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What must I do to be saved?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Dan1988, Feb 23, 2021.

  1. A.ModerateOne

    A.ModerateOne Member Supporter

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    I do not know any believer in the sovereignty of God who believes "...in a God, who creates people for the sole purpose of casting them into the lake of fire..." But, I know how arrogant it is to try and delve into the mind of God and fully understand him! God is incomprehensible to the sinful mind of man:

    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa 55:8-9, NRSV)

    “Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. (Job 11:7-9, NRSV)

    These are indeed but the outskirts of his ways; and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand?” (Job 26:14, NRSV)

    He has made everything suitable for its time; moreover he has put a sense of past and future into their minds, yet they cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. (Eccl 3:11, NRSV)

    O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Rom 11:33-34, NRSV)

    Then, the Almighty has pretty much told us His secrets are none of our business, we are to follow His instructions to us:

    The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29 NRSV)
     
  2. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    Salvation does not depend upon God first having to miraculously act upon a person (regeneration) for a person to be saved. Such an idea not only makes God a respecter of persons (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) it makes God culpable for the ones God chose not to regenerate. And how does God go about choosing whom He regenerates and whom He does not? Flip of the coin so to speak? How would know with any certainty he even has been regenerated?
    God never unconditionally, randomly choose to save certain individuals while choosing to leave the rest to be lost. Before the world began God foreknew there would be a group called "Christian" and those who obey the gospel (as the jailer) and become part of this foreknown group become God's chosen. God allows men to use their free will to choose to become or not become part of this group, God does not make that choice for men. 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9 why would God's preceptive will want/desire all men be saved if God already predetermined many to be lost? Ezekiel 33:11 why is God displeasing Himself by choosing for men in determining certain men to be lost against their own will? Why would God desire "the wicked turn from his way and live" having already predetermined them to be lost?

    Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

    If these Jews were unchosen by God to be saved, God left them "unregenerate' then why would Christ desire/would they be saved? Makes no sense, a contradiction with God. But what if these Jews were chosen by God to be saved, then why did they refuse the salvation Christ offered them?

    Mark 10:17-22

    And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
    And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
    Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
    And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
    Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
    And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions
    .

    If this rich man had been unconditionally predetermined by God before the world began to be lost:

    ---then why did (God) Jesus offer this man salvation, treasure in heaven, come follow Me already knowing this man had been predetermined to be lost? Was God sadistically teasing this man with salvation knowing already he would not be saved?
    ---why did Jesus "love" this man and not "hate" him as Esau was supposedly 'hated' as Calvinists' view Esau being hated in Romans 9?
    ---if this lost man was "totally depraved" ("T" in TULIP), then how was he able to keep God's commandments? Mark 10:20 Why even would he have any concern or care about having eternal life? Mark 10:17. Being totally depraved he would have no understanding or have any concerns about spiritual things
    ---how can there be just 'one thing lacking' in his salvation if he had no salvation at all? The implication is he had met all required conditions to be saved except for one that being going and selling his goods and give to the poor. Does this imply he was already chosen and regenerated by God but still lacked something?


    On the other hand.....


    If this rich man had been unconditionally predetermined by God before the world to be saved:

    ---then why did he reject and walk away from the salvation offered him by Christ?
    --since this man was "loved" then why was he not saved as Jacob who was "loved" and saved per Calvinists' view of Romans 9?
    ---again, if he was unconditionally predetermined by God to be saved before the world began, why was there still something 'lacking' in his salvation, why was there something he needed 'to do' in order to be saved if God had already "monergistically", unconditionally, 100% TOTALLY and 100% COMPLETELY procured and 'worked out' his salvation for him once and for all time before the world began? Mark 10:21

    Clearly God has not unconditionally predetermined each man's eternal destiny for that man, but man has free will and can use that free will to go against what God wills, what God wishes/ desires for that man.


    (I see from your other posts you left the entanglements of Catholicism but are now getting entangled with Protestantism/Reformed theology. Just keep studying and you will get to the truth.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  3. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    "In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331.) Wayne Grudem (Calvinist Professor)

    Calvinism created this illogical problem for itself, this is not a problem the Bible has created. And Calvinism conveniently writes off its self-created problem as "mystery" rather than giving a Biblical answer whereby they can avoid having to deal with it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  4. A.ModerateOne

    A.ModerateOne Member Supporter

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    Reading your two posts brought a particular verse to my mind:

    "They set out to be teachers of the law, although they do not understand either the words they use or the subjects about which they are so dogmatic." (1Tim 1:7 REB)

    You would do well to study a textbook on hermeneutics, I suggest:

    https://icotb.org/resources/PrinciplesofInterpretation.pdf
     
  5. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
    According to your opinion, what did I misinterpret?
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The answer is Christ--Christ's life, death, and resurrection. Christ suffered and died for you, for me, for all. That's what saves us, that's how we are saved. And we don't do that, Jesus has already done it.

    The question then is how does what Christ did become appropriated to us, how do I--individual and wretched sinner that I am--receive what Christ has done that I might benefit from it?

