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what makes Paul's letters part of the Bible?

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who/what determined that the letters by Paul should be part of Scripture? He was not even one of the 12 disciples (whereas all the other nt authors are). I could read a book today by a great Christian author, and most likely get more out of it than reading something like romans or philemon. I'm not challenging the letters' wisdom and teaching, but honestly asking what makes it perfect enough to be in the Bible?
and what makes any of the other books, both ot and nt, part of the scriptural canon?
 

IronManMatt

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who/what determined that the letters by Paul should be part of Scripture? He was not even one of the 12 disciples (whereas all the other nt authors are).

God determined that the letters written by Paul should be part of scripture. Paul was an apostle chosen by God.

Ephesians 1:
1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

If you read Acts you will get more on how Jesus chose Paul to replace Judas as the 12th Apostle.

Also not all of the NT authors were Apostles. Luke was not not, James was the brother of Jesus but was not an Apostle.
 
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who/what determined that the letters by Paul should be part of Scripture? He was not even one of the 12 disciples (whereas all the other nt authors are).

God determined that the letters written by Paul should be part of scripture. Paul was an apostle chosen by God.

Ephesians 1:
1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

If you read Acts you will get more on how Jesus chose Paul to replace Judas as the 12th Apostle.

Also not all of the NT authors were Apostles. Luke was not not, James was the brother of Jesus but was not an Apostle.
I read in Acts 1 that Matthias replaced Judas.
But what is the definition of Apostle? And a letter to a church is just a letter to a church. how did God determine that these should be part of Scripture?
 
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Krelian

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Let me see if I can help you in some small way.

Okay, St. Paul was a persecutor of the Church: hated Christians, persecuted saints, watched Stephen die, killed.
His was a unique conversion, but shows what kind of people can be converted, viz. the meanest, most cruel, hateful people (think about that next time politicians are discussing enemy leaders).
Paul was converted by seeing the glory of God.

That alone is enough in my eyes to validate showing what sort of things he said after he was converted.

I know though that that doesn't answer the basis of your question though.
There are two answers to the question of who canonized Paul.

1. It was God.
God had a lot to say about salvation and divine Grace and that sort of thing that would have sounded best coming from the mouth of a converted murderer and Church-persecutor.

2. The Council of Nicea.
There were canon lists being made up already before Nicea, but here is where the canon was officialy set.
I believe that God had his hand in this too though.

So that is the mechanism, but what about the why?

On the both the divine and human levels, it would make sense that, even though prettier and more euphonic Christian writings have come out later they were written mostly on the basis of what was taught through Paul, the Gospels, Peter, John, James, etc.
So it could be said that Paul's books were included to act as precedent to show what is important to the Faith.

Romans is there as the basis for interpreting everything as Grace.
The Corinthian letters reveal how important Church unity is.
Titus, to show that even though Paul talks about Grace he does not think of works as being as bad as some modern, [lazy :)] interpreters say.

In a sort of circular manner though, I suppose that the end of the matter lies in that the Bible shows what Christians believe and Christians believe what the Bible teaches.

Forgive me for any fuzziness or unclarity, I just woke up.
But if you'd like me to elaborate on some idea that I might not have developed enough, just feel free to ask.
 
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IronManMatt

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I read in Acts 1 that Matthias replaced Judas

After Judas died the remaining 11 Apostles decided to find a new Apostle on their own without God’s command or blessing. By casting lots they picked Matthias. Matthias was picked by men and not by God therefore Matthias was never truly one of the 12. God latter chose Paul to replace Judas.

When Paul was in the process of converting from persecuting those who followed Jesus to preaching Jesus, Jesus spoke to His disciple Ananias about Paul.

Acts 9:
10: And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11: And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12: And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13: Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15: But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Paul’s letters are included in the Bible because he spoke with the authority of God.

1 Corinthians 14:
36: What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37: If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
 
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There are two answers to the question of who canonized Paul.

1. It was God.
God had a lot to say about salvation and divine Grace and that sort of thing that would have sounded best coming from the mouth of a converted murderer and Church-persecutor.

2. The Council of Nicea.
There were canon lists being made up already before Nicea, but here is where the canon was officialy set.
I believe that God had his hand in this too though.

