What jurisdiction are you a part of?

I think I need to schism with the OCA and form the Impatient-With-His-Bishop-Who-Thinks-Michael-Needs-to-Grow-a-Little-More-Spiritually-Before-He-Gives-Michael-the-Blessing-to-Write-Entire-Churches-of-Icons-Orthodox-Diocese. But then, that might be a reallly small Diocese!

Matrona said:

I don't think their priest could concelebrate with our priests but they could be among the congregation as a gesture of goodwill, and they never are.

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What if they held the next Sunday of Orthodoxy Vespers at the ROCOR church, where none of the other priests could concelebrate? Think the other priests would agree to it and be among the congregation as a gesture of goodwill?

ufonium2 said:

What if they held the next Sunday of Orthodoxy Vespers at the ROCOR church, where none of the other priests could concelebrate? Think the other priests would agree to it and be among the congregation as a gesture of goodwill?

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What makes you think the ROCOR parish would ever allow it?

They wouldn't allow other priests to set foot in the church? Even just to be in the congregation? I bet they would. They wouldn't allow the other priests to concelebrate, but since the other churches wouldn't let ROCOR priests concelebrate I don't see how ROCOR is being any more intolerant than anyone else.

My point is it's unfair to expect ROCOR to participate in things when they're treated like second-class citizens.

ufonium2 said:

My point is it's unfair to expect ROCOR to participate in things when they're treated like second-class citizens.

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They stormed out of the warm house in the dead of winter and now they're complaining because it's cold outside?

Trishy, I think BrushStroke is being self-effacing.

-Xenia

If there were a ROCOR parish closer to me, that's where I would be.

There's a ROCOR parish a few blocks from me. I attend vespers there a few times a year, but It's 100% Slavonic and I am so new to Orthodoxy that I need all the help I can get so I attend the Greek Chrurch in the next town which is half English, half Greek and the people (well,most of them) can speak English if they want to, which they do for me. There are many things about the Russian Church that I really REALLY love, but I am thankful to have my Greek Church. Actually, I am glad they are willing to have me!

Love, Xenia

Matrona said:

They stormed out of the warm house in the dead of winter and now they're complaining because it's cold outside?

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Sticking to your analogy, it doesn't seem to me like they are outside complaining. It seems to me that they've built their own house and they're pretty happy with it. But, then their former friends invite them to a party at the old house, on the condition that ROCOR has to come in the back door and isn't allowed to eat with the other guests. So, ROCOR refuses the invitation. Then, the former friends berate ROCOR for refusing to come to the party.

Be honest, would your congregation show up to a service in a church that wouldn't allow your priest to concelebrate?

ufonium2 said:

Sticking to your analogy, it doesn't seem to me like they are outside complaining. It seems to me that they've built their own house and they're pretty happy with it. But, then their former friends invite them to a party at the old house, on the condition that ROCOR has to come in the back door and isn't allowed to eat with the other guests. So, ROCOR refuses the invitation. Then, the former friends berate ROCOR for refusing to come to the party.

Be honest, would your congregation show up to a service in a church that wouldn't allow your priest to concelebrate?

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That analogy doesn't apply because ROCOR broke communion with us, we didn't break communion with them. They can't concelebrate with our priests because they won't concelebrate with our priests.

They are not heretical and they will be welcomed back into communion with open arms if and when they choose to restore communion with us--which they can only do when they acknowledge that we aren't heretical, either!

I totally stand corrected on the whole OCA not being recognized by the EP. That is an important distinction that some here made about their autocephalocity (sp?) and not their canonicity being questioned. Thank you!

As far as the whole ROCOR thing goes, I really don't think it is as bad as many are making it out to be. I mean, I'm sure in some areas in the World it is, but generally between the ROCOR and the OCA and ROC there is intercommunion. Officially not, but on the priest/lay level there is. And the bishops know this as well. They aren't dumb. They just turn their head and pretend not to see it because they are all (ROCOR and ROC) working towards official union and sometimes, as they know, it needs to start from the bottom up. Were I in the same position as the Synod who started ROCOR early last century, I may have done the same thing. It was an emergency situation and this anomaly called the ROCOR probably helped countless believers keep their faith in a Church that SEEMED to be being run by puppets of the government. Whether this was true or not is not the question, for the perception was VERY real to many Russians and they saw the Holy Synod as a way of preserving Orthodoxy (let's remeber that these people who made up the Synod were not self-appointed Bishops, but already ordained Bishops by the Church). I believe God blessed that. And now, many are realizing that the existence of a separate Church outside of Russia is no longer necessary. I think someone already mentioned it, but the ROC and the ROCOR are in very sensitive talks right now and their reconciliation is set for sometime soon. Neither Church is calling the other "Schismatic" in these talks (even if they have in the past). We should also be thankful to the ROCOR for preserving much of what has been lost by other Orthodox. While I think it is wonderful that the OCA takes a more practical approach to the Liturgy (reading aloud the silent prayers, etc) I think it is equally good that the ROCOR has found it important to conserve the "Old Ways". Diversity in the Church is beautiful!

