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What makes the elect sons ?

beloved57

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rom 8:

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

According to this blessed portion here faith does not make us sons but predestination does..cp

heb 2:

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
 

Van

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What does make a person a child or son of God? Being born again in Christ.

What makes a person elect? When they are chosen to be set apart by being spiritually placed in Christ.

When is a person predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ? When they are born again as a child of God, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

When does a person become an heir with an inheritance reserved in heaven? When they are born again and become a spiritual child of God.
 
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grtcr

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rom 8:

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

According to this blessed portion here faith does not make us sons but predestination does..cp

heb 2:

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hello beloved 57, this is your ole nemesis, grtcr: I would like to correspond with you on this, providing we can be civil. Let me tell you where we would differ on your statement.

The eternally decreed elect were not saved, not justified, not adopted, not united to Christ, hence not possibly saved in any actual sense whatsoever before the world began, nor so in time prior to justifying faith given in conversion, because of Adam’s Fall, albeit saved in the intentions of God excepted (2 Tim. 1:9). Before justifying faith, Christ’s righteousness established, by satisfying Law and Justice of the Father, has secured entitlement to all spiritual blessings for the elect; but the elect are not in actual possession of that entitlement, nor therefore permitted to any spiritual blessings to which Christ has established entitlement, while in a “state” of unbelief, wrath, and sin imputed to their persons.

In conjunction with this, when Paul writes in 2 Tim. 1:9, “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” this does not mean that the elect were in any actual sense “saved” before the world began, or somehow made to be regarded ‘less lost’ than Reprobates in time. Simply, it means that God purposed not only that the elect would be saved, but also the manner in which they should be saved. God appointed His Son to be their Representative, and God intended that the elect should be saved based upon the obedience of their duly fore-appointed Representative. God’s purpose made it sure and certain that the elect would be saved thus. The “grace” given the elect “before the world began” was not the grace of salvation, let alone justification, but the initial grace of election, purposed towards them “in Christ,” their Representative, who would come and establish righteousness for them in time; and, based on such righteousness, entitle them to that faith through means of which God purposed they should be saved in time.

Let us briefly note the crucial distinction between the elect’s being in union with Christ and the elect’s being united to Christ. These are not one and the same, as the one occurs previous to, or is the cause of, the other. The former is the gracious work of God, the Father, in predestination done towards the elect before time; and the latter the gracious work of God, the Holy Spirit, in conversion done in the elect in time. All is based upon the work of God, the Son incarnate, in redemption done for the elect, which work was agreed upon between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, before time, in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace. The Son then performed this work in time, according to the conditions of that covenant that the Father assigned to the Son as Mediator (see Zech 9:11; Gal. 4:4; Eph. 1:4; Tit. 1:2; Heb 7:22; 1 Pe. 1:18-20). Again, we see the necessary distinctions to be strictly maintained between the Persons in the Godhead, as well as between each Person’s distinctly appointed office and work.

We deny that the pre-regenerate elect person (before faith in the Gospel) is ‘united’ to Christ until faith in the Gospel, because of sin imputed, for God’s wrath abides wherever sin is imputed. The Justice, holiness, righteousness, and truth of God cannot allow but that He blesses sinners whom He finds righteous and holy in His sight. Even so, this is not to deny such a person’s eternal ‘union’ had “in Christ” before time, because of being so early not considered a sinner, or chosen before Adam’s Fall. The truth is that the Father positioned the elect into representative union with Christ before the world began (see Eph. 1:4, “in Him”), and appointed not only the Son appointed to be their Representative, but also the means through which the elect should be saved (faith, repentance, perseverance). Yet, the elect are not united to Christ nor He to them until they, in their own persons and in each successive generation, hear, understand, obey, and love God’s Gospel and exercise their own acts of savingly believing the Gospel and evangelically repenting in light of that faith had in the Gospel. The elect are not united to Christ until possessed of justifying faith and godly sorrow, in time and personal experience. Consider:

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them [the elect] also which shall believe on me [the doctrine of the Son’s Person and work being fitted to ungodly sinners] through their word [the Gospel preached]; That they all may be one [hence united to Christ, based on righteousness and as the fruit and effect of believing the Gospel]; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me (Jn. 17:20-21).

We may think of this distinction easily thus: The elect are “in Christ” before the world began (Eph. 1:4), but Christ is not ‘in the elect’ until called, all and every one, by the Gospel, through “sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thes. 2:13-14). :wave:
 
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Van

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I do not think there is any such thing as justifying faith. It is God who justifies the unjust based on His acceptance of our faith in Christ.

In my view, the idea of being given grace before time began is this: when Christ was chosen as Redeemer that grace was given before time began. But that grace is later received when we are spiritually placed in Christ. God's intention before time was to redeem those whose faith in Christ would be credited as righteousness.

There is no difference in being united with Christ and being in union with Christ. When we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are united with Christ and we are made alive together with Christ, thus in union with Christ.

God did not unite the elect with Christ before the world began, what Ephesians 1:4 says is God chose us in Him before the world began, which means when God chose His Redeemer, He also in effect chose those who would be redeemed, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you have a redemption purpose and plan. Thus those who are "in Him" are blessed with a blessing granted to anyone subsequently redeemed, from before time when our Redeemer was chosen.

In summary, the elect were not "in Him" before time, nor were the elect individually chosen before time, because 1 Peter 2:9-10 indicates first we lived without mercy before we were chosen to be a people for God's own possession. Rather, after God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, then He spiritually places us in Christ, where together with Christ we are made alive, spiritually born again as a child (son) of God. When God chooses us individually based on accepting our faith, that is our election unto salvation.
 
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grtcr

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I do think there is any such thing as justifying faith. It is God who justifies the unjust based on His acceptance of our faith in Christ.

I idea of being given grace before time began is that when Christ was chosen as Redeemer, that grace given before time began, is received when we are spiritually placed in Christ. God's intention before time was to redeem those whose faith in Christ would be credited as righteousness.

There is no difference in being united with Christ and being in union with Christ. When we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are united with Christ and we are made alive together with Christ, thus in union with Christ.

God did not unite the elect with Christ before the world began, what Ephesians 1:4 says is God chose us in Him before the world began, which means when God chose His Redeemer, He also in effect chose those who would be redeemed, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you have a redemption purpose and plan. Thus those who are "in Him" are blessed with a blessing granted to anyone subsequently redeemed, from before time when our Redeemer was chosen.

In summary, the elect were not "in Him" before time, nor were the elect individually chosen before time, because 1 Peter 2:9-10 indicates first we lived without mercy before we were chosen to be a people for God's own possession. Rather, after God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, then He spiritually places us in Christ, where together with Christ we are made alive, spiritually born again as a child (son) of God. When God chooses us individually based on accepting our faith, that is our election unto salvation.

So, yours is a "conditional" salvation, right? You believe that you must muster up enough faith to believe, am I right? What say you?
 
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beloved57

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van

do think there is any such thing as justifying faith. It is God who justifies the unjust based on His acceptance of our faith in Christ.

Thats not biblical , thats heresy..

The God only accepts christ blood..

I idea of being given grace before time began is that when Christ was chosen as Redeemer, that grace given before time began, is received when we are spiritually placed in Christ. God's intention before time was to redeem those whose faith in Christ would be credited as righteousness.

