What is Wrong with going to Church?

heron · Sep 22, 2005

Jesus buggered. (The second shortest verse in the Bible.)

It's interesting that some writers analyzing church trends see this as an era of individualism, while those inside churches struggle with the opposite.

Moses held himself accountable. Elijah certainly did. Jonah tried. Joseph traded flags over it. Noah and Abraham held up their individual convictions for decades, despite mockery. Hosea...I won't even get into that one.

truthteller · Sep 25, 2005

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
..Individualism....so that WE would ALL be PRIESTS... while I still think accountabiblity is essential to be a Christian (or samurai/druid/jedi/lego-er/curryeater/artist - as i tend to label myself) this issue of TRUSTING people to be RESPONSIBLE for their OWN SALVATION is the whole frickin point!

A Samurai or Druid or Jedi or Lego-er or Curryeater or Artist who rejects the salvation offerred in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for his sins is "condemned already".

John 3:36 He that hath the Son hath life. He that hath not the Son hath not life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
EMPOWERMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL COUPLED WITH TRUST-EARNED ACCOUNTABILITY. WITH JESUS. There's Church.

The power of the individual comes from one external source only: Jesus Christ. "I will build my church of living stones". But He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh unto the Father but by Him.

Once you are born again into the new life that Jesus gives you, you grow in both learning and accountability. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept, like it says in Isaiah. It is impossible to have faith without the Word.

The Church in Acts met in homes for sure. But they took their Bibles with them.

--Alan

truthteller · Sep 25, 2005

Received said:
Why do we need individualism -- the flourishing of the individual at the death of the church (or the view of theological fascism wherein the individual is negated by being considered a part of the "crowd" of the church)? Because God makes particular demands for each person, the refusal to follow resulting in sin, the ignorance of (by virtue of being lost in the crowd) a form of foundational despair; and how much truth is there in the crowd? None. "Where the crowd is there is untruth" (Kierkegaard) and this, among other reasons, the sense of groupthink that unconsciously grows there.

Broad is the way, narrow is the gate, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be that go in therat.

But also, "He must increase, but I must decrease", said John the Baptist, who among us can say he is greater. "Christ in you, the hope of glory".

Like Dwight L. Moody said, the only Bible most people read is the one in (our) shoe leather.

-Alan

truthteller · Sep 25, 2005

heron said:
Moses held himself accountable. Elijah certainly did. Jonah tried. Joseph traded flags over it. Noah and Abraham held up their individual convictions for decades, despite mockery. Hosea...I won't even get into that one.

The entire united tribes of Israel were accountable to Moses, as God's prophet, and there were thousands who were swallowed up and destroyed for their murmuring against him, and even his second, and brother, Aaron, along with his sister, Marian, were struck with leprosy seven days for questioning that very relationship of accountability. And Moses had his: denied entry to the Promised Land itself. The prophets of Elijah's day, including Elishah, answered to him. Nineveh had to heed the warning brought them by Jonah.

Hosea obeyed God in the matter, if you're referring to the prostitute wife. Maybe someday you'll get to be humbled enough to know you have to depend on God. Then there's David, who had to answer to Nathan the prophet, even though he was king.

Then there are the Biblical verses about God setting up teachers, evangelists, prophets, and so on, and there's no more an expiration date on that than there is on faith for miracles and healing.

Doesn't mean they have to meet inside a building that they have to call a church. Despite God allowing the construction of Solomon's temple, Stephen in Acts 6 quoted God's retort to David on the idea, how God "dwelleth not in temples made with hands".

--Alan

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Sep 26, 2005

truthteller said:
The Church in Acts met in homes for sure. But they took their Bibles with them.

--Alan

Really? And I thought the NT was written way, way after that lot were dust!

Hey, matey, NP. Rejecting Jesus will obviously degate a relationship with him. But only Jesus can judge who has done this. All we can do is look at the outside - which never show a lot really - God looks at the heart... I'd still look for Jesus with the world, than not. But thanks anyway

M Paul · Sep 26, 2005

Here's a 16th century wood cut that still seems applicable to today.

Regards,

Paul

heron · Sep 26, 2005

Maybe someday you'll get to be humbled enough to know you have to depend on God.

Where did that come from??? You're judging my life from one paragraph?

New_Wineskin · Sep 26, 2005

truthteller said:
Once you are born again into the new life that Jesus gives you, you grow in both learning and accountability. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept, like it says in Isaiah. It is impossible to have faith without the Word.

The Church in Acts met in homes for sure. But they took their Bibles with them.

--Alan

Faith comes by hearing by the Word of God - not the "bible" .

.Mikha'el. · Sep 26, 2005

SNPete said:
I have a question.

