What makes you convinced?

Hello Wellwisher

Thank you, Jonathon.

During those times when you dont feel much at all, do you find yourself doubting your faith? What is the best way for you, personally, to strengthen your faith?

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Sorry for the late reply. To answer your question the kind of evidence which Salida mentioned is very important to me. Mcdowell is excellent. So is Lee Strobel, and if you want to read something that will really blow your mind on this subject try Chuck Missler. This kind of evidence gives a solid foundation when feelings are lacking but somehow faith goes even deeper than that.

I think that in most cases unbelievers who think that this evidence is just biased and unscientific have not given it a chance. People do not want to believe in God because it makes them accountable for their actions. There is also an idea that Christians are just less intelligent than the rest of the population. This is obviously nonsense but isn't it interesting that the symbol for atheism here is a brain!

In saying that faith is a spiritual issue. I'm sure we have all had moments when we suddenly see things with more clarity and can't understand how we ever thought differently. The Bible tells us that unbelievers' minds have been "blinded" by the enemy (2 Cor. 4:4).

"The supreme achievement of reason is to bring us to see that there is a limit to reason." Blaise Pascal

Wellwisher,

I am also very interested in psychology and have studied a little. Your research sounds fascinating. One of my former tutors from Bible College has done some research into similar areas which you may be interested in. He has looked into the relationship between certain personality traits and beliefs. His name is William Kay and his findings will be in academic journals, but I know he has a book titled "Pentecostals in Britain" which includes a section on personality and beliefs among Pentecostal ministers. If I remember rightly he found that Pentecostals scored lower on psychoticism than the general population. If you do a search for him I am sure you will be able to find something on this.

By the way the Chuck Missler book I was thinking of is called "Learn the Bible in 24 hours".

Jonathan

I just can't convince my soul that there is nothing but life and death. There has to be a God in heaven and he is there waiting for me and all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

My husband convinced to me attend his pentecostal church one sunday morning and let me tell you it changed my life. Everything the preacher was talking about was exactly what I needed to hear from God. I felt like God was speaking thru our preacher directly to me and after that day, I have no longer denied God.

For me..a feeling as well. When I am outside and feel the wind or sunshine or the rain..I can just feel God's presence..or when I am running out on a back country road I talk to God, and I dont know I just know someone is listening..its God. Also when I pray many of my prayers have been answered. There is so much proof than there is of evolution and such. It just takes a little faith....

I am interested in what makes you (personally) convinced of your belief in Jesus and the Bible as the Word of God. What is your strongest, most compelling piece of evidence? The thing/s that made you think 'okay - this is true?' and the thing that helps restore your faith when it is shaken?

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I dont think anyone is totaly convinced. Certainty could only be possible if Christianity were proven to be 100% true. Then itwould be a matter of fact not faith. We base our faith on a "feeling" of certitude, it is an emotional response to the Gospel. In many ways I would say we (I) want it to be true and our doubts arrise because it seems too good to be true. From the outside looking in Christianity is far fetched Virgin births, coming back to life these things are stumbling blocks to the unbeliver. However from the inside it takes on a whole different complexion a totally different understanding. What appears false on the outside appears true on the inside.

For example once we fall in love with the message of the Gospel and make that commitment to it, the supernatural gift of faith and believe in God, instead of dismissing these things as false we begin to look at how to understand them our whole approach is different. Faith seeks understanding, disbelief can not begin to understand.

What gives me the feeling of certitude primeraly is the emotional effect the teachings of Jesus Christ has on me, my desire to commit to them and then comes the resulting gift of faith that there is a God. then things like the ressurection, the virgin birth no longer seem imposible "with God all things are possible" these stumbling blocks become stepping stones the things once seen as impossible become "matter of fact" then through faith you begin to understand that it all fits, it all works and faith in Christ has the ability to Change the world for the better, which in turn hightens your emotional response to the Gospel message, increases your faith, increases your understandin, hightens your emotional response increases your faith, increases your understanding and so on and so forth.

I am conviced because a couple of years ago, when I had just about lost my faith and was trying very hard to believe in anything else, Jesus spoke to me and told me he was real.

This was a voice in my head, but unlike the usual voice of my own thoughts. I can't prove it to anyone else, but I have absolutely no doubt at all from whence that voice came.

everything around me none of this could have happened just by chance

Hey WellWisher, sorry I am late.