The elect were chosen when the christ was chosen because he was the head and the elect were His body, if you admit to christ being chosen before the world began then thats admitting to the elect being chosen as well..Thats why it says chosen in him..

eph 1:

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
 
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Van

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Yes, salvation is conditional, whoever believes in Him shall not perish. But salvation does not depend upon our faith, whether it is strong or weak, but rather whether God credits our faith as righteousness. For salvation does not depend on the man that wills, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He has mercy. And I am sorry about the omission in the first line of post#4, I have edited it to correctly state my position.

Here is some of the evidence of Conditional Election that I find in scripture.


The premise that our individual election - God choosing us as specific individuals for salvation - occurs during our lifetime after God accepts our love and commitment to Christ as sufficient for His purpose, is scripturally supported by the following passages, in addition to 1 Peter 2:9-10 which puts the time of God's choosing during our lifetime.


James 2:5 indicates that God chooses the poor based on the world’s value system, folks that are rich in faith to be heirs of the kingdom, which He promised to those who love Him. Clearly no matter whether the choice is made during the lifetime of the individual, or based on the foreseen condition of the individual, the choice is based on the characteristics of the individual, someone although having little in the way of material wealth who is “rich” in faith, who loves Jesus.

Matthew 19:16-26 indicates that folks must turn loose of all their worldly treasures and trust only in Jesus in order to enter the kingdom of God. Again, clearly teaching that our heart attitude contributes to gaining entrance to the kingdom of God. Our faith in Christ provides our access to God's saving grace, for we are saved by grace through faith.


1 Corinthians 1:18-31 indicates that if we hold ourselves in high regard, thinking of ourselves – I am wise, I am educated, my PhD trumps your high school diploma – we are adhering to the wisdom of the world. But through the wisdom of the world, we will not come to know God, verse 21. Instead, if we hold ourselves in low regard, thinking of ourselves – I am foolish, I make mistakes, I am a sinner, helpless to save myself – we are ready to accept the gospel of Christ crucified. Thus again, our heart condition contributes to gaining entrance to the kingdom of God. And God did this, chose folks of humility to shame those who are wise in their own eyes, verses 26-29. Again, clearly teaching that God chooses folks for salvation based at least in part on their heart condition, hence a conditional election.
 
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Van

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Of course Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb of God. And God's plan was for Christ to redeem believers, hence believers (us in Ephesians 1:4) were chosen conceptually as the target group of His redemption plan. But this cannot be our individual election, because 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes that interpretation.

Returning to topic, what makes us children of God? When we are spiritually placed in Christ, we arise in Christ a new creation, a spiritual child of God. As a spiritual child or son of God, we are heirs to an inheritance reserved in heaven for us.
 
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grtcr

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Yes, salvation is conditional, whoever believes in Him shall not perish. But salvation does not depend upon our faith, whether it is strong or weak, but rather whether God credits our faith as righteousness. For salvation does not depend on the man that wills, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He has mercy. And I am sorry about the omission in the first line of post#4, I have edited it to correctly state my position.

Here is some of the evidence of Conditional Election that I find in scripture.


The premise that our individual election - God choosing us as specific individuals for salvation - occurs during our lifetime after God accepts our love and commitment to Christ as sufficient for His purpose, is scripturally supported by the following passages, in addition to 1 Peter 2:9-10 which puts the time of God's choosing during our lifetime.


James 2:5 indicates that God chooses the poor based on the world’s value system, folks that are rich in faith to be heirs of the kingdom, which He promised to those who love Him. Clearly no matter whether the choice is made during the lifetime of the individual, or based on the foreseen condition of the individual, the choice is based on the characteristics of the individual, someone although having little in the way of material wealth who is “rich” in faith, who loves Jesus.

Matthew 19:16-26 indicates that folks must turn loose of all their worldly treasures and trust only in Jesus in order to enter the kingdom of God. Again, clearly teaching that our heart attitude contributes to gaining entrance to the kingdom of God. Our faith in Christ provides our access to God's saving grace, for we are saved by grace through faith.


1 Corinthians 1:18-31 indicates that if we hold ourselves in high regard, thinking of ourselves – I am wise, I am educated, my PhD trumps your high school diploma – we are adhering to the wisdom of the world. But through the wisdom of the world, we will not come to know God, verse 21. Instead, if we hold ourselves in low regard, thinking of ourselves – I am foolish, I make mistakes, I am a sinner, helpless to save myself – we are ready to accept the gospel of Christ crucified. Thus again, our heart condition contributes to gaining entrance to the kingdom of God. And God did this, chose folks of humility to shame those who are wise in their own eyes, verses 26-29. Again, clearly teaching that God chooses folks for salvation based at least in part on their heart condition, hence a conditional election.
One more question. How do you define righteousness. If you're wondering why I ask you these few questions...well...I'm simply giving you enough rope to hang yourself.
 
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grtcr

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Yes, salvation is conditional, whoever believes in Him shall not perish. But salvation does not depend upon our faith, whether it is strong or weak, but rather whether God credits our faith as righteousness. For salvation does not depend on the man that wills, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He has mercy. And I am sorry about the omission in the first line of post#4, I have edited it to correctly state my position.

Here is some of the evidence of Conditional Election that I find in scripture.


The premise that our individual election - God choosing us as specific individuals for salvation - occurs during our lifetime after God accepts our love and commitment to Christ as sufficient for His purpose, is scripturally supported by the following passages, in addition to 1 Peter 2:9-10 which puts the time of God's choosing during our lifetime.


James 2:5 indicates that God chooses the poor based on the world’s value system, folks that are rich in faith to be heirs of the kingdom, which He promised to those who love Him. Clearly no matter whether the choice is made during the lifetime of the individual, or based on the foreseen condition of the individual, the choice is based on the characteristics of the individual, someone although having little in the way of material wealth who is “rich” in faith, who loves Jesus.

Matthew 19:16-26 indicates that folks must turn loose of all their worldly treasures and trust only in Jesus in order to enter the kingdom of God. Again, clearly teaching that our heart attitude contributes to gaining entrance to the kingdom of God. Our faith in Christ provides our access to God's saving grace, for we are saved by grace through faith.


1 Corinthians 1:18-31 indicates that if we hold ourselves in high regard, thinking of ourselves – I am wise, I am educated, my PhD trumps your high school diploma – we are adhering to the wisdom of the world. But through the wisdom of the world, we will not come to know God, verse 21. Instead, if we hold ourselves in low regard, thinking of ourselves – I am foolish, I make mistakes, I am a sinner, helpless to save myself – we are ready to accept the gospel of Christ crucified. Thus again, our heart condition contributes to gaining entrance to the kingdom of God. And God did this, chose folks of humility to shame those who are wise in their own eyes, verses 26-29. Again, clearly teaching that God chooses folks for salvation based at least in part on their heart condition, hence a conditional election.