To me this looks like one answer - the Council of Nicea. You said it was with God's guidance that the Council made their canonical list. would the Council's decisions still be legitimate if he hadnt? and what about other letters that Paul wrote? I think he wrote several more. what determined that these be left out?

So it could be said that Paul's books were included to act as precedent to show what is important to the Faith.

Romans is there as the basis for interpreting everything as Grace.
The Corinthian letters reveal how important Church unity is.
Titus, to show that even though Paul talks about Grace he does not think of works as being as bad as some modern, [lazy :)] interpreters say.

arent Jesus' words sufficient for teaching us these things? couldnt God have used Paul to guide the early church (which was very new to Christianity and did not have the Gospels) in its beginnings, but not necessarily to us living centuries later (kind of like what the Law is)?
Most of the teachings in the Epistles by Paul are already contained in what Christ said and in the OT. and the rest just seems too culturally and historically specific to the early church. Sorry for going by what I feel, but when I come across things like women not allowed to speak, prophecy, speaking in tongues, and certain gifts for certain people, etc., etc., it all sounds bizarre to me living in today's age.
 
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After Judas died the remaining 11 Apostles decided to find a new Apostle on their own without God’s command or blessing. By casting lots they picked Matthias. Matthias was picked by men and not by God therefore Matthias was never truly one of the 12. God latter chose Paul to replace Judas.

in verses 24-25 they all prayed asking for God's choice beforehand.

Paul’s letters are included in the Bible because he spoke with the authority of God.

1 Corinthians 14:
36: What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37: If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

He was telling the Corinthians to obey certain worshipping procedures and instructions on prophesying during church meetings. And yes he did have the authority of God to tell them this. But I dont see why this would automatically make all his other epistles canonical and applicable to someone living in 2008. And if I'm not mistaken, he had written other letters before even making this statement.
 
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MrGoodbar

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Just a couple notes...

1. There were 12 disciples, representing the reconstituted Israel. Others were considered apostles (like Paul). The words aren't necessarily synonymous.

2. It seems that what you are ultimately looking for is for someone to "prove" that God was speaking through Paul in his letters. Or that God was speaking through any of the NT authors for that matter. In my humble opinion, this is a matter of faith, and no one is going to be able to prove it to you. If you look at the canonization process from a modern "analytical" standpoint, there are going to be holes. There wasn't a light shining down from heaven that illuminated the appropriate texts. It was a process involving humans, power, and politics. Again IMHO, It was either divinely guided, or not, and while I suppose one could entertain other options, it gets awfully messy from there...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Hi all ,
great points in Pauls defense :)
I know He is fulfilling the will of God in His faith and grace witness to the GLORY OF GOD ,,as only God can do , salvation is of God through Jesus Christ whom Saul /Paul was taken prisoner gladly !;)
peace C ..
Paul is Da Man!!!! :amen:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts/kardiaV blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him.

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful and True, and in justice He is judging and is battling.
14 And the armies, the in the heaven, followed to him on horses, white, having been inslipped/dressed linen, white, clean,
Zech 14:5 And you flee ravine of mountains, that he shall touch ravine of mountains to 'Atsel. And you flee as which you fled from before the earthquake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes, YHWH my Elohiym, all of holy-ones with You.
 
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Chickapee

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Paul is Da Man!!!! :amen:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts/kardiaV blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him.

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful and True, and in justice He is judging and is battling.
14 And the armies, the in the heaven, followed to him on horses, white, having been inslipped/dressed linen, white, clean,
Could not agree with you more Bro Lamb ! :)

and in zech 14:5 ,funny we had a 5.2 earthquake today in our area [5 states] with after shock of 4.2

peace bro C
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Could not agree with you more Bro Lamb ! :)

and in zech 14:5 ,funny we had a 5.2 earthquake today in our area [5 states] with after shock of 4.2

peace bro C
A relative told me about that in an email and since she believes in the future "rapture" of course she feels the End is near.
Austin, Tx sits on a fault line also and I wish I had a helicopter to get in to lift myself way from the Earthquake when it hit. :)

Haggai 2:6 That thus He says, YHWH of Hosts: "Yet one little, she, and I am quaking/quake/07493 ra`ash the heavens and the land, and the sea, and the dry", [Hebrew 12:26]

Ezekiel 38:19 "And in My zeal, in fire of rage of Me, I speak: If not in day, the-that, shall become a quaking/07494 ra`ash, great, on ground/0127 'adamah of Israel"?