    The answer to that question is that God does that too, through His Means of Grace. God gives us faith as pure gift, apart from ourselves (Ephesians 2:8), and He does this through the word (Romans 10:17).

    Thus wherever the Gospel is preached and the Sacraments administered, there God is present and active in converting sinners, justifying them freely by His grace, through faith which He gives them.

    Therefore it is written, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, and if we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we shall be saved; just as we read also that whoever has been baptized has been baptized into Christ, and has therefore died with Christ, been buried with Christ, and raised to new life in Christ; having been born again of God. And all else Scripture plainly and clearly teaches.

    No one earns salvation.
    No one merits salvation.
    No one can be saved by what he or she does, thinks, feels, believes, or says. All of these things are works, which the Apostle plainly teaches cannot save us (Ephesians 2:9).

    What saves is Jesus Christ. We are saved by God's grace alone, through faith, on Christ's account alone. God Himself accomplishes this for us, giving it to us freely as pure gift. We are therefore passive recipients of the good gifts of God who loves us and saves us in Jesus Christ our Lord.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  7. Taodeching

    Taodeching Well-Known Member

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    Acts 2:38
     
  8. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your words. Scripture counters...

    "We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."—2 Cor. 5:20

    A message is given. A response is required. There is a choice.
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You think people save themselves and cheat God out of his glory. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (salvation) which you must have before you can believe in truth.
     
  10. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your words again. The Scripture I posted suggested no such thing.
     
  11. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The answer to a great extent depends upon whether you are quoting Paul's letters or the Gospels. It is not just me who has come to said conclusion, but also numerous Biblical critics who post online. Paul emphasized faith in Jesus, whereas Jesus mostly talked about loving God and loving our fellow man. As I have said many times in CF, both faith and good works are important.
     
  12. Saint JOHN

    Saint JOHN Member

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    Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Repent ; baby's cant (man made blasphemous rubbish)

    Baptism ; Greek word which means immerse ,dip ,submerge etc ;symbol of burial ,right under!

    (that's your part to show a simple obedience to God)

    receive the Holy Ghost ( Gods in your face response to your now asking[and keep on asking until his response} by your compliance to his will and his sons sacrifice)


    Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    no no its faith... no no its grace...no no if i confess ( which most don't do so would mean you agree with and say the same as Jesus Christ eg mark 16v16 etc !)no no just believe as in john 3v16 (if you true believe then again Mark 16v16+) its all a package deal !!

    so you KNOW when someone has received just same today as 2000 years ago..

    acts 2v4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    no not for languages if you read properly you will see soon just babble must be drunk....

    1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    don't be confused as Paul shows how to use IN THE CHURCH (people not a building)

    1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
    (they all could and still do !)

    Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

    Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

    and here if you agree with..confess..etc

    Mark16v16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    package deal for those who confess, believe and don't tamper with or try to adjust for there own imagination.. Gods way or the highway !

    Mt 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
     
  13. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

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    Believe that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead and you shall be saved.
     
  14. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Genesis 15:6
    And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

    Romans 4:1-25
    What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, ...

    Romans 4:3
    For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

    Hebrews 11:7
    By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

    Genesis 7:1
    Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.
     
  15. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    To become a child of God, you must receive Jesus, (John 1:12),by asking Him into your heart (Revelation 3:20), where He then dwells (Ephesians 3:17and Colossians 1:27), repent and ask Him to forgive your sins so they are forgiven (Acts 3:19 and Acts 20:21), and call upon His name to be saved Romans 10:13.


    Prayer for salvation: Lord Jesus, I believe you died for my sins and rose again - please come into my heart, forgive my sins, save my soul, and make me a new creation. In your name, amen.
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If salvation is from the Lord and he saves you so you can believe, he gets the glory. If He only provides hoops for you to jump through (free will choices) you get the glory in fictional supposed salvation.
     
  17. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Only God and the individual know if he is saved. Nobody else can know for sure. Not obeying the gospel shows us the person is currently not saved, but we never know if God will yet grant them salvation.

    I don't know anything, I just put my trust in the One who knows everything and He takes care of those minor details.

    I'm not sure if you're joking about the "but it is God who saves us by judging our hearts". If that were the case every single person would be cast into hell, because the heart of mankind is wicked above all things.
     
  18. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Abraham and Noah were saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, just as everyone else who is saved is. There is only One savoir from the beginning, so every saved person in history was saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There's just no other way, if anyone tells you there is well you know they're a liar......
     
  19. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I simply tell them what God said about it. God doesn't punish anyone for anything they didn't deserve.
    So these evil accusers of God twist the truth 180 degrees and claim that God just created them and cast them straight into the lake of fire. They don't mention the life of evil they lived raping children and then murdering them by the millions.
     
  20. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    OK. We just scratch these off then.

    Genesis 15:1-21
    After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.” And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

    Galatians 3:11
    Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

    Genesis 22:1
    After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”

    Titus 3:5
    He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


    Genesis 15:6
    And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

    Romans 4:1-25
    What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, ...

    Romans 4:3
    For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

    Hebrews 11:7
    By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

    Genesis 7:1

    Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.
     
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