What is wrong with self-interest?

[morningstar2651]

The distinction between self interest and selfishness is a subtle one.

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." - Oscar Wilde

 

[Beanieboy]

How can you know, but be unaware?

They didn't know they were killing Christ. They thought they were killing a man that claimed to be the son of God, but wasn't.

 

[yguy]

How can you know, but be unaware?

By sinning. That's the "value" in it, from the POV of the sinner.

They didn't know they were killing Christ.

Fact not in evidence.

They thought they were killing a man that claimed to be the son of God, but wasn't.

Whether they knew He was the Messiah or not, they knew He was innocent - yet when Pilate gave them a chance to set Him free, they set the robber free instead. They knew they were committing murder, yet Christ said they didn't know what they were doing. The patent contradiction only exists because of the limitations of language.

 

[allhart]

You will find that if its about you, the burden is on you. If its about Jesus, the burden is on Him. I find no peace in my selfish pursuits. For no one is happy. If I don't put the people that I love first we all wind up hating it. I suffer guilt etc, I wind up miserable like them? And so on.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

How can you know, but be unaware?

They didn't know they were killing Christ. They thought they were killing a man that claimed to be the son of God, but wasn't.

Do you think that was all Jesus referred to here? Just his own trial and execution?

 

[Maxwell511]

She illustrates this by a woman who works in Social Service. The pay is low, the work is hard, she spends a lot of time with people who are unemployed, jaded, trying to offer them deadend jobs, trying to help them with welfare that barely covers basic expenses. She says, "I can't believe how ungrateful these people are!" The problem was that she wasn't doing it to be altruistic. She was doing it to be thanked by people that are going through very hard times, while she returns to her nice home, knows she has a stable job, and none of the difficulties they face. She wants to be thought of as a good person.

I despise Rand. She seems to ignore that fact that peoples interests are shared and that happiness is shared.

People don't help each other in order to get praise (generally) they do it because the happiness of others makes them happy.

We are naturally altruistic because altruism is the only path to happiness.

 

[allhart]

I despise Rand. She seems to ignore that fact that peoples interests are shared and that happiness is shared.

People don't help each other in order to get praise (generally) they do it because the happiness of others makes them happy.

We are naturally altruistic because altruism is the only path to happiness.

Well there is a big difference between happiness and joy. As well knowing the difference.

 

[Maxwell511]

Well there is a big difference between happiness and joy. As well knowing the difference.

I'm not sure from your post whether you consider happiness or joy to be better state to work towards.

Heroin addicts experience joy when they shoot up, they don't experience happiness.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I despise Rand. She seems to ignore that fact that peoples interests are shared and that happiness is shared.

She not only seems to do that, she actually does that. Rand perceived the world as being filled with sociopaths, some of which pretended to care for others (her villains) while some others were honest enough to acknowledge that they had no true connection or commitment to others whatsoever (her heroes).
She was an advocate of the free market, but didn't even understand the mechanics of the same. The free market is not about some titanic supermen carrying the rest of the world on their titanic shoulders. Emphatically so.

People don't help each other in order to get praise (generally) they do it because the happiness of others makes them happy.

QFT.

We are naturally altruistic because altruism is the only path to happiness.

Here, I'd at least partially disagree. "Altruism" is a buzzword, as is "self-interest".
We are neither ants nor piranhas. We are humans. For the most part, acting socially and acting in one's self-interest go hand in hand.

 

[allhart]

I'm not sure from your post whether you consider happiness or joy to be better state to work towards.

Heroin addicts experience joy when they shoot up, they don't experience happiness.

It is the other way around that's why the are addicts.

 

[morningstar2651]

Happiness isn't a goal - it is the consequence of attaining a goal.

 

[allhart]

Happiness isn't a goal - it is the consequence of attaining a goal.

Joy is content no matter the circumstance/happiness.

 

[Maxwell511]

It is the other way around that's why the are addicts.

I think that we have a slight difference in language here. As the saying goes Americans and English speaking Europeans are seperated by a common language.

Joy is the type of emotion that you have when (for example) the football team you support wins a match. That is my concept of joy. A temporary reaction to self gratification.

 

[ApostateForGoodReason]

The distinction between self interest and selfishness is a subtle one.

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." - Oscar Wilde

Thank you!

 

[ApostateForGoodReason]

I despise Rand. She seems to ignore that fact that peoples interests are shared and that happiness is shared.

People don't help each other in order to get praise (generally) they do it because the happiness of others makes them happy.

We are naturally altruistic because altruism is the only path to happiness.

I disagree completely. I love Ayn Rand - she may not be 100% correct, but she is a fun read.

A great many people help others in order to gain praise, were that not to be the case - people would not have scholarships, endowments & etc. named after themselves... if they didn't want praise all charitable donations would be anonymous...

We are not naturally altruistic... we are naturally selfish need machines who are socialized to accept that we don't ultimately get what we want if we hurt and/or refuse to help others repeatedly. Take a look at any 2 year old for example.

 

[allhart]

I think that we have a slight difference in language here. As the saying goes Americans and English speaking Europeans are seperated by a common language.

Joy is the type of emotion that you have when (for example) the football team you support wins a match. That is my concept of joy. A temporary reaction to self gratification.

Look, if you walk down the street; look down and find a 100 dollar bill. Your instantly happy for the moment. Until you have spent it. Joy is being content no matter the circumstance. You would be good before and after, Rich or poor, with much or little.

Your insults are not making you look smarter.

 

[Garyzenuf]

Look, if you walk down the street; look down and find a 100 dollar bill. Your instantly happy for the moment. Until you have spent it. Joy is being content no matter the circumstance. You would be good before and after, Rich or poor, with much or little.

Your insults are not making you look smarter.

I don't see where he was insulting you Allhart, but I guess insults like beauty rests in the eye of the beholder.


So are you saying joy is a constant state of being, and happiness is just blips to that state like the spikes on a heart-monitor? It sounds like you're talking more about gratitude than joy.

*

 

[allhart]

I don't see where he was insulting you Allhart, but I guess insults like beauty rests in the eye of the beholder.


So are you saying joy is a constant state of being, and happiness is just blips to that state like the spikes on a heart-monitor? It sounds like you're talking more about gratitude than joy.

*

I see that he didn't insult me after a reread. My bad! Sorry Max, However max Happiness is the momentary and Joy is the constant. Either way there is a difference, correct?

The reason I say this. God owns everything and being a son of God, so do I; therefore, I work and live under different principles.Maybe not the Stewart at hand ,but still I own everything! along with that said I work for the good of the people. In which work is wealth and a gift from God. As Paul stated he was content with much and little. It didn't matter. What ever you have is a gift of the lord and we just turn around and share it with others. So In my presence you have whatever I have. Everything bad or good without God is vain.

 

[allhart]

Try these reads for example, 2 Corinthian 4:15, Proverbs 3:9, 1 Chronicles 29:12, Deuteronomy 8:18

 

[Maxwell511]

I disagree completely. I love Ayn Rand - she may not be 100% correct, but she is a fun read.

A great many people help others in order to gain praise, were that not to be the case - people would not have scholarships, endowments & etc. named after themselves... if they didn't want praise all charitable donations would be anonymous...

I did include a (generally) part to my post. Sometimes people act in such a manner. I just believe that that is an exception and not the rule.

We are not naturally altruistic... we are naturally selfish need machines who are socialized to accept that we don't ultimately get what we want if we hurt and/or refuse to help others repeatedly. Take a look at any 2 year old for example.

2 year olds can't understand ideas of perspective. Their brains are far from fully formed.