Matt 21:10 And of entering Him into Jerusalem, is moved/shaken/eseisqh <4579> all the city saying, `Who-any is this?'

Matt 24:7 "For shall be being roused nation upon nation, and kingdom upon kingdom. And shall be famines/limoi <3042>, pestilences/loimoi <3061>, and quakes/seismoi <4578> according places.

Luke 21:11 Quakes/seismoi <4578> besides great according places and famines and pestilences shall be fearfuls besides and/even signs from heaven signs great shall be.
Hebrews 12:26 Whose the voice the land shook then, now yet he has promised saying 'still once I shall be quaking/seiw <4579> (5719) not only the Land/ghn <1093> but also the heaven/ouranon <3772>. [Hagg 2:6]
 
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2. It seems that what you are ultimately looking for is for someone to "prove" that God was speaking through Paul in his letters. Or that God was speaking through any of the NT authors for that matter. In my humble opinion, this is a matter of faith, and no one is going to be able to prove it to you. If you look at the canonization process from a modern "analytical" standpoint, there are going to be holes. There wasn't a light shining down from heaven that illuminated the appropriate texts. It was a process involving humans, power, and politics. Again IMHO, It was either divinely guided, or not, and while I suppose one could entertain other options, it gets awfully messy from there...

Yes I suppose this is what I'm looking for. I have this mentality of accepting things faith together with reason. I tell myself surely they're inspired. The Bible is too powerful and too firmly established throughout the world to be doubted. But then I ask myself how it came to be organized into its current selection of literature...and from there it can get messy like you said.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yes I suppose this is what I'm looking for. I have this mentality of accepting things faith together with reason. I tell myself surely they're inspired. The Bible is too powerful and too firmly established throughout the world to be doubted. But then I ask myself how it came to be organized into its current selection of literature...and from there it can get messy like you said.
Mainly on the Eschatology board. If you are confused before you go to it, I gurantee you will be even more confused when you come out!! ^_^

http://christianforums.com/f14-eschatology.html
 
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Chickapee

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very good words, Mr Goodbar ,with sound advice

way to gooooo Little Lamb , I too am thanking God for an END ..
SINCE JESUS CHRIST IS THE END :) waiting anxiously Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth

1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

peace C
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Because Paul was a scholar of Mosaic law, "a Jew of the Jews", he was able to explain the change in the law. He was the bridge of knowledge between the covenants. Without his letters to the Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews, in particular, we wouldn't understand a lot of stuff.

Once you study and understand Paul's letters you know why they are in the canon.

owg
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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very good words, Mr Goodbar ,with sound advice

way to gooooo Little Lamb , I too am thanking God for an END ..
SINCE JESUS CHRIST IS THE END :) waiting anxiously Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth

1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

peace C
:kiss: One of my favorite veses

[Tex-Rec] 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5Revelation 19:11.]

Zech 14:5 And you flee ravine of mountains, that he shall touch ravine of mountains to 'Atsel. And you flee as which you fled from before the earthquake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes, YHWH my Elohiym, all of holy-ones with You.
 
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beamishboy

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I have no problem with Paul's epistles being in the canon. His epistles were accepted by the early church and they form the backbone of our faith.

My real problem is Hebrews. It only got into the canon because of an ERROR. It was thought to be a part of the Pauline Corpus for a long time. When it was subsequently discovered that the Pauline Corpus should have only 13 epistles and Hebrews was out, Hebrews was still retained int the Canon although it was considered an anonymous epistle.

Scholars today are certain Hebrews is not by Paul. No serious theologian ever thinks of Hebrews as Pauline any more. Yet it is in the canon.
 
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Chickapee

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:kiss: One of my favorite veses

[Tex-Rec] 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5Revelation 19:11.]

Zech 14:5 And you flee ravine of mountains, that he shall touch ravine of mountains to 'Atsel. And you flee as which you fled from before the earthquake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes, YHWH my Elohiym, all of holy-ones with You.
wow !! :) Cool connections bro Lamb ! Gods Word is awesome!! peace ..C
 
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