...." Scripture is silent on it for Scripture never affirms that God forces men to do wrong thru ordination then punishes men for the wrong God forced them to do. Such corrupts God's nature in being unjust, unloving. To claim this would be Calvinists sticking their nose into God's business.
John Calvin: "Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined." (John Calvin, Inst. I.xvi.8. 1539 edition)
If a murderer on trial in a courtroom states "it's not my fault, God made me do it" and he may be laughed at or called a liar or sent for mental evaluation. Yet Calvinists proclaim that very thing.
===Calvinism false claims man is born totally depraved. If such were true then Pharaoh would have been infected with it whereby he would naturally disobey God as his totally depraved nature would dictate him to do. Therefore why would God have to harden Pharaoh's heart against his will when Pharaoh's totally depraved nature would already have made Pharaoh to disobey?
===what sense can be made of the book of Jonah? God ordained Nineveh to do wickedness..... God sends Jonah to preach to them.....yet in 40 days and Nineveh would be destroyed...Nineveh repented...but then God repented of destroying Nineveh.
If God predetermined Nineveh to be lost, then why send Jonah to preach to them knowing they would not be saved? How, why could Nineveh repent if they were both totally depraved and ordained to be lost? Why would God ever have to "repent" (Jonah 3:10) if all has been preordained?
My question is do we have the right to add our own conditions, if we feel the Bible left out critical information.
If salvation is from the Lord and he saves you so you can believe, he gets the glory. If He only provides hoops for you to jump through (free will choices) you get the glory in fictional supposed salvation.
You can tell by the voice spesking, that's it's not Jesus.I love these old testament scriptures about the Creator of all things The Lord Jehovah Jesus Christ
This is a common but important question.
Acts 16:30-31 says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"
But I see many here adding their own conditions to earn salvation.
My question is do we have the right to add our own conditions, if we feel the Bible left out critical information.
My question is do we have the right to add our own conditions, if we feel the Bible left out critical information.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?