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Good scripture!2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Good scripture!
"That day [the Day of the Lord] shall not come except there come a departing first [the rapture or catching away of the church] and then that man of sin be revealed...."
Does this fit the context? Certainly it does! Paul tells us in 6,7 & 8 and there is something holding back the antichrist, or hindering his being revealed. It is the CHURCH indwelt with the Holy Spirit. He - the Holy Spirit - is working through the church, restraining evil all over the globe. When the church is taken, suddenly the Holy Spirit has NO ONE LEFT to work with at the moment of departing. OF COURSE people will turn to God after that, but for a while, Satan will be free to get his man "revealed."
Then Paul tells us, this restrainer will be "taken out of the way."
Is not the church "taken out of the way" at the rapture? Of course it is! We go to heaven, and leave this world to the devil. He takes over through the Beast and sets up the image and mark.
So this verse (verse 3) is really telling us that the rapture must come first. And then - and ONLY then - can the man of sin be revealed. In other words, God is not going to allow him to be revealed until after we are gone.
For those that want to study the Greek, this "taken out of the way" could as well be translated "become out of the midst." Really it means the same thing: departed and moved out of the way.
Then if we look closely at the word in question: apostasia, we see it is a compound word, "apo" and "Stasia."
From "Apo" Strong's tells us:
At the rapture, FOR SURE a part of the whole population will be "taken out of the way" or SEPARATED from the rest.
- of separation of a part from the whole
- where of a whole some part is taken
Stasis: Or Histemi
1. A standing [stationary] state of standing still
2. A resurrection.
If we put the first part (separation of a part from a whole) with these two, which makes the most sense?
Of course, a part of the whole taken or separated from the whole while they are left standing.
this gives us the idea that the rapture will be INSTANT; so sudden it seems that when it happens, all others not taken are still standing there, wondering what just happened!
This is a much better fit than a part of a whole suddenly removed or separated for a resurrection!
Therefore it seems the very best idea of what Paul was writing is that we are not to be deceived: "that day [the day of the Lord] CANNOT come until first there is a sudden separation - a part of the whole population suddenly removed from the while - while those left behind are just left standing - wondering what happened. This fits perfectly with verses 6-8 where something is restraining, but it is to be "taken out of the way" and THEN the man of sin revealed.
If we look at the first translations into English, we see that they used the world "departing" rather than a falling away.
I understand how frustrating it can be to read things we disagree with and think are totally stupid, and how easy it is to type up a response in anger and click "Post". I've posted some angry posts as well, some of them directed at you, because as you know we see things very differently, but let's try to keep our cool.
On the contrary. It seems that you are not aware that we are souls. A soul is a living creature. Without life, we're just dust, but with the breath of God we've become living creatures. We've become souls.
Do you not know the soul and the body are separated at death? When a person dies, the corpse is what sleeps and await resurrection. The individual's soul never dies. The soul doesn't sleep in the grave. Do you know what a person's soul is and how it works in the spiritual realm? Seems like you're confusing the two as one.
but let's try to keep our cool.
I'm not sure if you think we said the same thing, but we didn't. I believe we become souls when our bodies are combined with the breath of life (Genesis 2:7). In other words the combining of the body and the breath of life, makes a soul. You still seem to be saying that the the soul can separate from the body. I'm saying that when life leaves the body (and goes back to God who gave it), there is no longer a soul.What finally made me react was you accusing me of your error. The same error I was trying to correct you of.
You said,
It seems that you are not aware that we are souls. A soul is a living creature.That was your response after I had told you we are souls in a body and our soul never dies.
Do you not know the soul and the body are separated at death? When a person dies, the corpse is what sleeps and await resurrection. The individual's soul never dies. The soul doesn't sleep in the grave.
I don't believe I made an error. I think you misunderstood me.So instead of admitting your own error, you tried to redirect the error at me.
But I did admit my mistake, but I was also right to blame him as his poor quoting skills made it look like your quote. So my mistake was due to his mistake.And instead of admitting your mistake misquoting another person's post, you put the blame on that other guy, who had nothing to do with us and not even involved in our argument.
And he never did man up.And let me also say this to you what you told the other guy in your post after realizing your mistake; "It was your fault all this started, why don't you man up to it."
Ya, we're cool. Just still not understanding each other I think.Sure. I got no hard feelings. I'm cool. How about you? Are we cool?
Is not the church "taken out of the way" at the rapture? Of course it is! We go to heaven, and leave this world to the devil. He takes over through the Beast and sets up the image and mark.
So this verse (verse 3) is really telling us that the rapture must come first. And then - and ONLY then - can the man of sin be revealed. In other words, God is not going to allow him to be revealed until after we are gone.
Emotionally response isn't always triggered when two people disagree on a particular subject so much as when one accuses the other of something totally untrue.
It doesn't bother me when people disagree with me on something. It didn't bother me when you disagreed with me concerning soul sleep.
What finally made me react was you accusing me of your error. The same error I was trying to correct you of.