Here is a post from another thread, it applies to you also:

I have read many of your posts, so, I do not want to unduly labor myself with the abuse of having to choke down a hundred of your statements, nor myself with the tedium of unnecessarily giving you more face time than your post requires. I will simply attack and effectively defeat in short order, and quite beyond recovery, your false view of justification. Since your view of justification is so demonstrably in error—because scriptually no one is saved but that he is justified, and all whom God has “justified by His blood” [pollow oun mallon, arguing from greater to lessor, “much more then…” indicating the end of glory is the most certain to happen for such, since “having been declared righteous,” or “justified” on ground of Christ’s righteousness for such, “us”], these also “shall be saved from wrath through Him” [swyhsomeya, future passive indicative] (Rom. 5:9), “and whom he justified, them” [ and all of these, and none but these, in the Greek the predicate in the previous clause, “called” (ekaleses), becoming co-equally the subject of the next, viz., those precise same said “justified”(edikaiwsen), and so likewise structured from those “foreknown” (proegnw), with the same “predestained” (prowrisen), till the same class, having been called and justified, finally and undiminishably “glorified” (edoxasen): with all verbs in the pattern being first constative aorist active indicatives, implying certainty of the consummation for the persons in the Divine counsels] “…he also glorified” (8:30), so says Paul unequivocally in these texts regarding God’s elect, only and always the same ever justified, and so for whom Christ died (8:33-34) –then, this make your view of a conditioned salvation (justification) impossible: because, as this line of argument logically and exegetically proves, the ones confessing Christ and yet who “fall away” and apostatize from the faith, were manifestly never justified, and so always unregenerate till then since never effectually called, to begin with, and not provably otherwise; else, they had been certainly “saved from wrath through through Him,” exactly as the apostle said all person ever justified are, since all people once justified are in fact, and in full, imputed a perfect righteousness, at once complete, properly belonging, not to them, but to God’s Son, “who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor:5:21); and thus are infallibly saved from the wrath to come on the unjust, into forever, just as the texts above say without equivocation, and beyond all reasonable contradiction. Perhaps you can provide me some meaningful counter-exegesis to these verses above, vindicating your side from these texts lonely considered?

Nonetheless, no need from you to answer the text, it was meant for another, but; please answer this...what is your definition of RIGHTEOUSNESS? It will bring us back to the thread...what makes the Elect Sons? The question alone discovers the answer...before you plow into the ditch, so to speak.
 
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Van

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Hi Grtcr, you asked a question concerning conditional salvation, and I answered it. Next you copy and paste a blurb that equates loss of salvation (or the idea of needing to sustain the conditional of salvation) with conditional salvation. Sorry, but the two concepts do not equate. Once God credits our faith as righteousness (the conditional), He places us "in Christ" and therefore saves us and once we are actually saved, we are saved forever unconditionally. Now we may lose rewards, but as one escaping from a fire, we will enter heaven.

I never left the topic of the thread, being born again makes us children (sons) of God.

Righteousness refers to having a right relationship with God. As a sinner, we are separated, and this separated relationship is not right. We are the unjust, and He is just. People work too hard at drawing intellectual distinctions concerning many of the words in scripture. Thus I like the old saying, when we are justified, it is just as if we never sinned. The barrier that separates us from God is set aside when we are justified and made righteous. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ we are no longer separated. When God credits our faith as righteousness, it is like the Old Covenant idea that He then sprinkles us with the blood of Christ which then applies the propitiation of Christ to us individually. Thus once God places us spiritually in Christ, we are saved, we are made righteous, we are justified, we are spiritually glorified.
 
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grtcr

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Hi Grtcr, you asked a question concerning conditional salvation, and I answered it. Next you copy and paste a blurb that equates loss of salvation (or the idea of needing to sustain the conditional of salvation) with conditional salvation. Sorry, but the two concepts do not equate. Once God credits our faith as righteousness (the conditional), He places us "in Christ" and therefore saves us and once we are actually saved, we are saved forever unconditionally. Now we may lose rewards, but as one escaping from a fire, we will enter heaven.

I never left the topic of the thread, being born again makes us children (sons) of God.

Righteousness refers to having a right relationship with God. As a sinner, we are separated, and this separated relationship is not right. We are the unjust, and He is just. People work too hard at drawing intellectual distinctions concerning many of the words in scripture. Thus I like the old saying, when we are justified, it is just as if we never sinned. The barrier that separates us from God is set aside when we are justified and made righteous. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ we are no longer separated. When God credits our faith as righteousness, it is like the Old Covenant idea that He then sprinkles us with the blood of Christ which then applies the propitiation of Christ to us individually. Thus once God places us spiritually in Christ, we are saved, we are made righteous, we are justified, we are spiritually glorified.

It is this information I am seeking to gather from you, which accounts for why I’m engaging you. In other words, I’m not so shallow as to merely try to “win a debate,” or play “one-upsmanship.” I don’t have time, it being God’s time to be wisely redeemed, to play these kinds of mind games. So, saying all that to say this: Know that my motivations are honorable, God be witness.

Let us set up a foundation for judging: Granted, I cannot read hearts, nor can any man another’s (Jer. 17:9), but I can, and must because I’m so commanded to by the Lord, to judge the state and condition of one’s heart by the words one confesses, since a person’s words betray that state and condition, either for the good or for the ill; so says the Lord Christ.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh (Luke 6:45).

Judging others is every Christian’s obligation, duty and responsibility, it is not an option, nor a polite suggestion, but an express command. Elsewhere, Christ gives us, all His true followers, an infallible rule by which to judge others, lined out in Matthew 7: 15-27:

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

This is a heavy passage, to be sure, and it is to be taken seriously by every disciple of Christ. Hence it is that an unregenerate “tree,” like any and all trees and plants of the natural world, will only and always eventually speak, and so do, fruit so becoming of his false profession: I say “eventually,” because this may not always be evident initially, but, not in violation of this rule of nature, it will be eventually, and that infallibly, if one is pressed upon his presupposition correctly; because God converts no one apart from renewing their mind, and to a discernible degree so upon conversion. No Christian is ever converted apart from his mind, nor without being given a certain degree of knowledge, which is reguired for salvation. A converted person is never divorced in Scripture from right knowledge of the Gospel, to any extent or degree. I assert the following propositions thus:

1) Every regenerate person knows the true God, and the true Christ of Scripture:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent (John 17:3).

2) Every regenerate person knows, and no person is freed from unregeneracy and sin unless and until he knows, the truth of this Jesus Christ, His person and work:

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32).

3) Any person that is praying to a “God” who cannot save in the manner that God has declared that He saves is not praying “in spirit and truth” (cf. John 4: 24) to the true God of Scripture, as all true worshippers do, and thus is a God-hating idolater:

Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save (Isaiah 45:20).

4) Any person professedly serving God yet with incorrect Gospel theology positively lodged in the mind, or serving “according to knowledge,” concerning the person and work of Christ, is a lost religionist, regardless of sincerity or zeal of otherwise orthodoxy:

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to KNOWLEDGE Romans (10:2).

5) Any person not understanding the Gospel, or the essential message of the person and the work of Christ, is “veiled” in understanding, and so lost; otherwise, it had not been hid, veiled, or subject, to misunderstanding, since it is only so from, to, and in them respectively that are lost:

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4:3-6).
 
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grtcr

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Continued:

Clearly, then, the mind is involved, hence meaning a certain degree of right knowledge, in every conversion.

A spurious tree will inevitably be, as I like to say, “smoked out” of his hole for what he really is, and then must be decisively judged accordingly: whether he ought be considered regenerate of unregenerate based on his intuitive commitments (or lack thereof) to the truth of the Gospel, or on the “doctrine of Christ” (2 Jn. 9-11). So the regenerate tree of his true profession, if so pressed on his commitments likewise. An unregenerate tree “cannot” evince fruit of a regenerate tree, nor the regenerate of the unregenerate. It is impossible, according to Scripture.

What decides the issue of judging the validity of another’s profession? Not good deeds, for even Paul had these as an unregenerate, law-loving, will-worshipping false religionist:

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless (See Phil 3:4-6).