I like these kind of threads, because as a new Christian, they are generally the ones I can actually reply to and feel I'm qualified to do so heh.

wellwisher said:

Now for those who argue for the validity of the Bible, have you read the critiques of those scientist/historians who say that prophecy has been fulfilled?

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I won't say all of them, but a fair few yes. For example, the ones that I had doubts about the most.

wellwisher said:

I mean, is it the case that you objectively weigh the arguments, or is it the case that you are satisfied because you "know that you know" that they are true (ie. something within you testifies to the truth of these things).

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For me personally, it was more along the lines of that I was happy nothing outright contradicted it. For example the Bible didn't say something happened one way, lets say, the Earth is square, and we know it isn't. Something like that, is what I understand many people to be looking for. It's termed a magic bullet argument, that is, and instant kill or put down. As soon as one thing is proven incorrect, then we cannot reconcile the rest based on faith.

So when I read up on things, and they offered an explanation that I could actually deem believable, then I was very pleased with that and felt satisfied.

I've been asking myself a lot recently why it took me so long to get around to being satisfied, and for that I have no answer. If I did, I guess we could instantly convert people.

wellwisher said:

And (related to the above paragraph) how does anyone know that their personal experience is objectively true? What I mean is, our culture is saturated with God concepts and Biblical quotes. It is easy to recall them and think it is God talking to you - just as easy as recalling other sayings/teachings from one's childhood, etc.

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I feel that this is of detriment more than it is of aid. If I had a buck for everything I thought I knew about God and the Bible, only to find out it was taken completely out of context or just plain incorrect, I would be a wealthy man.

In fact I attended a course recently, which was more about marriage (from a Biblical point of view) than anything else, but to establish things the counsellor asked 10 simple questions based on the Bible of things that everyone knew, and probably everyone knows regardless of their faith. I think I got 6/10. They were simple things like what animal swalled Jonah, where was Jesus when the three wise men visited him and so on. I got both of those wrong. The answers are a large fish (not a whale) and in his house, playing. So yeah, for me anyhow, the secular experience of God didn't help me.

wellwisher said:

Could it be the case that you are looking for evidence in the things that happen to you? Like if I pray for my cancer to be healed, and then it is suddenly healed...how do I know it was God (the Father)?

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I struggle with this myself. Especially recently, as I asked for a career move, and God presented me with something I wasn't expecting. I still now, keep asking myself, "Was that God, or just chance." I think the hardest thing in the world is to surrender decisions up to God and follow what may come from His guidence.

There are a few ways to tell what God wants from us. This is straight form the Alpha course btw:

Commanding Scripture - Reading the Bible and having it speak to you, ie being very pertinent to your situation and prayers.
Compelling Spirit - This is evidenced in strong feelings, thoughts and desires one way or another. Unwavering thoughts along a particular line, a feeling you can't shake and so on.
Common Sense - This is pretty self explanatory and helps weed out the random thoughts, like, "Should I jump into that fire? Will God save me?" and so on.
Counsel of Saints - Listening to others essentially, especially those people of Christ.
Circumstantial Signs - One not to be relied on too heavily, but sometimes you will find yourself somewhere you didn't intend to be, or someone will engage you in a conversation of an unusual nature and maybe hit on something of importance to you.

So yeah, we aren't without ways to help guide us.

wellwisher said:

As far as I can tell, this kind of thing happens all over the world, all the time, across all belief systems, with or without prayer. Surely that is evidence that such things just happen as part of the nature of our reality and have no bearing on type of beliefs held? (that's a question that gives away how I think about things).

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The way I think of this, is that God doesn't stop working in people's lives because they are of a certain faith, or lack of faith. He will continue to guide and prompt and lead because He wants what is best for us. Eventually, and hopefully it becomes eerie to the degree that things happen. I guess we call this coincidence, but for me at least, there are some things I just cannot put down to coincidence. Meeting my wife is one of them, if there was ever a perfect person for me that happened to walk into my life at the perfect time, with the perfect words and patience, she is it. The remote situation that brought us together, I believe, was God's Will.