You said,
It seems that you are not aware that we are souls. A soul is a living creature.
That was your response after I had told you we are souls in a body and our soul never dies.
Do you not know the soul and the body are separated at death? When a person dies, the corpse is what sleeps and await resurrection. The individual's soul never dies. The soul doesn't sleep in the grave.
So instead of admitting your own error, you tried to redirect the error at me.
I know your tricks LS. You like to point the finger at someone else and like to portrait yourself as the victim of an argument. We had a similar argument a month ago. You falsely accused me of posting something I did not. I told you to go back and check your error. You did so and realize it was a mistake on your end. And instead of admitting your mistake misquoting another person's post, you put the blame on that other guy, who had nothing to do with us and not even involved in our argument.
You than followed up writing a post to him accusing him as the culprit that started the argument between us while you in error misunderstood what you read. The evidences are written on this forum and so is he.
I already knew what you were about to do. Redirect your finger at someone else ( this time, me) for your own mistake again. I merely stopped you on your track poking fun at you before you could get to 1st base with this.
So let's see you keep your cool after me being candid about what had happened.
And let me also say this to you what you told the other guy in your post after realizing your mistake; "It was your fault all this started, why don't you man up to it."
Sure. I got no hard feelings. I'm cool. How about you? Are we cool?
.
Hi Lamad,
It is a good scripture in which Paul plainly stated in 3 simple verses what he meant to say. Just look at how long a post it took you to explain what you think Paul meant to say. I’ll just stick with the text as written.
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Soul sleep is absolutely false doctrine.
I believe God is going to wrap up this age very quickly now.
I don't believe I made an error. I think you misunderstood me.
but that doesn't change the fact that people do not become spirits immediately upon death. That doesn't happen until the resurrection. Until then, we actually die and go back to the dust of the earth, just as God told Adam.
But I did admit my mistake, but I was also right to blame him as his poor quoting skills made it look like your quote. So my mistake was due to his mistake.
And he never did man up.
While you are looking for a "falling away" first, I will be departing. You will see the man of sin revealed; those caught up in the rapture will not. We will not have long to wait. I believe God is going to wrap up this age very quickly now.
Just remember, the "text" was written in Greek. It is the apostasia that will come first - a departing or departure. Apo: from the whole, a part of the whole is taken - as all are stationary. It will happen in a split second.
I think you need to read the New Testament more. Did you forget about the rich man and Lazarus?The Bible teaches and both Luther and Tyndale believed the dead sleep
and are unconscious of events and the passing of time until the resurrection.
.
They will learn the truth within seconds of when their heart stops!That's what I'm trying to tell Lastseven. You should explain it to him as he doesn't seem to understand me when I tell him.
.
Lamad said:
While you are looking for a "falling away" first, I will be departing. You will see the man of sin revealed; those caught up in the rapture will not.
Paul said there would be one, I am looking for Paul’s words to be fulfilled.
I assure you there is nothing in scripture that says ones view of the pre or post debate is a determining factor in being with the Lord whenever He comes.
Lamad said:
We will not have long to wait. I believe God is going to wrap up this age very quickly now.
Amen.
Lamad said:
Just remember, the "text" was written in Greek. It is the apostasia that will come first - a departing or departure.
It will be a departure from the faith not a departure from the planet. The definition of the Greek word does not support you in this. The passage clearly says that our gathering will not take place before the “falling away” and man of sin being revealed! You have to change the word “apostasia” to your liking to make that happen. Shall we number the pitiful few translations that appear to agree with you on this by using the word departure, for the overwhelming many that do not? There are even pretibbers that do not agree with you on this point. The text says what it says much to your dismay.
There is no doubt this word can mean a separation. A slightly different form is used for divorce. It is well known that at a divorce, there is separation: ONE PARTY leaves. We could use the same word, a departing or departure of either the husband or wife.Lamad said:
Apo: from the whole, a part of the whole is taken - as all are stationary. It will happen in a split second.
Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
The exact same Greek word is translated forsake in Acts 21:21 and is clearly used in the same way departing from the faith would be.
Acts 21:21 Interlinear: and they are instructed concerning thee, that apostasy from Moses thou dost teach to all Jews among the nations, saying -- Not to circumcise the children, nor after the customs to walk;
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Interlinear: let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,
Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt
Acts 21:21 N-AFS
GRK: σοῦ ὅτι ἀποστασίαν διδάσκεις ἀπὸ
NAS: the Gentiles to forsake Moses,
KJV: the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying
INT: you that apostasy you teach from
2 Thessalonians 2:3 N-NFS
GRK: ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ
NAS: you, for [it will not come] unless the apostasy comes
KJV: there come a falling away first,
INT: shall have come the apostasy first and
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
This does not even hint at leaving the planet! That is your definition.
Sorry Lamad, the facts are not with you on this point.
Can you tell if there has been a significant falling away? When will you know? I can tell the significant departure has not happened. We will all know when that happens.
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