Also, as far as the ROCOR not serving at the Orthodoxy Sunday Vespers goes, I completely understand where they are coming from. I don't know about that particular parish, but such a response is not necessarily out of pride but can be out of humility as well. Talks between the ROC and the ROCOR are still sensitive and there has been nothing "official" yet (let's not forget that there were similar hopes for reconciliation between the Copts and the Orthodox some decades ago and then they just kind of dwindled into nothingness.. so tragic!). Concelebrating usually tells people that we are in every way (both mystically and athoritatively) unified... and the latter is, unfortunately, not true yet. And please, to expect the priests to come and just stand with the congregation? It would be completely uncanonical for a priest not to do so except in circumstances where they have too many priest and too little space... and why should they anyway? That truly would be treating them like second class citizens... "you guys are kinda like priests."

I do recognize that the ROCOR tends to be more stubborn than the next jurisdiction, this is true, but I have been surprised at how wrong my stereotype of these people has been since I have been a member at Monachos.net (where there are many ROCOR priests and monks who are very "ROCOR" but have NEVER questioned our Orthodoxy) and I have met other ROCOR priests in person with the same mentality. Actually, they haven't ever met my stereotype... I wonder why I still hold it??? lol

Countrymouse, I wanted to tell you that, despite some of these messes, I've just learned to say, "let the Bishops deal with that, and I'll deal with being Orthodox." Sometimes it is easy in Orthodoxy to fall into a splitting-hairs mentality. Don't let that happen. Keep your eye's on the prize which is growing in Christ through using the awesome tools that the Church gives you: the beautiful prayers (the Trisagions, The Jesus Prayer), your own prayers, the Divine Liturgy, the Eucharist and other Sacraments afforded to you, the Scriptures, the Lives and writings of the Saints and fasting (sacrifice in general) and almsgiving. None of these are an end in themselves, but rather means to work towards theosis: a relationship with Christ.

I will sign off for now. God bless everyone!

James

JamesH said:

Also, as far as the ROCOR not serving at the Orthodoxy Sunday Vespers goes, I completely understand where they are coming from. I don't know about that particular parish, but such a response is not necessarily out of pride but can be out of humility as well.

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James, what a wonderful post! I especially agree with what you said here.

Thanks Photini!

I second that, James.

Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church
Under the Synod of Bishops and
His Beatitude Metropolitan Valentin of Suzdal and Vladimir
-------
In Christ,
Juvenaly Martinka

OCA!

We need the Patriarchs and Archbishops to step in and lead the flock here in America. The truth of the matter is that Americans are a big fat cash cow and no one wants to lose the flow of money. I hate to say it, but they need to stop putting self interest first!

Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria, along with Moscow and the other jurisdictions need to step in and stop the confusion. The body of Christ is NOT meant to be in confusion, as long as it is, American Orthodoxy will never be the force it should be.

The OCA is a great way to unify and bridge all forms of Orthodoxy here in America.

BTW, I prefer the Antiochian chants.

ufonium2 said:

They wouldn't allow other priests to set foot in the church? Even just to be in the congregation? I bet they would. They wouldn't allow the other priests to concelebrate, but since the other churches wouldn't let ROCOR priests concelebrate I don't see how ROCOR is being any more intolerant than anyone else.

My point is it's unfair to expect ROCOR to participate in things when they're treated like second-class citizens.

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Umm a couple of years ago when the Kursk Root Icon came to St. James-ROCOR in Tulsa, Fr. Moses from teh OCA Parish in MO sang the Akathist with the ROCOR Priests.

So, even though I am not ROCOR and won't deny that they are filled with hardliners (as are many other jurisdictions), everything is not black and white etc.

Joe Zollars

Oh and BTW, those in the know know that it doesn't come much more hardline than St. James Tulsa.

Joe Zollars