What makes a pagan 'pagan?'

The one thing all denominations have in common be it Pagan, Catholic, or Protestant is the angry god. The pagans sacrifice to their gods in order to please them. The Catholics and Protestants sacrifice Christ in the same manner. There just may be another reason that man died at Calvary.

scottSTANLEY

Vaudois said:

a pagan who knows zip about manna at all.

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So what do you know about Manna!?! im curious

IT wasn't the devil that killed Jesus It was HIS last and final parable to show the world that HE was who He said HE was. Don't you think he could have broken free of HIS bonds and broke free of the Romans. Jesus needed to die so you and me could live. Can i get an AMEN .....AMEN ....... In the movie Exorcism of Emily rose they have her speaking LAtin and the Devil talking saying he was in Judas and others. I say it's holly wood BS.

God can do more in one moment by His Spirit than we can with our own labor in a life time. The word of His grace is manna to the believing soul. The precious promises of God are food to the hungry soul. We can experienced today the promise "They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures."

payattention said:

In another thread the concepts of idols and pagans were introduced as concepts that distinguish between Christians and others. What do we really mean by those concepts? Do we truly understand them?

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dictionary says pagan: noun from: 1. a person who is not a christian, Moslem, or Jew; heathen 2. one who has no religion 3. a nonchristian 4. a hedonist. adj form: 1. not christian, moslem, or jewish 2. not religious; heathen

and in case you need to know heathen, dictionary says : 1.a. one who belongs to a tribe or nation that does not ackowledge the God of Judaism, christianity, or Islam. b. such persons collectively, the unconverted 2.a. one who is regarded as irreligious or uncivilized

basically nonchristian, nonjew, nonmuslim,

we are all humans though, treat your neighbor as you want to be treated

Well, having once been a very devout pagan I can see that the most important aspect has been entirely overlooked in this discussion. That being sin and our Saviour.

A pagan sees things in terms of relativity - not absolutes as we do in Christianity. A pagan doesn't see sin as being a real thing - as such the pagan feels not need for a Saviour. The concept of sin is foreign to them. And since, in their eyes, there is no sin then that means there is no need for confession, no need for repentence, no need of forgiveness, and of course no need of a Saviour. In this regard the pagan is quite ignorant.

It has been said that God winks at our times of ignorance, and I believe that to do true. BUT, if one isn't even seeking the truth, not even trying to become non-ignorant, then I don't think God is so willing to wink at that for there is a difference between being ignorant by accident and being ignorant on purpose.
2 Peter 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

In this day and age, the "information age", there is little to no reason for someone to be ignorant of Christ. There is an over abundance (in the USA at least) of Bibles, books, audios, videos, missionaries, seminars, churches, and the Internet for anyone who wishes to learn of Christ to be able to do so. If they aren't searching for the truth of Christ then they are willingly ignorant - and I know hundreds that fit this description.

Having been a pagan (Wiccan to be precise) for a good part of my adult life I can tell you first-hand that I am definitely better off, and more enlightened, in my walk with Christ than any pagan could hope to be. Now, don't get me wrong - there are a lot of pagans that are very sincere in their beliefs and worship with all of their hearts. That is not the question however. One can be sincere and be sincerely wrong.

I could go on and on about this, and if any have questions to this I'll be more than happy to elaborate. But make no mistake my brothers and sisters, we should be trying to bring those involved in paganism to the Lord Christ - they are lost and don't even know it - they are sick with the disease of sin and don't even know it nor the cure for it. I think it much greater to sin to sit back and do nothing and allow those good people (for most of them are sertainly that) to perish. We do them no favor by allowing them to stay in the dark.

Palehorse what you speak of is "emancipation." God has asked us to emancipate our brothers and sisters who still believe they are slaves.... they have been freed but don't know it or don't believe it....

Of course that is different from knowing and rejecting the offer... that's a whole different thread.... but I digress...

StormyOne said:

Palehorse what you speak of is "emancipation." God has asked us to emancipate our brothers and sisters who still believe they are slaves.... they have been freed but don't know it or don't believe it....

Of course that is different from knowing and rejecting the offer... that's a whole different thread.... but I digress...

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Thank you Stormy for illustrating the Christian ignorance of this subject. While I know what "emancipation" is that is most certainly not what I was talking about for pagans do not believe they are slaves - in fact they see it the other way around if anything.