Not any degree of orthodoxy, for even the Pharisees believed in one God, the resurrection of the dead, angels, miracles, ect. But what did neither of these believe as lost people, having thus what error in common? Answer: Intuitive knowledge of the sufficiency of the person and work of Christ. Hence, any “good fruit” seeming to authenticate an otherwise false profession is still according to and becoming of the unregenerate nature. Because all “religious” works done from a dead nature, whether done “in the name of Christ,” or for the “Lord’s sake,” are simply abominations aggravating condemnation, are dead works derived from a wicked heart; and in fact amount to, as Paul said of himself, “fruit unto death.” Whereas, a person’s doctrine on the person and work of Christ is more immediately evidential of one’s heart, it’s state and condition.

Every regenerate person will believe, because being given a “new heart” opened and not merely a change of the old one improved, a certain “form of doctrine” which is efficacious unto justification, and hence salvation:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness (Romans 6:18).

Thus John notes (2 John 9-11) that one’s position on “the doctrine of Christ” may be the dependable basis upon which we might judge another’s profession. If one deviates from, to any extent or degree, he is unregenerate.

I shall later press to the ends of the earth some of your prior commitments.














 
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grtcr

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I do not think there is any such thing as justifying faith. It is God who justifies the unjust based on His acceptance of our faith in Christ.

In my view, the idea of being given grace before time began is this: when Christ was chosen as Redeemer that grace was given before time began. But that grace is later received when we are spiritually placed in Christ. God's intention before time was to redeem those whose faith in Christ would be credited as righteousness.

There is no difference in being united with Christ and being in union with Christ. When we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are united with Christ and we are made alive together with Christ, thus in union with Christ.

God did not unite the elect with Christ before the world began, what Ephesians 1:4 says is God chose us in Him before the world began, which means when God chose His Redeemer, He also in effect chose those who would be redeemed, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you have a redemption purpose and plan. Thus those who are "in Him" are blessed with a blessing granted to anyone subsequently redeemed, from before time when our Redeemer was chosen.

In summary, the elect were not "in Him" before time, nor were the elect individually chosen before time, because 1 Peter 2:9-10 indicates first we lived without mercy before we were chosen to be a people for God's own possession. Rather, after God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, then He spiritually places us in Christ, where together with Christ we are made alive, spiritually born again as a child (son) of God. When God chooses us individually based on accepting our faith, that is our election unto salvation.


Defending the faith is the responsibility of every believer, not just theologians or pastors. This is why believers are supposed to be continually growing in grace and knowledge, so that we will be equipped to fulfill that responsibility to the honor of God, and be ready at all times to give an answer to every man who inquires as to the reason why we have such a confident hope and dogmatic expectation for heaven (1 Pe. 3:15).

First, I understand that I am dealing with a unregenerate man. You didn't say much, but you said enough that evidences to me beyond doubt you are unregenerate, sorely confused on many things. You are blinded in your mind by Satan, ignorant of God's righteousness, and are expecting salvation based on deeds of the law. You don't know, therefore, the basic principles of THE Christian faith.

Christ's righteousness imputed and the non-imputation of sins are the only ground of salvation to all who believe. God honors His clear message. All other issues will revolve around and be settled in light of Christ's righteousness. This is why I will never preach a sermon on any topic apart from defining the Gospel and then preaching that topic in light of it.

I’m sure, and it will become obvious to me that you will try to eventually pull me into a debate over "Calvinism." This is a diversion by Satan. I resist all such tactics. This is typical by the enemies of free grace, who are Satan's willing servants and mouthpieces. They typically mistake those of us who believe in free and sovereign grace for "Calvinists," when this is simply not true. Most professing Calvinists are still lost, precisely because, ironically, they do not really believe in free and sovereign grace. We might hold similar doctrines with Calvinists (e.g., unconditional election, particular redemption, etc.), but similarity does not equal sameness. It does not follow that you are a Calvinist because you believe the Gospel. When this happens, I resist this ploy because you can spend all day long debating the five points of Calvinism and never get to the real issue, the Gospel and the ground of salvation. And assuming that I get you to concede to Calvinism apart from the Gospel, the best that I’ve done is to turn you from a lost Arminian into a lost Calvinist, from one false god to but another idol. Calvinism is not the Gospel.

Many confuse the ground of salvation with the attributes of God. The ground of salvation (as we know it) refers to the basis upon which a holy God should accept me as a sinner into heaven, His eternal favor and fellowship. This basis is RIGHTEOUSNESS: perfect satisfaction to God's strict Law and inflexible Justice. No, the GROUND of salvation is NOT the love, grace and mercy of God. Why not? It is because neither the love, nor grace, nor mercy of God is in itself sufficient to save apart from His law satisfied. God's love did not satisfy Law and Justice, but provided a way for this satisfaction to be accomplished. God could love a sinner and yet not be just to save him unless His law were satisfied in his behalf: "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and [therefore] sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn. 4:10; cf. Rom. 3:26; 5:8). Notice that it does not say that God loved us and THEREFORE on that basis saved us, but because He loved us, He sent His Son to establish righteousness for us, and THEN on that basis saved us. God's love is not the ground, but the only CAUSE of salvation. God's grace did not satisfy Law and Justice, but "reigns THROUGH RIGHTEOUSNESS," that is, perfect satisfaction to Law and Justice, which alone is the ground of salvation (Rom. 5:21). God's mercy did not satisfy Law and Justice, but is sought and found, again, based on the satisfaction Christ rendered to God's Law and Justice as our High Priest, Mediator, Substitute, and Surety, who is "passed into the heavens" upon having established righteousness for His people (Heb. 4:16). Every perfection of God's character, including love, grace, and mercy, is magnified and honored based on Christ's righteousness alone.

You have revealed that you believe in salvation conditioned on the sinner:
"But to him that worketh not [that have no conditions to meet in order to attain or maintain any part of salvation, nothing to contribute to the finished work of Christ], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for ['to the receiving of'] righteousness."

Van talks about "forgiveness." Upon what basis does God forgive my sins? Does forgiveness come at the cost of my repentance? Does God forgive me simply because I am sorry, or because I ask Him to forgive me? NO! My repentance is not satisfaction to God's Law. Nothing I do, hope to do, or may be enabled to do satisfies God's law. Forgiveness comes at the cost of the precious blood of Christ!

There is only ONE condition of salvation: RIGHTEOUSNESS, perfect satisfaction to both the precept and the penalty of God's holy Law (Rom. 3:21-26). No sinner, whether saved or lost, can meet this one condition. Yet, a sinner must possess such righteousness to be saved in order for God to be just to justify that sinner (Matt. 5:20). Since no sinner can produce such righteousness by anything he does or abstains from doing in the way of obedience to God's law, this righteousness must be produced by Another, imputed to his person, and received by faith. This is why the Son of God became incarnate, obeyed, suffered, and died, thus satisfying God's Law in His perfect life of obedience to the precept and in His bloody death in payment due unto divine Justice. If at any time we could satisfy Law by our obedience, then to that extent Christ died in vain (Gal. 2:21).

