What keeps believers saved?

[Telrunya]

While I agree that faith is an integral part of the believer's life, the verse you quote doesn't say that we are saved by faith. It says "it is by grace you have been saved..."

Wouldn't you say that it is more accurate to acknowledge that faith is the vehicle through which God delivers unto us His grace which saves? Or do you see it differently?

God bless

Always good questions from you. Faith and grace are both gifts from God. It is God's grace that saves us through the faith He gives us to turn to Him. Here's a gift. Here is something that empowers you to take that gift, type thing.

 

[Reformationist]

Thank you, Reformationist.

My pleasure.

Yes, it is God's grace. It's what God did for us, not what we done for ourselves.

Absolutely.

But could you explain to me the passage then, please?

Sure. The passage you cite from Ephesians is simply stating that God's gift of salvation is exclusively the work of God and it is not based on anything you've done or will do, nor is it based on any trait in you. It is strictly the product of God's mercy in accounting you righteous by reckoning the meritorious works of Christ as your own. The faith, which also is a gracious gift of God, is simply the means by which God has ordained to transmit the saving effects of Christ's work to those whom He graciously gives it.

Hope that helps.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Always good questions from you.

Thank you. That is very kind of you.

Faith and grace are both gifts from God.

I agree. Are they gifts that God gives to all people?

It is God's grace that saves us through the faith He gives us to turn to Him. Here's a gift. Here is something that empowers you to take that gift, type thing.

Do these gifts always cause someone to turn to Him?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Telrunya]

Thank you. That is very kind of you.



I agree. Are they gifts that God gives to all people?

Well He offers it to all people. He isn't willing that any should be lost.

Do these gifts always cause someone to turn to Him?

Thanks,
God bless

If only they would but sadly many recieve the knock and dont answer the door.

 

[Reformationist]

Well He offers it to all people.

So God makes an offer to give His grace and the gift of faith to all people and yet only some people accept, is that your position? If so, why do some accept and some don't? If your answer is simply that some accept because they want to accept while others decline because they want to decline, would you please explain why some people want His grace and faith while others do not?

He isn't willing that any should be lost.

And you base that on what, 2 Peter 3:9? If so, what does it mean to you that the Lord is "not willing that any should be lost?"

If only they would but sadly many recieve the knock and dont answer the door.

So the efficacy of God's knock to cause someone to turn to Him is regulated by whether the individual "answers the door?"

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Quickened]

Yes, that did help a bunch, Reformationist. Thank you!

I'm glad my friend showed me this place. I like being around other Christians.

 

[Reformationist]

Yes, that did help a bunch, Reformationist. Thank you!

You're welcome.

I'm glad my friend showed me this place. I like being around other Christians.

We're glad too. We like having you around.

God bless

 

[Quickened]

Thanks!

You know, I've been reading some of your questions now, and I thought to myself, "This guy is good at debating." Perhaps I can learn a bit more here. *spooky music* Dun dun dun!

Edit: It'd probably be better to say that you're more knowledgeable.

 

[Reformationist]

Thanks!

You know, I've been reading some of your questions now, and I thought to myself, "This guy is good at debating." Perhaps I can learn a bit more here. *spooky music* Dun dun dun!

LOL! Well, I appreciate the compliment but I wish I wasn't such a debator. Despite how it may seem much of the time, my goal these conversations is much the same as many other posters on this MB, which is to incite some stimulating conversation with fellow believers that helps us all to have a more comprehensive understanding of the One we worship. Far too often the people I run into on this MB, Christian and non-Christian alike, have beliefs that are not actually based on what the Bible truly says but, rather, a watered down, man-centered version that does nothing more than tickle ears of the self-righteous. My advice to you is to ensure that you are always seeking to align yourself with the Lord and His revelation than with fitting into the mainstream. The mainstream is far too often waaaay off in their thinking.

Edit: It'd probably be better to say that you're more knowledgeable.

It's cool. Again, I appreciate the encouragement and hope to be of assistance to you whenever you need it. And, if possible, I pray that I can learn from you as well.

God bless

 

[Telrunya]

So God makes an offer to give His grace and the gift of faith to all people and yet only some people accept, is that your position? If so, why do some accept and some don't? If your answer is simply that some accept because they want to accept while others decline because they want to decline, would you please explain why some people want His grace and faith while others do not?

Yes, simply put some want to accept and others dont, because to accept we must admit that we aren't in control and the world does not revolve around us. We have to start living for other people instead of ourselves. It's that old sinfull nature that doesn't want to let go.