I been seeing posts in this section where a poster doesnt like other Christians pushing the idea one must go to church. OK being pushy is bad. But:

My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?

I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.

My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I dont this as being possible with a home fellowship group.

As someone who has just ended more than ten years of not attending church services of any kind, I think I can answer the question. Sometimes, the experiences at church can be unpleasent. My parents stopped attending church when they had problems with the pastors at two churches they tried. Sometimes, the beliefs that are preached at a particular church can be problematic for a believer, something my sister has posted about at CF. For me, I found there were concerns about congergation size, given how I am a very introverted person, and pefer engaging in the sort of worship that Jesus mentioned in Mark 6.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Sep 27, 2005

Thanks M!!!!

And adding to Petrach, some people actually feel called by God to leave their local church context in order to save their relationship with Jesus.

heron · Sep 27, 2005

Truthteller, I believe those examples you gave can be interpreted many ways. Moses organized over two million people, and he was their governmental system. The exodus wasn't just about faith, but governing an entire community that had been uprooted.

Experientially, I must say that whenever a leader has promoted or imposed the teaching of covering, especially in asking a member's independent ministry to come under the authority of the church, I have watched that ministry crumble.

Scripturally, Jesus sent his disciples out into the towns to minister to people independently. If we cluster in our churches and check every action we take with someone who doesn't know the situation, we will move forward as slowly as [a certain organization that forgot that civil unrest and human baseness could enter into the swirling mix.]

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Sep 27, 2005

Agreed eron. Nice one.

There is great fear in the church of the individual.
Odd really, when Jesus cared so much for our individual rights that he gave us Holy Spirit.
Always confused me that one has... while we are called to disciple one another, we are not asked to depersonalise ourselves. If anything, Holy Spirit makes our faith more personal than most.

God trusts humans with God's plan. Let's do God proud!

M Paul · Sep 27, 2005

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
Agreed eron. Nice one.

There is great fear in the church of the individual.
Odd really, when Jesus cared so much for our individual rights that he gave us Holy Spirit.
Always confused me that one has... while we are called to disciple one another, we are not asked to depersonalise ourselves. If anything, Holy Spirit makes our faith more personal than most.

God trusts humans with God's plan. Let's do God proud!

There is a type of fear of the individual in the traditional church. However, those who advocate focusing on the individual outside of the traditional church seem to be really fueling the fire. The way they express the issue very often makes it seem they are upholding some kind of me first egomania. The idea in the house church movement is to have approaches individualized, to focus on the individual in communicating, but not in any way to put oneself above others. Thus, in a Christian sense, the advocacy itself seems disgusting, and I'm not sure if it's because of poor expression or if it is truly selfish at times.

Regards,

Paul

buffedstuff · Oct 6, 2005

-------------------------

SNPete · Oct 6, 2005

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
Agreed eron. Nice one.

There is great fear in the church of the individual.
Odd really, when Jesus cared so much for our individual rights that he gave us Holy Spirit.
Always confused me that one has... while we are called to disciple one another, we are not asked to depersonalise ourselves. If anything, Holy Spirit makes our faith more personal than most.

God trusts humans with God's plan. Let's do God proud!

Why do you have a girl CF character in her underwear?

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Oct 7, 2005

A long story. I personally dont like CF characters, but a friend sent me a turban in relation to another post and so i thought i'd get a body... when i have enough points i'll stick it in a radiation suit as all the other bodies suck IMO.

nothing?

BeforeThereWas · Oct 9, 2005

SNPete said:
just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?

Would it not seem strange to you if you heard me state that I'm going to humanity this Sunday morning? I'm human, so how do I go to myself?

I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.

No problem. It was a legitimate question that got a legitimate answer.

My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian.

Only if you believe that blanket statements like this have any real merit in and of themselves.

Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community.

Yes, it is only one among many that can reach out to the community.

If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship,

Now I have a question for you. How does one fellowship with the backs of other people's heads. Just a question, not an attack.

BTW

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Oct 10, 2005

I like the way the OP asks what's wrong with going to Church and then asks why be part of a House Church - as if a House Church isn't Church! It's very funny.

(Dread to think what the OP makes of what our Church did!)

BeforeThereWas · Oct 10, 2005

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
I like the way the OP asks what's wrong with going to Church and then asks why be part of a House Church - as if a House Church isn't Church! It's very funny.

(Dread to think what the OP makes of what our Church did!)

Well, exploding the three little pigs was indeed a novel idea.

BTW

JesseRaymondBassett · Oct 10, 2005

What's wrong with going to Church? Nothing except one thing:

The Church is the body of Christ, NOT a buidling.

What is Wrong with going to Church?

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