All men and women without exception are sinners, either justified sinners or condemned sinners. No sinner, neither saved sinners nor lost sinners, based on anything that proceeds from his person, his best works and efforts in religion or morality, can meet this one condition of righteousness (Rom. 3:10-18). God's Law is the standard of BOTH sin and holiness. Hence God says that by a sinner's best works of obedience, he can never be saved, because the law only reveals that he falls short of the standard, and is still a sinner (Rom. 3:20). This condition was satisfied by the Lord Jesus Christ in His obedience UNTO death (Phil. 2:5-9). Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe (Rom. 10:4). Otherwise, if God justifies me based on my obedience, and since everything I do, think, or say only reveals that I am still a sinner according to God's strict law, it follows that salvation conditioned on the sinner means that God justifies me based on my sin! This is what Van really believes, and is expecting God to do for him, and doesn't even know it!
 
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grtcr

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Continued:

Romans 4:4-5 defines the principle of grace in opposition to the principle of works. In v. 4, Paul says no reward of any kind can be said to be of grace if it is given to the sinner based on personal works and obedience. It would always be what that sinner had merited or earned, not a gift of grace and mercy, but of debt, an obligation owed to him due to his works. No one would dare think that works of immorality, drunkenness, etc. would recommend us unto God. Van really believes that God owes him salvation at the end of the road based on his sincere works of obedience. Before justifying faith all without exception, even Abraham and David, are ungodly, without the only true God, alienated from God, enemies of God, and spiritual children of the Devil. The very moment that God justifies the believing sinner, that sinner is united to Christ and invested with His robe of righteousness. He is still a sinner, but he is no longer an ungodly, guilty and defiled sinner. He is now reconciled unto God. He is at peace with God and adopted into God's spiritual family. The expression "worketh not" excludes all works of every description by whatever agency under any and all pretenses from the ground of salvation. Notice that truly justified sinners believe ON HIM THAT JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, not the one who worketh. This shows us again that justifying faith understands, believes, and comes to God in His specific character as the God of redemption. Justified sinners know God to be both a just God and a Savior based on the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Sin is transgression of the law (1 Jn. 3:4). Paul says that all men and women without exception, whether saved or lost, are CONTINUALLY falling short (present tense verb in Greek) of the law in their character and conduct (Rom. 3:23). Now, the only reason any of my future sins could possibly cause my justified state to be forfeited (as Van believes) is if my works of obedience to God's law (loving God supremely and loving my neighbor as myself, including my enemies) maintained my justified state. This is works-salvation, salvation conditioned on the sinner, plain and simple. Yet, this is directly contrary to Paul's plain assertions in Rom. 4:5-8! No man, not even pious Mr. Van, loves God supremely nor his neighbor as himself at all times. He must admit this of himself. Yet, that's the standard of God's law. If he can admit to the least degree of improvement in his character and conduct (and he must, else he's a liar, see 1 Jn. 1:8, 10), God cannot justify him based on any condition he meets to any degree at any time. Romans 4:5 makes it clear that based on Christ's righteousness (satisfaction to Law and Justice in both precept and penalty) imputed and received by faith, God will no longer charge the believing sinner with either the guilt or defilement of sin! Wherever God charges righteousness, He will not, because He CANNOT, charge sin. This is a most basic Gospel truth which every regenerate person believes. Hence this is why Paul places these two truths side by side, since the non-imputation of sin follows immediately upon the imputation of righteousness:
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works [apart from any conditions met by the sinner to any degree at any time],
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
If God justifies the UNGODLY, then He does not justify those who meet certain conditions to be justified; but He justifies those who believe that Another met all the conditions God required and who plead THAT alone as the ground of all their entitlement to heaven. The reason I can never be lost again because of my sins is because I now possess by imputation a righteousness and holiness that is unchangeable, perfect, and fully answers the demands of God's Law and Justice. It can never be improved upon nor diminished. Therefore, since righteousness is my ground of justification, it follows that my state of salvation can never be improved upon nor diminished.

Our obedience to God is a vital part of salvation as the fruit and effect of Christ's righteousness imputed, and motivated by the absolute certainties of grace, but is no part of the ground of salvation which alone is Christ's R&H. The fact is that justified sinners have already suffered the full punishment and penalty due unto all their sins, past, present, and future, in the Person of Christ their Representative and Substitute. What Van will eventually imply is that our doctrine of free grace promotes a "license to sin." He wants his sins to condemn him because he wants his good works to attain and maintain his salvation, and he wants my sins to condemn me because he wants my character and conduct to measure up to his standard of holiness and to validate him in his love affair with the covenant of works. If our works could attain and maintain our salvation, then Christ neither really substituted for anybody nor was it necessary that He should do so. What need we have of Christ, if by MY works and efforts I can attain and maintain God's eternal favor? He would do well to learn better Romans 6, one of the most theologically important chapters in the entire Bible. Paul answers him directly, by defending grace with more grace!

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

It is important for us to remember that the objection raised in 6:1 does not come from the outwardly immoral, irreligious and unconcerned sinner. This objection is always raised by moral, dedicated religionists who are doing their best to avoid every recognized sin and obey every known commandment, seeking to establish a righteousness before God, seeking to remove God's wrath and gain His favor based on something other than, or added to, the righteousness of Christ. No one has ever sought to be recommended to God based on immorality, of which we are by nature ashamed. But we all by nature seek and have sought to be recommended to God based on "deeds of the law," of which we are by nature not ashamed. Self-righteous sinners always raise the above objection because they do not really value Christ, His Person, nor His righteousness as the only ground of salvation. They will always speak peace to themselves and others apart from the grace of God in Christ. On the contrary, UNCONDITIONAL GRACE IS THE SUPREME MOTIVE FOR ACCEPTABLE OBEDIENCE. Paul's subject here is the state of justification in which all believers exist by virtue of their oneness with Christ as opposed to their former state of condemnation by virtue of their oneness with Adam. This entire section is designed to give true believers the utmost confidence and assurance of the absolute certainty of their salvation by revealing the particulars concerning their unchangeable state of justification before God which is the direct effect of their union or oneness with Christ.

Notice the following phrases: "live in sin" (v. 2), the "old man," and the "body of sin" (v. 6), "under the law" (v. 14), "servants of sin" (vv. 16,17,20), "free from righteousness" (v. 20). All these phrases describe their previous state of condemnation which was the effect of their previous union with Adam. Notice these phrases: "dead to sin" (vv. 2,11), "free from sin" (vv. 7,18,22), "baptized into His death" (v. 3), "buried and risen with Christ" (v. 4), "under grace" (v. 14), "servants of righteousness" (v. 18), "servants to God" (v. 22). All these phrases describe the state of justification in Christ and the evidences of that state before God. It is impossible for one who is now in a justified state to ever go back to the state of condemnation from which he has been delivered. It is not impossible for him to fall under the power of sin (vv. 12,13), but it is impossible for sin to ever change his state before God.

A. The objection raised (6:1) - The apostle anticipates and so raises this question in order to deny it and to vindicate the Gospel. Satan devises all kinds of slander by which he hopes to discredit the doctrines of grace in the minds of sinners. And since by nature we are completely controlled by self-love, self-righteousness, and religious pride, we love the covenant of works. We love the self-esteem that supposes salvation is conditioned on us and enables us to receive honor and praise from men based on our sufferings and service to the Lord. Natural religion promotes and applauds those things by which we "make a fair show in the flesh," those things by which we distinguish our piety and promote the notion that one sinner is better or more holy than another. These motives of degrees of holiness and degrees of favor with God, these motives of self-esteem and approval from society, along with fear of both temporal and eternal punishment based on sin, and hopes of bigger and better rewards both temporal and eternal based on obedience to God's law is all we know and love by nature. Exclude these motives, and in the minds of sinners by nature, God's law has been destroyed and the flood gates of sin have been opened.