Let me see if I can illuminate this subject a bit for the benefit of all. Pagans see us, all Christians, as being under the bondage of organized religion, the bondage of a not-all-loving God, the bondage of believing in man-made concepts, and the bondage of a erred "rule book" (the Bible) that was written as a means for those in power to control the masses. While most pagans would probably not reveal those perspectives they have regarding Christianity to the general public that is in fact the concensus. As such, they want nothing to do with Christianity because in their system of faith/beliefs none of the above exist. Furthermore, since there is no sin (in their view of course), they (Wiccans in particular) are the ones who are free as long as they follow the Rede. Since they live in a world where there are no absolutes (for everything is "relative") they have the perspective that no one can judge them or what they do - not even God (or their Goddess).

Most pagans are familar with Christ's offer of salvation - they just don't believe in Christ. They don't believe He was incarnated as an actual person on this earth nor do they believe He is our Saviour...remember, they don't need a Saviour for there is no sin or Satan to be saved from (for all of those things are man-made constructs). Also, since many of them are avid readers, quite a few have read the Bible - but guess what - when they compare what they read in the scriptures to mainstream Christianity they can only conclude one thing - that Christians (as a whole) are hypocrits. As such, how are you going to lead them to Christ? How are you going to even approach them with the subject?

My point is that in this thread there has been talk about pagans and whether or not to convert them - yet (and no offense meant to anyone) the talk is coming from uneducated opinions. The Bible tells us that we need to at least try to spread the Gospel to them, we aren't the position to decide if we should or not - we have a commision set forth by God. But what is striking to me, based upon what I've read thus far, is we (as Christians) don't have the first idea on how to go about doing it.

You missed the point... the good news of the gospel is that Jesus has freed you... setting one free is emancipation.... our minds have been enslaved, it may vary what the enslavement is, atheism, the occult, nationalism, ethnocentrism, etc, but we all prior to Christ are enslaved.... Christ frees our minds... to me that is emancipation.....

as for my christian ignorance, for part of my life I was raised by an aunt who was a practicing medium and deep into astrology, while not familar with your background, I am aware of people who have dabbled in it... to me it is still a mind enslaved...

payattention said:

In another thread the concepts of idols and pagans were introduced as concepts that distinguish between Christians and others. What do we really mean by those concepts? Do we truly understand them?

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From what I observe here, the OP by payattention DOES NOT in any way suggest anything about converting pagans or anyone else. There are two simple questions asked "What do we really mean by those concepts? and Do we truly understand them?"

So much gets lost in the point/purpose of a post when one starts adding to or taking away from what was actually stated in said post. Sadly, once the sidetracking begins it seems to take on a life of it's own. Please, we, as adults, can make a better effort to avoid doing that.

Peace

StormyOne said:

You missed the point... the good news of the gospel is that Jesus has freed you... setting one free is emancipation.... our minds have been enslaved, it may vary what the enslavement is, atheism, the occult, nationalism, ethnocentrism, etc, but we all prior to Christ are enslaved.... Christ frees our minds... to me that is emancipation.....

as for my christian ignorance, for part of my life I was raised by an aunt who was a practicing medium and deep into astrology, while not familar with your background, I am aware of people who have dabbled in it... to me it is still a mind enslaved...

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Oh, their minds are enslaved - no argument from me on that point. My point is that how do you reveal to the slave that they are indeed slaves, and not free like we are, when the slave sees us as the slaves. Unless we understand their mind-set and the reasons why they believe the way they do we (as Christians) don't stand a chance of helping any of them.

Seraph1m said:

From what I observe here, the OP by payattention DOES NOT in any way suggest anything about converting pagans or anyone else. There are two simple questions asked "What do we really mean by those concepts? and Do we truly understand them?"

So much gets lost in the point/purpose of a post when one starts adding to or taking away from what was actually stated in said post. Sadly, once the sidetracking begins it seems to take on a life of it's own. Please, we, as adults, can make a better effort to avoid doing that.

Peace

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Sometimes we forget that just because we called ourselves or were called a certain thing does not mean that we are experts on what that thing is.

So, what is it that gives us the right to call any person a pagan?

SnowBird77 said:

Sometimes we forget that just because we called ourselves or were called a certain thing does not mean that we are experts on what that thing is.