Maybe He got tired of trying to lead me with signs, and decided I needed someone with a more direct approach. Hehe.

wellwisher said:

I am not being argumentative, just trying to understand whether Christians are actually critical of their experience, or whether they accept all unusual events as evidence for God's intervention in their life.

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Again I can only speak for myself, but given the world we live in, it takes a very strong mind to fly in the face of all of life's lessons and actively seek knowledge for yourself, when really, you feel perfectly adequate without it, that is... until you get it.

wellwisher said:

The reason that I ask is that I automatically ask these kinds of questions and subject everything to critical analysis. That is who I have always been, and it may not be the correct way (that's for sure). I accept that about myself nowadays.

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Well that is very similar to how I am too. Even now, I don't think you need to give that up, but I have adopted a firm framework to interpret my information (The Bible), and it's made life far more interesting and exciting, and I feel infinitely better for it too.

wellwisher said:

Yet I have been working with Christians a lot lately and I have observed that they attribute everything good that happens to God and everything bad to Satan or some kind of attack. These individuals seem to have no personal hand in what happens at all!! And yet they seem to be racking up a lot of evidence for their beliefs because they dont look for normal explanations first (like good things happen to them because they have worked hard on bringing them about).

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I'm not that familiar with spiritual warfare. I won't put down everything bad that happens to me to Satan. Sometimes I am just stupid. I think this is also part of how faith advances in people. At the start I don't think many of us are like this, but as you progress, get closer to God and understand Him more, I can well imagine it will take that form in my life at a later stage.

wellwisher said:

Once again - I am simply airing my own personal concerns and hope that you can help. I am not out for a debate (nor interested in one). It would just help to hear some ideas from people who believe. I cannot ask the people at work these questions, because they could become upset (thinking that I am challenging their beliefs) - and it is sincerely not my intention to upset anyone, nor challenge anyone's beliefs. I just want to understand.

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Interestingly, we are under orders to do exactly what we are here, in real life too. You have a very friendly and non-confrontational manner about you, if your posts are any indication to go by, and I would say that they would be more than happy to talk to you about these things. I would strongly suggest doing it over a lunch or something like that, which is what I did with my boss. My sessions didn't go very well, but theres a first time for everything hehe, but yeah, why not ask them? They certainly shouldn't object. Depending on the strength of their faith they may not wish to, which is ok too.

All the best, God bless and keep well.
Digit

wellwisher said:

Thanks to everyone - and a special thanks to Digit who put together such an extensive post (that must have taken a while!).

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It's only a pleasure, like I said, I actually feel like I am qualified in this area hehe.

*snip*

wellwisher said:

Okay now I am rambling...

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I actually think you are probably getting a little closer to the truth of the matter. I can explain why, here we go: I have a few friends who exhibit this sort of vocal reasoning. Where they get my attention on MSN or at work, and they have a problem or question they need help with. So we begin chatting, and there is always a turning point, where they sort of begin to defend the position they had previously attacked. I'm not talking in any malicious way, or that of a heated debate. I would take their stance, as my default position and loyalty is to them, and as they chat and discuss it, they end up taking the opposite stance and it's as if I have taken the place of them, and they the place of whatever the problem was. An example will help with this, lets say one of them was having trouble with their parents. They would come to me and start talking about it. I would side with them (not always, but mostly ) and agree and give advice based on my thoughts and experiences. Then this turning point would occur where they begin defending their parents position, and because I have been siding with him, I almost take on his position. It's like a real role reversal, except it always happens without us really seeing it. Needless to say, it really helps as all of a sudden the problem gets some light shone on it from both directions, and you can really see what the problem it. Occasionally it's totally unrelated to what we thought it was.

Now often, I would get really frustrated about this, because I just basically felt useless in the whole process. I mean, they had a problem, came to me, and used me as a sounding board. But after seeing how many awesome decisions came about from these little impromptu sessions, I began to feel otherwise.

Now, drawing a long slightly unorganised post together, I don't think you are rambling, and I think any Christian would be perfectly happy acting as a sounding board (so to speak) for your questions and concerns, regardless of what stance you took.

Also, and I am not really aware of the actual situation your side, but from a Christian point of view, I can't imagine them throwing you out, because you aren't of one faith with them. That seems decidedly un-Christian to me, but then, we aren't all perfect so I think your best judgement will see you through this.


All the best, God bless.
Digit