B. The objection answered (6:2) - GOD FORBID! HOW SHALL WE WHO ARE DEAD TO SIN LIVE ANY LONGER THEREIN; i.e., How can we who are JUSTIFIED in the sight of God BASED ON THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST, who are dead to the guilt of sin (sin's condemning power), who are in an unchangeable state of justification based on the unchangeable, eternal righteousness of CHRIST, how can we live in a state of condemnation and guilt and fear? The apostle begins in this verse to defend God's grace against such devilish accusations. We must carefully notice that God the Holy Spirit, by the pen of the Apostle Paul, does not defend grace by even the slightest hint of anything legal or mercenary. He defends grace by revealing more of the absolute certainty of salvation apart from any conditions on the sinner whatsoever. As stated before, this is not an exhortation; IT IS A STATEMENT OF FACT! A justified sinner cannot live in a state of condemnation.
 
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grtcr

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The fact is that the sins of justified sinners cannot condemn him, because his obedience makes up no part of the ground of salvation. Christ was crucified to destroy sin; and, therefore, to free His people, the whole election of grace, from its claims (6:5-7). When He died, they died with Him, not theoretically nor potentially if they meet the conditions of faith (so Van asserts), repentance, and perseverance, but in actual fact. When He arose, they arose with Him, not in their own persons but in His Person representatively. Because of Christ's death on the cross, they are freed from the condemning power of sin IN THIS LIFE, upon believing the Gospel, from henceforth and forever. The "old man" (our former state of condemnation in Adam, not the principle of sin active in our character and conduct), was crucified (put to death) in Christ. And so we may be assured that we shall be glorified (freed from the power, influence, and presence of sin) IN THE LIFE TO COME. It is impossible for believers to be brought back under condemnation, therefore. Their sins CANNOT bring them back under God's wrath, nor can their obedience gain them one more ounce of God's favor. They are justified based solely upon the righteousness AND holiness of Christ imputed and received by faith.

In vv. 8-11, the apostle tells believers that we are to consider ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God in the very same way that Christ Himself is dead to sin and alive unto God. He is saying, "Just as Christ died exclusively to the guilt and defilement of sin (not to its power, presence, or influence) and now lives unto God, consider (or reckon) yourselves to be dead to the guilt and defilement of sin (not to its power, presence, or influence) and alive unto God in Christ." In v. 8-9, Paul says, "We believe" we SHALL live with Him. We SHALL be perfectly conformed to Christ's image, glorified together with Christ, KNOWING, being fully convinced, that His resurrection is God's pledge of our resurrection. "Death [the penalty or wages of sin] hath no more"--This teaches us that death once had dominion over Christ, but NO MORE. Death had dominion over Christ when our sins were imputed to Him, and it held dominion over Him until He made perfect satisfaction to law and justice. This satisfaction was rendered upon His death. Then, death's dominion was forever removed from Him, and from us in His Person as we were represented by Him. This is a great testimony that God's law is no respecter of persons. This Person was God's only begotten, well beloved Son, who, based on His personal character and conduct, was holy, harmless, and undefiled. Yet, when the sins of God's elect were imputed to Him, God's wrath, according to strict law and justice, fell on Him and He died. God's wrath was not removed from Him until law and justice was completely satisfied. This proves that the vital issue in salvation has to do with a righteousness that answers the demands of God's law and justice.

In v. 10, the apostle continues his argument concerning our justification (v. 7) being the effect of Christ dying to the dominion of sin. "He died unto sin"--Here we have the same declaration concerning our Lord as in verse 2 concerning true believers. This confirms that verse 2 speaks only of our being dead to the guilt and defilement of sin and not to its power, presence, or influence in our personal character and conduct. Christ never felt the inward power, presence, or influence of sin and, therefore, could not die unto sin's power, presence, or influence. Christ died to sin once and only once, because He fully atoned for it by His death (Heb. 9:12, 26, 28; 10:12, 14). No one can doubt that Christ "liveth unto God." This doctrine does not deny human responsibility, but encourages it on its proper ground. No sinner is responsible to seek to obey God based on legalism. What are we responsible to do? Whatever God commands of us, that we are responsible to do.

Van would say we deny responsibility? Yet, what are we responsible to do? Are we responsible to seek salvation and serve the Lord based on anything other than the imputed R&H of Christ, based on legal fears and doubts, or are we responsible to plead His R&H alone as our full right and title to all of salvation based on the absolute certainty of final glory in heaven? Clearly, the latter. We do not deny responsibility based on grace, just responsibility based on legalism. Whatever God commands of us, that we are responsible to do. Far from denying human responsibility to be obedient to God, in verse 11 true believers are commanded to enjoy strong consolation by counting themselves to be truly, once and for all, dead to sin (its guilt and defilement) and alive unto God. Believers are constantly commanded to seek to maintain the absolute certainty of salvation in our hearts at all times. Let our hearts be established with grace. So we are responsible to be assured of our salvation, based on the right ground of salvation. By grace we thus ENFORCE godly responsibility.

This is God the Holy Spirit's answer to the charge of licentiousness against the doctrine of salvation by free grace. This blessed truth is what the apostle had been aiming at beginning in verse 2. THE ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY OF SALVATION CONDITIONED ON CHRIST ALONE ACCORDING TO GOD'S PROMISE is in every way consistent with true humility. This truth binds the justified sinner by every conceivable consideration of love and gratitude to serve God in newness of life in spite of all difficulties. This is a debt of love, not of legalism. Preachers can and do compel sinners to appear righteous, but it is impossible for sinners to serve God acceptably based on legal or mercenary grounds or motivated by doubts and fear of punishment.For Van to be promoting legal fears based on a conditional salvation is not humility but religious pride, because it says that Christ did not fulfill all the conditions God required and that He thus died in vain. This is unspeakably wicked blasphemy.

Van, being as he is a stranger to grace, would predictably fail also to discern the vital distinction that God makes between a believer's state and a believer's personal character and conduct. Here is a portion of my latest sermon addressing this issue:

God divides the whole human race into two distinct states: justified or condemned, saved or lost, either entitled to all of salvation based on the R&H of Christ and the non-imputation of sins or else awaiting eternal misery based on anything else. According to God's testimony, the most deadly error of both Jews and Gentiles has always been looking at the actions of men apart from their state, admiring the house instead of inspecting the foundation. Before conversion, we all look upon things that proceed from our character and conduct without any knowledge or regard for our state in God's sight based on perfect satisfaction to God's holy Law. We look at the obedience, sufferings, and sins of our character and conduct as being either good or bad, pleasing to God or deserving of punishment, without knowing an essential truth -- Our state before God determines these issues.

Consider what Christ taught in Matthew 7:17-18 -- "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." He was speaking of false prophets, but the principle applies to all sinners without exception. The "good tree" and the "corrupt tree" are descriptive of a person's state before God. The "corrupt tree," one who is in a state of cursedness based on what proceeds from his person by nature, cannot bring forth "good fruit," or "fruit unto God" (cf. Rom. 7:4). The moral, religious preacher whose works of obedience were exposed as iniquity illustrates the "corrupt tree" or the state of lostness (rf. Matt. 7:21-23).

