In another thread the concepts of idols and pagans were introduced as concepts that distinguish between Christians and others. What do we really mean by those concepts? Do we truly understand them?
What makes a pagan 'pagan?'
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Mmmmm...perhaps too simple; too broad of a brush. I am not a Calvinist, Pretorist or Serbian Orthodox prelate...but I can't call these folks "idol worshipping pagans"... Can you?
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I suggest we skip the Webster's definition and look at the Word and SOP.
Ahaziah, king of Israel was a prime example of a turning from God to pagan idols:
"The Hebrews were the only nation favored with a knowledge of the true God. When the king of Israel sent to inquire of a pagan oracle, he proclaimed to the heathen that he had more confidence in their idols than in the God of his people, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. In the same manner do those who profess to have a knowledge of God's word dishonor Him when they turn from the source of strength and wisdom, to ask help or counsel from the powers of darkness. If God's wrath was kindled by such a course on the part of a wicked, idolatrous king, how must He regard a similar course pursued by those who profess to be His servants?" {CTBH 112.2}
True paganism has no mute idols and "oracles", even today.
But before we start this talk: has anyone else seen a true pagan idol, been to a heathen temple, or is this an abstract thread?
There may not be many opportunities in the West, or "call" to bring the Gospel to heathens where you are. But one never knows unless one asks, right?
Ahaziah, king of Israel was a prime example of a turning from God to pagan idols:
"The Hebrews were the only nation favored with a knowledge of the true God. When the king of Israel sent to inquire of a pagan oracle, he proclaimed to the heathen that he had more confidence in their idols than in the God of his people, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. In the same manner do those who profess to have a knowledge of God's word dishonor Him when they turn from the source of strength and wisdom, to ask help or counsel from the powers of darkness. If God's wrath was kindled by such a course on the part of a wicked, idolatrous king, how must He regard a similar course pursued by those who profess to be His servants?" {CTBH 112.2}
True paganism has no mute idols and "oracles", even today.
But before we start this talk: has anyone else seen a true pagan idol, been to a heathen temple, or is this an abstract thread?
There may not be many opportunities in the West, or "call" to bring the Gospel to heathens where you are. But one never knows unless one asks, right?
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Well......I don't see that "I" convert anyone; that's the Holy Spirit's job.
And I don't hold that Christ's Last Message of Mercy is a "belief system", a philosophy, a creed or a static type of theological machinery at all.
I doubt if any type of fellow Christian would appreciate being considered "pagans" by SDAs, and I doubt this is actually what you seemed to be saying...right?:o
And I don't hold that Christ's Last Message of Mercy is a "belief system", a philosophy, a creed or a static type of theological machinery at all.
I doubt if any type of fellow Christian would appreciate being considered "pagans" by SDAs, and I doubt this is actually what you seemed to be saying...right?:o
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That is indeed what I am saying..... if as an sda I meet you and though you are christian, I believe you need to join my church, then either I don't believe you are christian, or I believe you are in error.... either way, I don't accept your belief system, which while I haven't said it, I am treating you as a..... pagan.....Vaudois said:
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Do a Google search with the phrase "the word pagan" and you will quickly see that it is a toss-up between polytheism and witchcraft/occult as definitions.
I agree: and suggest that this is the best basis for the word today. Granted, in Victorian times, "heathen", "pagan" and the like had more of an infidel, atheistic tint. But not now.
Spiritualism is the root of paganism and polytheism. There are billions more pagans in the world now than Protestant Christians of all flavours.
I agree: and suggest that this is the best basis for the word today. Granted, in Victorian times, "heathen", "pagan" and the like had more of an infidel, atheistic tint. But not now.
Spiritualism is the root of paganism and polytheism. There are billions more pagans in the world now than Protestant Christians of all flavours.
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( I sure hope you are being rhetorical, Stormy One)
I see quite bit of difference between an ill-informed or un-informed Christian and a pagan. If you treat them the same, you are probably not bring very many of either into "your" church, belief system, or even your front porch!
Is this about "Christian Cannibals" and "sheep stealing"?? If so, I think may points were not looked at or written well. Let me know.
I see quite bit of difference between an ill-informed or un-informed Christian and a pagan. If you treat them the same, you are probably not bring very many of either into "your" church, belief system, or even your front porch!
Is this about "Christian Cannibals" and "sheep stealing"?? If so, I think may points were not looked at or written well. Let me know.
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I understand your points Vaudois, and I understand the significant difference between spiritualistic paganism and christians who believe differently than adventists. My point was and is, do we, have we, treated those christians who don't believe as we do as pagans in the sense that we feel they need to give up their beliefs and accept ours? So in that sense my analogies have been rhetorical....Vaudois said:
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But, what is the difference between a pagan God and the false view of the true God held by Christians?StormyOne said:
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H
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payattention said:
What?! There is no misconception of the living God.
... is there?
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The real time great Controversy is all about misconceptions about God. All divisions within professing christianity can be traced back to false concepts about God.
Paganism is the wholesale buying into Satan's definitions and "belief system", whether one is born into that system or adopts it.
A Balinese who placates demons to buy merit in the afterlife for his ancestors is no less confused about the true God than a _______(fill in your choice of denomination) Harvard professor who weekly goes to his dead wive's gravesite and "talks with her".
However the access to Bible Facts about God are light-years apart.
Paganism is the wholesale buying into Satan's definitions and "belief system", whether one is born into that system or adopts it.
A Balinese who placates demons to buy merit in the afterlife for his ancestors is no less confused about the true God than a _______(fill in your choice of denomination) Harvard professor who weekly goes to his dead wive's gravesite and "talks with her".
However the access to Bible Facts about God are light-years apart.
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Or a Christian who believes that human rescuers are more effective at rescue than God is. We all have our own caricatures of Him. I don't think it is very wise to concentrate on the fact that we believe our caricature is better.Vaudois said:
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I certainly agree with God being the Rescuer, not us. And, naturally we-that-have-been-rescued will have different understandings on Him, in small ways, yet we have options and openings through the Spirit's enlightment through the Word and SOP that neither pagan nor Harvard Professor could ever imagine.....unless they are rescued.
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That's an assumption you are making and you can't verify it until the Second Coming, at which point you won't even remember to verify it. It just won't be important.Vaudois said:
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How is it that you see that see pagans and mis-informed professed christians are on equal footing (as to knowing Him) with those that are lead by the Lord?
Are you saying that those in darkness know as much as those that are not?
Are you saying that you personally knew everything you now know about God now, even before you were converted by Him?
Are you saying that those in darkness know as much as those that are not?
Are you saying that you personally knew everything you now know about God now, even before you were converted by Him?
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