And you base that on what, 2 Peter 3:9? If so, what does it mean to you that the Lord is "not willing that any should be lost?"

To me it means that He loves us all equally and He isn't going to let anyone get by without making a choice to love Him or deny Him. He's going to give them every oppertunity to turn to Him for their entire lives.

So the efficacy of God's knock to cause someone to turn to Him is regulated by whether the individual "answers the door?"

Love without choice is meaningless. We would be robots and thats not what God wanted so He gave us free will. He wants us all to love Him, but He isn't going to force us. He knocks and offers grace and mercy, it then becomes our choice to let Him in and accept the gifts He offers.

Keep me thinking Brother. (1 Thes. 5:21) We should never be comfortable with our answers but continually be studying and asking. God Bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Yes, simply put some want to accept and others dont, because to accept we must admit that we aren't in control and the world does not revolve around us. We have to start living for other people instead of ourselves. It's that old sinfull nature that doesn't want to let go.

So the ones who realize that they aren't in control and that the world doesn't revolve around them and that they have to live for others are what, smarter, more holy, less prideful? Why do they realize it when those who never embrace the Lord don't?

To me it means that He loves us all equally and He isn't going to let anyone get by without making a choice to love Him or deny Him. He's going to give them every oppertunity to turn to Him for their entire lives.

Ummm..with all due respect Telrunya, man's choice to love or deny Him isn't even mentioned in that passage. It says that GOD is not willing that any should parish. I would say that it is imperative to avoid isolating this passage from context if we wish to have a proper understanding of what Peter is saying. We need to ask ourselves which of the following Peter is proclaiming:

2 Peter 3:9 (universal application)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any (person without exception) should perish but that all (people without exception) should come to repentance.

*bolded additions are mine

Or, in this manner:

2 Peter 3:9 (limited application)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any (of us) should perish but that all (of us) should come to repentance.

*bolded additions are mine

There are some very important issues at the heart of the Gospel here. To whom does the Lord make the promise? Toward whom/to whose benefit is the Lord longsuffering? What does it mean that God is not willing that any should perish? What does it mean that the Lord wills that someone should come to repentance?

Care to address any of those?

Love without choice is meaningless. We would be robots and thats not what God wanted so He gave us free will. He wants us all to love Him, but He isn't going to force us. He knocks and offers grace and mercy, it then becomes our choice to let Him in and accept the gifts He offers.

First, who is purporting that man is a robot or that he doesn't make a choice? Second, what you've said here clearly indicates that the efficacy of the Lord's offer is subjegated to whether the recipient opens the door. That means that God, who sovereignly intends for His "offer" to bring someone to salvation is impotent to do so unless they agree to it. Additionally, the logical end to what you've stated here is that those who are saved are masters of their destiny and their choice is the causal agent in determining their salvation. Not one iota of such a belief is found anywhere in Scripture.

As you didn't answer my question, I'll ask it again, "Is the efficacy of God's knock to cause someone to turn to Him regulated by whether the individual answers the door?"

Keep me thinking Brother. (1 Thes. 5:21) We should never be comfortable with our answers but continually be studying and asking. God Bless.

Doing my best. I look forward to your response.

God bless

 

[Amongst the Flock]

Read James 2:14-26

It talks about faith and deeds and how the two form into 1.

 

[Reformationist]

Read James 2:14-26

It talks about faith and deeds and how the two form into 1.

Umm...who are you talking to?

 

[Telrunya]

So the ones who realize that they aren't in control and that the world doesn't revolve around them and that they have to live for others are what, smarter, more holy, less prideful? Why do they realize it when those who never embrace the Lord don't?



Ummm..with all due respect Telrunya, man's choice to love or deny Him isn't even mentioned in that passage. It says that GOD is not willing that any should parish. I would say that it is imperative to avoid isolating this passage from context if we wish to have a proper understanding of what Peter is saying. We need to ask ourselves which of the following Peter is proclaiming:

2 Peter 3:9 (universal application)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any (person without exception) should perish but that all (people without exception) should come to repentance.

*bolded additions are mine

Or, in this manner:

2 Peter 3:9 (limited application)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any (of us) should perish but that all (of us) should come to repentance.

*bolded additions are mine

There are some very important issues at the heart of the Gospel here. To whom does the Lord make the promise? Toward whom/to whose benefit is the Lord longsuffering? What does it mean that God is not willing that any should perish? What does it mean that the Lord wills that someone should come to repentance?

Care to address any of those?