The "good tree," or the person in a state of justification and entitlement to Heaven itself, cannot bring forth "evil fruit," or "fruit unto death" (cf. Rom. 7:5). This person is still a sinner, and, like David of old, he can commit horrible sins such as lying, adultery, and murder, or like Jacob of old, he can cheat his own daddy out of the blessing, but his sins are not "fruit unto death," meaning that the guilt and defilement of sins which would naturally bring eternal death are not imputed (or charged) to him, and his obedience is counted “fruit unto God.” The “corrupt tree,” or the person in a state of wrath, may have admirable traits of character and conduct, contentment, forgiving spirit, etc., like Esau, and yet BOTH his sins AND his obedience ARE counted “fruit unto death.” This may shock self-righteous religionists, but it is one of the most basic truths of the Gospel message (cf. Ps. 32:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8; 8:31-34; 2 Cor. 5:18-21). It is only shocking to anybody because the true Gospel is so scarcely being preached in our day!

We cannot see these truths savingly before conversion because by nature we are all legalists. We all think that deeds of law, something proceeding from our character and conduct in the way of obedience to God's law, tears of remorse, personal sufferings, repentance, or reformation of life, can in some way gain, maintain, or reestablish us in God's favor and fellowship. We do not know that Christ's righteousness alone attains all this and much more. Before true conversion, before we become submitted to Christ's righteousness, we do not know that such legal and mercenary thoughts are a testimony that we really believe that Christ died in vain (Gal. 2:21)! Legalism is the product of setting false standards concerning saved and lost. God's standard of "lost" is the guilt and defilement of sin imputed (or charged) to our persons! God's standard of "saved" is righteousness imputed (or charged) to our persons!

We are either saved and entitled to all of salvation based on the imputed righteousness of Christ revealed in God's Gospel, or else we are debtors to DO the whole law, precept and penalty (Gal. 5:2-3)! There is no argument that God's people are to seek to be obedient, and are obedient, but obedience itself is not the issue! The issue of life and death is this -- Is my obedience to God's law fruit unto God or fruit unto death? This issue can only be determined by my state before God, and my state can only be revealed by what I am convinced entitles me to salvation, Christ's R&H or anything else!

Those who are in a state of justification and life are judged RIGHT NOW to be righteous and holy, and they are fully entitled to all of salvation based on Christ's righteousness imputed to them. They are still sinners based on their character and conduct which God excludes from the ground of and entitlement to their salvation. They neither love God supremely, nor their neighbor as themselves, nor do they love their enemies (Matt. 5:44), all due to remaining selfishness. So all these sinners, who are in a state of justification and life, are dead to sin, dead to the law, submitted to Christ's righteousness, alive from the dead, and alive unto God, cannot bring forth fruit unto death.

Then finally, Van might say: "It does interest me - if the new birth is unconditional then one would have to argue that the primary cause and reason people will be lost is because God does not redemptively love them." Really? So because God does not redemptively love everybody, this should excuse their sin? Obviously, Van would believe the heresy that God loves eveybody redemptively, and thus wants to save everybody. Why could we not give him the love he wants for his god, then, and just turn it around and say that the primary reason people will be lost is because God's redemptive love for all without exception (the running assumption) was apparently insufficient to provide everything necessary to insure salvation of MOST of the objects of His love, accounting for why multitudes end up in eternal hell? What love is this? No, the reason people remain lost and wind up in hell is THEIR OWN SIN, both Adam's sin imputed and sins personally committed, AND UNBELIEF (Mk. 16:15-16)!

A sinner is regenerated by Holy Spirit when he is quickened or made alive spiritually by the Holy Spirit. This is the first subjective work of the Holy Spirit in God's elect. It is a sovereign work of God the Holy Spirit without the use of any means whereby He in time applies to each one of God's elect in each successive generation what Christ has merited and secured for them. Christ purchased the new birth for all of God's elect.
In the new birth, both legal and moral spiritual death are remedied in the sinner's own person. Legally we come from condemnation to justification based on the righteousness of Christ imputed (charged to our account). This righteousness is the merit of Christ's whole work of redemption for His sheep. It is the "righteousness of God" revealed in the Gospel, and it is the only ground of salvation. Immediately upon imputation of righteousness to our person, even simultaneously, as the fruit and effect of Christ's righteousness, we are quickened by the Spirit of God. This is when the Holy Spirit imparts or gives us a new principle of life and faith, the very life of God which is in Christ. We are made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22). This is the work of the Holy Spirit "in" us.
 
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Continued:

Again, let me provide a portion of my sermon concerning the nature of God's love:

God does not have two kinds of redemptive love, one for the elect which is effectual unto salvation and another for the non-elect which is ineffectual. God has a general love, an indiscriminate humane compassion for all the creatures He has made, so far as to give them an existence, and to preserve them in Being as long as it pleases Him. God has a particular love for the people of His choice, a Love of special Election to Glory, as they were chosen in Christ before time (Eph. 1:4). God's love, whether general or particular, redemptive or not, is always effectual to, and unconditional towards, the sinner. Now compare our doctrine of the nature of God's love with today's misconceptions, specifically of God's redemptive love. The common belief today amongst professing Christians is that God loves everyone equally, or redemptively, and is trying to save everyone. They believe God's love is expressed in sending Christ to make sinners savable if they would just comply and meet the condition of faith. This is the view of God's love promoted by universal notions of Christ's atonement and conditional salvation. Most who believe this agree that the majority of sinners will not comply and perish anyway, so that the majority of the objects of God's redemptive love will be eternally condemned. This is NOT the nature of God's love.

Turn to Rom. 9:10-13. (Read.)

Such representations of God's love mentioned above are opposed to Scripture. The Bible tells us plainly that God does not love everyone equally and without exception. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:13). There was no cause in Jacob for God to love him, but there was every reason for God to hate BOTH Jacob and Esau. Also, the Bible says nothing shall "separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:39). Nothing will separate God's love from the objects of that love. God's love has a goal and an object, and all whom God sets His love upon in election shall participate in the accomplishment of the goal for which His love aims: final glory in heaven and perfect conformity to Christ in body and soul based on His R&H imputed and the non-imputation of sin. Those whom God loves in redemption, and whom He intends to save in Christ, shall be saved!

Specifically, God's love in the redemptive sense is His purpose to glorify Himself by saving guilty, defiled sinners and giving them the whole inheritance of eternal life and glory in heaven based on the righteousness of Christ. This is God's redemptive love for His elect, the ones whom He foreknew, or fore-loved, before the foundation of the world. God's love is the only cause of salvation; it is His purpose to save sinners. When God chose a people before the foundation of the world, He set His love upon them. He conditioned all of their salvation on Christ and determined to send Christ into the world to fulfill all those conditions by establishing an everlasting righteousness of infinite value whereby He could be just and justify the ungodly. God's love is attended with infinite power and inscrutable wisdom to remove all obstacles that would hinder the eternal salvation and final glory of the objects of His redemptive love. His love provides everything necessary that His holiness, justice, and truth demanded for our eternal salvation. His love also provided every means to insure our final glory in Heaven. This kind of love is powerful and effectual toward its objects. This love is in Christ Jesus. This love gives ungodly sinners every reason to trust God and flee to Christ from the wrath to come, and for all of salvation!