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I agree - for there in no one on earth that can claim to be an expert on the entire body of pagans; their groups, covens, & traditions (as used in the proper sense) are too varied for any one book or one person to classify in any real detail. The best one can do is, when speaking of them, do so using generic and universal terms. When I was Wiccan I was what was called a "solitary eclectic", functionally meaning that I didn't adhere to the tenets of any one tradition but rather studied a wide variety of traditions and beliefs, incorporating what I thought was truth into my own personal belief system. This is a very common practice in Wicca and is one of the main reasons why no one can truly be an expert,

So, what is it that gives us the right to call any person a pagan?

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First, we must understand that the word "pagan" is not a derogatory word - even though that is how it is understood when used in Christian cultures. Wikipedia, a large online encyclopedia defines "pagan" in the following manner:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan
A person of different beliefs than yourself.
A believer in Paganism or Neopaganism.
One who follows a religion other than Christianity, Islam or Judaism or who does not worship the God of Abraham. Such usage, while traditional in the above three religions, may be considered derogatory. (See paganism).
But this page provides a much better etymology (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism )

The term pagan is from Latin paganus, an adjective originally meaning "rural", "rustic" or "of the country". As a noun, paganus was used to mean "country dweller, villager". "Peasant" is a cognate, via Old French paisent. C. f. Harry Thurston Peck, Harper's Dictionary of Classical Antiquity (1897) [1].

In its distant origins, these usages derived from pagus, "province, countryside", earlier "something stuck in the ground", as a landmark, cognate to Greek πάγος "rocky hill". The root pag- means "fixed" and is also the source of the words "page", "pale" (stake), and "pole", as well as "pact" and "peace". Later, through metaphorical use, paganus came to mean 'rural district, village' and 'country dweller' and, as the Roman Empire declined into military autocracy and anarchy, in the 4th and 5th centuries it came to mean "civilian", in a sense parallel to the English usage "the locals". It was only after the Roman introduction of serfdom, in which agricultural workers were legally bound to the land (see Serf), that it began to have negative connotations, and imply the simple ancient religion of country people, which Virgil had mentioned respectfully in Georgics. Like its approximate synonym heathen (see below), it was adopted by Middle English-speaking Christians as a slur to refer to those too rustic to embrace Christianity.

Neoplatonists in the Early Christian church attempted to Christianize the values of sophisticated pagans such as Plato and Virgil. This had some influence among the literate class, but did little to counter the more general prejudice expressed in "pagan".

So, the word actually has its origins in the very benign definition as being "a country dweller or villager" and when one looks at the history one finds this definition to be accurate. The word "heathen" is no different for it merely means "one who lives on the heath (uncultivated land)".

So, to answer the question - what gives us the right to call someone a pagan? Simple, someone who does not adhere to beliefs that are Christian, Islamic, or Jewish are, by definition, pagan. If one wishes to add a negative connotation to the word then they do so outside of the proper definition. I will say this however, when I was pagan I didn't see it being a negative word - on the contrary, I saw it as a badge of distinction and pride. Many of my pagan friends saw it in like manner (these folks were of the "neopagan" variety - those who adhere to other beliefs (such as Hindus or Taoism) may not agree).

interesting discussion.....

payattention said:

In another thread the concepts of idols and pagans were introduced as concepts that distinguish between Christians and others. What do we really mean by those concepts? Do we truly understand them?

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Apparently not.

"In the Latin-speaking Western Roman Empire of the newly Christianizing Roman Empire, Koine Greek became associated with the traditional polytheistic religion of Ancient Greece and was regarded as a foreign language (lingua peregrina) in the west.[25] By the latter half of the 4th century in the Greek-speaking Eastern Empire, pagans were—paradoxically—most commonly called Hellenes (Ἕλληνες, lit. "Greeks") The word has almost entirely ceased being used in a cultural sense.[26][27] It retained that meaning for roughly the first millennium of Christianity.
This was influenced by Christianity's early members, who were Jewish. The Jews of the time distinguished themselves from foreigners according to religion rather than ethno-cultural standards, and early Jewish Christians would have done the same. Since Hellenic culture was the dominant pagan culture in the Roman east, they referred to pagans as Hellenes."--wikipedia, paganism

Seraph1m said:

So much gets lost in the point/purpose of a post when one starts adding to or taking away from what was actually stated in said post. Sadly, once the sidetracking begins it seems to take on a life of it's own. Please, we, as adults, can make a better effort to avoid doing that.

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Amen