First, who is purporting that man is a robot or that he doesn't make a choice? Second, what you've said here clearly indicates that the efficacy of the Lord's offer is subjegated to whether the recipient opens the door. That means that God, who sovereignly intends for His "offer" to bring someone to salvation is impotent to do so unless they agree to it. Additionally, the logical end to what you've stated here is that those who are saved are masters of their destiny and their choice is the causal agent in determining their salvation. Not one iota of such a belief is found anywhere in Scripture.

As you didn't answer my question, I'll ask it again, "Is the efficacy of God's knock to cause someone to turn to Him regulated by whether the individual answers the door?"



Doing my best. I look forward to your response.

God bless

I'm not blowing you off brother. Life's been alittle dizzy the past week. I'll get you an answer to this this weekend. I just didn't want you to think I had forgotten.

 

[Reformationist]

I'm not blowing you off brother. Life's been alittle dizzy the past week. I'll get you an answer to this this weekend. I just didn't want you to think I had forgotten.

It's totally cool bro. My own life is completely hectic right now so take your time. I may need a little of your patience myself.

God bless

 

[Telrunya]

I'm sorry this took so long.

So the ones who realize that they aren't in control and that the world doesn't revolve around them and that they have to live for others are what, smarter, more holy, less prideful? Why do they realize it when those who never embrace the Lord don't?



Ummm..with all due respect Telrunya, man's choice to love or deny Him isn't even mentioned in that passage. It says that GOD is not willing that any should parish. I would say that it is imperative to avoid isolating this passage from context if we wish to have a proper understanding of what Peter is saying. We need to ask ourselves which of the following Peter is proclaiming:

2 Peter 3:9 (universal application)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any (person without exception) should perish but that all (people without exception) should come to repentance.

*bolded additions are mine

Or, in this manner:

2 Peter 3:9 (limited application)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any (of us) should perish but that all (of us) should come to repentance.

*bolded additions are mine

There are some very important issues at the heart of the Gospel here. To whom does the Lord make the promise? Toward whom/to whose benefit is the Lord longsuffering? What does it mean that God is not willing that any should perish? What does it mean that the Lord wills that someone should come to repentance?

Care to address any of those?



First, who is purporting that man is a robot or that he doesn't make a choice? Second, what you've said here clearly indicates that the efficacy of the Lord's offer is subjegated to whether the recipient opens the door. That means that God, who sovereignly intends for His "offer" to bring someone to salvation is impotent to do so unless they agree to it. Additionally, the logical end to what you've stated here is that those who are saved are masters of their destiny and their choice is the causal agent in determining their salvation. Not one iota of such a belief is found anywhere in Scripture.

As you didn't answer my question, I'll ask it again, "Is the efficacy of God's knock to cause someone to turn to Him regulated by whether the individual answers the door?"




Doing my best. I look forward to your response.

God bless

Great questions and masterful debating skill in manuevering me to defend a position I dont entirely hold with. Please dont take me to logical ends I haven't gone too. LOL. I am not of the Arminian school of thought though I lean that way more heavily than Calvinism. Perhaps I got off track in my previous post. Allow me to rephrase: The Bible is very clear that a man cannot earn his salvation. (Eph 2:8-9) As I stated before Faith and Grace are both gifts from God.(1 Cor.2:14) At the same time Christ paid the price for ALL men's sins. (1 John 2:2). Yet scripture is also clear that man has a part in salvation (John 3:16). The operative word that I base my statement upon is used throughout scripture is "believes". We cannot believe if we dont have faith and that faith comes from God, but believe also means to accept something as the truth. God initiates contact. We cant do it because before we are saved we're dead spiritually. Conversely to say that no free will or choice on the part of man is involved is to say that 2 Peter 3:9 is false. Strict Calvinism's greatest weak point is that if God only predestined some to be saved then he predestined all others to death. Thats not what 2 Peter 3:9 says though, is it? It says that God doesn't want anyone to perish. Just because a man uses his God given free will to believe does not mean that he earned his salvation. The grace is still from God.The man who believes still isn't worthy of salvation. God knocks. (Rom. 1:18-22) Man must choose to believe or be condemned. If man doesn't have a choice then how can he be condemned? Yet scripture clearly states that the unbelievers will be condemned. So I would say yes the efficacy of God's knock to cause someone to turn to Him regulated by whether the individual answers the doo, not because God cant make them answer the door but because he wont.

 

[Reformationist]

I'm sorry this took so long.

No problem at all. As I said, my own life is a bit hectic right now. No pressure. Respond when you find the time.

Great questions and masterful debating skill in manuevering me to defend a position I dont entirely hold with.

Thank you but I pray that you don't believe I have done so for any malicious reason.

Please dont take me to logical ends I haven't gone too. LOL.