God's love is totally undeserved and uninfluenced (see Eph. 2:4). There was nothing in any of the objects of God's love to deserve it. It was just the opposite. Note v. 11 again: “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil...” God's love is exercised towards ungodly idolaters, those upon whom His wrath abides before they are united to Christ by imputation and by faith. We read how that God loved Jacob and hated (fixed His wrath upon, and so rejected) Esau. People are amazed that God could hate Esau. But we should be more amazed that God loved Jacob! There was nothing in either Jacob or Esau to influence God to love either one. Both equally deserved God's wrath based on their personal character and conduct. Why God chose Jacob and not Esau is known only to God. But we know Esau was just as responsible to believe God's promise of salvation in Christ as was Jacob. Yet, Esau rejected God's love revealed in Christ and expressed towards him in the Gospel, and scorned God's glory by despising his birthright.

On the other hand, people have an aversion to seeing God as a God of wrath or one who is capable of hatred. But God's wrath and hatred are as much Divine perfections as His holiness, justice, faithfulness, love, and mercy. This must be so because there is no imperfection in the character of God. God is holy, just, righteous, and good. There is no sin in God, but there would be sin in God if wrath and hatred were absent from God, because His wrath and hatred are expressions of His holiness and justice. Because God is holy, He must hate all that is unholy, and His wrath must be poured out against all sin (Rom. 1:18). God's hatred is His aversion and enmity against all sin and evil. It is the opposite of His love for holiness and truth and righteousness. So it is in God's very nature to hate sin and execute His just wrath against it. What are the objects of His wrath and hatred? -- Idolatry and false religion (Deut. 12:31; 16:22; Isa. 1:14); Sin, wickedness, unrighteousness, ungodliness, evil (Ps. 11:5; Prov. 6:16-19; Zech. 8:17; Rev. 2:6,15); Unbelief (John 3:18, 36). It is impossible for a holy being to love holiness and righteousness and not hate sin and wickedness.

Our love and hate, in contrast with God's, is emotional and the fruit of self-love and self-righteousness. But God's love is an extension of Himself and His holiness. God's hatred is an extension of Himself -- His holiness and justice. God's love demands that He engage Himself on behalf of the objects of His love. Therefore, when God chose His elect in Christ, He engaged every attribute of His character to insure their eternal well-being. This is proven in the fact that He sent Christ into the world to save His elect (John 3:16). Christ came as their Representative and Substitute to fulfill all the conditions of their salvation by establishing a perfect righteousness that enables God to be just and holy while at the same time merciful and gracious towards them. In Christ we see that God's love provided what God's holiness and justice demanded.

God's hatred, on the other hand, demands that He engage Himself in opposition to those who reject Him and His way of salvation. God's hatred is not an emotional hatred like ours. It is the product of Divine justice. God's wrath abides upon all who reject Him and His way of salvation. This is necessary in that God is holy, righteous and true. God always does what is right, and His judgments are always according to truth (Rom. 2:2). "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Gen. 18:25). God must punish sin. He can by no means clear the guilty, and the soul that sins must surely die (Ex. 34:7; Ezek. 18:4, 20). This is so of all sinners without exception. Guilt and sin must be punished unto death either in the sinner's person or in the person of a suitable, God-appointed substitute. If sinners reject Christ and His righteousness, the only God-appointed Substitute and the only ground of forgiveness and peace, then they will experience God's hatred and wrath. Consider again the case of Jacob and Esau, looking at Rom. 9:13 --

Romans 9:13 -- As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Here we are told that God purposed to deliver Jacob from wrath without any contribution from Jacob. Jacob was a sinner in need of a righteousness he could not produce. But God purposed to leave Esau in what Esau himself preferred according to his own self-love and self-righteousness. Esau, like Jacob, was a sinner in need of a righteousness he could not produce. Esau, with Jacob, had all the advantages of instruction in the Gospel, but Esau despised his birthright which typified the coming of the Messiah and salvation based on His righteousness alone. Esau refused to believe the Gospel, and God's justice demands that His wrath abide upon all who refuse to believe the Gospel. There was nothing in Jacob or Esau to deserve or earn God's love. There was everything in Jacob and Esau to deserve and earn God's wrath and hatred. But God in sovereign love and mercy chose Jacob and passed by Esau, not based on anything in them. Why did God choose Jacob and not Esau? We do not know. Only God knows. However, we can and do know that God always does that which is right and just. All we know is that Jacob is an example of undeserved favor, love, and mercy. Esau is an example of a sinner who deserved God's wrath and hatred.
 
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Van

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Hi Grtcr, I am sorry to hear that you have no idea what I am talking about. You are not a mind reader, only the Lord knows whether a person is regenerate or not, certainly not you. You made several statements concerning what you think I believe, but not one of them is valid. You have attacked a straw man, rather than my actual position.

In posts 12, 13, 15, 16, and 17 you posted an avalanche of verbiage without addressing my position. You addressed the topic of judging others, which is non-germane, except in support of you claim to know I an unregenerate. You continue to offer up non-germane verbiage through post 13. Then you say you will start addressing some of my points later.

Now in post 15 you start off by saying since I am unregenerate, I am ignorant and therefore you attempt to dismiss my views by disparaging me personally. Saying I am a "lost Arminian" reveals that you do not understand my non-Calvinist, non-Arminian position at all. Saying I believe in unconditional election reveals that you cannot really read minds, for I believe in conditional election, whoever believes in Him shall not perish.

Next you present the ground of salvation which exactly matches my position posted beforehand in post 11, but seem not to have understood it.

Next you say I believe on a salvation conditioned on the sinner, when my position is salvation conditioned on God's acceptance of our faith in Christ. Faith is not works.

Then you talk about forgiveness and again present my view as posted in post 11.

Next you say salvation is conditioned on righteousness, as in the person must be righteous to be saved. This misses the mark. Salvation is conditioned on faith in Christ, and after God accepts our faith, credits it as righteousness, then He spiritually places us in Him where we are covered with His blood and given the righteousness of God. So you are correct that we cannot come to the Father unless we are righteous, but we are righteous in Christ. So the conditional you are talking about is after we are in Him, and the conditional I am talking about is the basis of being spiritually placed in Him.

Next you repeat that I believe salvation is conditioned on obedience, which is utterly false. Salvation is conditioned upon God's acceptance of our faith in Christ. Paul put it this way, when answering the question "What must I do to be saved?' Paul answered, "Believe in the Lord Jesus."

Then you post that we are not saved by works which is true, but is non-germane because I do not believe we are saved by works. We are saved by grace through faith, and not works of the Law by which no flesh is justified.

Next you say I believe God owes me salvation. This is yet another falsehood in an avalanche of falsehoods. I was a wretched sinner, deserving of eternal punishment, but God chose to give me the gift of salvation.

Next you say I believe once a person is saved by grace through faith, they can forfeit that position in Christ by sinning. Nope, once a person is actually saved, nothing can snatch him or her out of his hand. Once saved, always saved. We are indwelt forever, and therefore we are allowed to do nothing that would forfeit our entry into heaven, but we can forfeit rewards and enter heaven as one escaping from a fire.

Next, Grtcr says I am a stranger to grace. More personal attacks to bolster his unbiblical positions.

And then Grtcr says Van might say this or that. Talk about putting falsehoods in the mouth of another poster. Note that every time this is done, an unbiblical position is attributed to me. For example scripture says that God so loved the world, referring to all mankind, and yet Grtcr has me saying God does not love all mankind. LOL
 
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Van

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And two items more, we are not made alive because we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, we are made alive when we are spiritually placed in Christ, so that together with Christ we are made alive. Then, after we arise a new creation, we are indwelt. Second, God loves the world such that He gave His Son so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. God desires that all men be saved according to His purpose and plan, which is to call mankind with the good news, and then choose those whose faith is credited as righteousness.
 
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