I'll try not to. You'll have to tell me if I do so though.

Allow me to rephrase: The Bible is very clear that a man cannot earn his salvation. (Eph 2:8-9) As I stated before Faith and Grace are both gifts from God.(1 Cor.2:14)

I agree with both of these points.

At the same time Christ paid the price for ALL men's sins. (1 John 2:2).

The problem with such a view is that it requires that we either believe the sins of all have been atoned for, and thus all will inherit the blessings of such provision, or, Christ's atonement, though actually performed, and the payment He provides, though actually given, is made impotent by some outside force. So, my question to you is, if Christ actually paid the price for all men's sins, as you contend, what is the basis for condemning those who go to hell? After all, any payment God demanded of them has already been provided by Christ. For all intents and purposes, they should be viewed as righteous in the eyes of a just Judge.

Yet scripture is also clear that man has a part in salvation (John 3:16).

I'm sorry Telrunya but there is nothing in John 3:16 which speaks of man's contribution in the salvitic process. All John 3:16 says is that God has sent His Son to save those who believe. It does not say that man provides the belief. Belief is the logical and invariable response to being given the gift of faith.

The operative word that I base my statement upon is used throughout scripture is "believes".

Again, believing is not our contribution to the salvitic process. It is our response. Do you contribute to the truth of a claim by believing in it or is the truth of a claim established by the one who makes the claim?

We cannot believe if we dont have faith and that faith comes from God, but believe also means to accept something as the truth.

We may realistically distinguish between believing something and having faith in it but, honestly, when speaking of salvitic faith, it would be inappropriate to separate them. To believe in the Lord unto salvation we must be given the gift of faith. Once given, the gift of faith will always produce true belief.

God initiates contact. We cant do it because before we are saved we're dead spiritually.

God does not initiate contact. I have not a clue how you employ this analogy. God's effectual internal call regenerates someone from spiritual death to life in the Lord Jesus. It doesn't ask them if they're interested in being regenerated.

Conversely to say that no free will or choice on the part of man is involved is to say that 2 Peter 3:9 is false.

Again, I am at a loss as to how you are concluding that our free will or a choice we make has anything to do with whether or not God saves us. Nothing in 2 Peter 3:9 even addresses such a view. Can you explain?

Strict Calvinism's greatest weak point is that if God only predestined some to be saved then he predestined all others to death.

Obviously. I fail to see how that's a weakness, unless one assumes that it would be evil for God to do so, which I don't. We are the vessels of His hand. It is His divine perrogative to establish us as He sees fit.

Thats not what 2 Peter 3:9 says though, is it? It says that God doesn't want anyone to perish.

You're absolutely right Telrunya...if you rip that passage completely out of context. Not only does the admission that God, the sovereign Creator of all things created, doesn't want something to happen that still happens deny His omnipotence and immutability, it paints a picture of God that He has intentionally set Himself up for disappointment because He desires something that He ensures does not come to pass because He does not grant the gift of faith to all people, and faith is necessary. What does this say about the omniscience of God? Why would God desire something that He could bring to pass, but does not, knowing that His restraint from ensuring it will result in it not coming to pass? It is completely illogical and contrary to the nature of God.

Just because a man uses his God given free will to believe does not mean that he earned his salvation.

Telrunya, even pagans don't believe that believing is a product of a free will choice. You don't simply choose to believe the Gospel. This is a completely irrational outlook on why some people believe and why some don't. What's up with those who don't believe? Are they simply too obstinate and make the choice to not believe? Sorry but that is not how belief happens.

The grace is still from God.The man who believes still isn't worthy of salvation. God knocks. (Rom. 1:18-22)

Telrunya, the Bible is rife with examples of man's inability to believe apart from the grace of God. God doesn't just knock.

Man must choose to believe or be condemned.

Let me get this straight, you are contending that faith, which is necessary for belief, is a gift from God but actually believing is the product of a free will choice?

If man doesn't have a choice then how can he be condemned?

I never said man didn't have a choice. My position is that man will only and always reject the Gospel until and unless God gives him faith. Once given that faith will always have the same result, i.e., belief.

Yet scripture clearly states that the unbelievers will be condemned. So I would say yes the efficacy of God's knock to cause someone to turn to Him regulated by whether the individual answers the doo, not because God cant make them answer the door but because he wont.

I have no clue what to say other than that this is terribly man centered theology. I would rather die than think that God's ability to accomplish His desires is regulated by the creation of His hands. God ceases to be sovereign and man becomes the master of his own destiny. Truly sad Telrunya.

God bless