What is Wrong with going to Church?

Qidron said:

...then ima Special Needs person.

the QID

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Heh. I guess that goes for all of us.

Qidron said:

I've heard the same thing said about the folks who hang around internet forums. If that's what it takes to break away from the maddening crowd...okedoke...then ima Special Needs person.

the QID

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I've always been one of those kind anyway, so what is new?

newday said:

I come here to read threads alot but I don't post much.

I live in a very traditional city. The idea of "home church" means that you are "off" and not "hearing from God correctly."
That's just how it is.
My husband and I and a few others have decided to participate in a home church at our home.
I have not turned my back on God nor His precious Son Jesus.
I just no longer choose to follow and live by man's traditions.
My eyes have finally been opened to see that there is only one that I have to please and that is my Father in Heaven.
When it is all over and I have to stand before God ALL BY MYSELF, I only have to answer for what I believed and what I said and done in my body.
I don't talk negatively about my other brothers and sisters in Christ.
I read a book that helped me so much called the "Grace Awakening."
I can extended people the grace to be who they are and where they are without judging them and telling them they are off or have to do things a certain way.
I am not the judge. Thank God!
Glad to be here with you all.
Newday

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ALL BY MYSELF might not make it, will Yeshua testify for you?
in a home/house church, at work, in your neighborhood - do you testify to
your oneness with Yeshua and obey Him? if you do, well and good, then He Will Testify for you before the Father.
but, in a big or small or home or organized or any kind of church, if you
don't obey trustingly,
you [anybody] don't have a chance.
Yeshua didn't die on a tree to give you a chance to do what you want,
Yeshua did die on a tree to give you a chance to do what He wants.

this may be touchy for some people. if Yeshua(Jesus) IS L_RD, then who
decides what to do?

in denoms, Yeshua is not L_rd - they rejected the chief cornerstone.
in some homechurches, Yeshua is not L_rd, they just get comfy.

in[and out of] denoms and homechurches,
some people may be found subject to Yeshua,
obeying Yhwh's Eternal Word.
The Way of Truth is painful and agonizing, and few are there who find it.
It requires every bit of your energy and resources.
In the BODY, you will find rest freely giving yourself for others.
Out of the BODY, you will find physical comfort as your own needs are met
but others still go hungry, naked, and homeless in your neighborhood.
In the BODY, you make sure others needs are met first, before your own -
this is how G_D's Word describes how others will know you are HIS, by the
selfsacrificial giving you have for one another.
even if, or in spite of, or because of,
being hurt very much yourself, G_d will still give you peace and joy and
righteousness beyond all your fellows
as you do what is right,serving others, or Jesus Himself ...Matther 25 ?

this is a warning to those who serve self, to turn to G_d and by healed,
and an encouragement to whosoever has lost[given up] everything for His Sake, you are received into the Kingdom, fear nothing.

So what's the problem? I think newday has gotten the concept of grace. Y'know, salvation through faith by grace, not by works. We don't judge, God does. She has also gotten the concept of serving God rather than man, we are answerable only to God anyway. The veil was torn, and anyone that believes needs no priest except Jesus Christ - who always lives to intercede for us. That is something to be happy about!

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Jeremiah 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.

The earliest church lived together (Acts 2, 4), so there was no "going" to church. Ecclesia means "called-out ones".
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

1 Corinthians 3:16 ¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Received said:

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Indeed, that is a very reasonable opinion to hold, but it still remains personal, though there is a very high liklihood of agreement on this point. Some may not go to a specific church because the behavior there is aversive to one's spiritual walk -- particular persons who attend may cause involuntary distaste, which opens the door for sin, and church is presumably a place to escape from sin. Others may not go because, like one person I knew, they work six days a week and therefore only have one day entirely free to rest. Still others may not go because the sermon is either ridiculously boring, or contains material one already knows. I am of this latter point: I read voraciously, know my pastor's theology almost, if not better than, he does, and consider the lessons he speaks to be rather bland for my taste, though for others, who don't read like me, the freak, might find this information edifying. One may not go to any church because his place of living does not allow for any expedient reach of a church, or he may not find any church that "clicks" with him.

Ultimately, I find nothing necessarily bad about the Christian who spends the day at home, and this presumably includes sleeping late. Worship is a way of being, and is poorly contained in a single hour once a week. In order to be able to act in such a way that entails the greatest spirit of worship, one must have the greatest physical and psychical advantage possible to be able to prolong and magnify this capacity for worship. And this may include staying home to stay away from agitating persons, or boring sermons; or sleeping late, seeing how sleep is needed for good health.

Moreover, church was much more a perceived necessity at the birth of Christianity, and in places where Christianity is a minority, than it is now, where I am living. The early church was a means of getting away from vehement persecution and finding a growing faith in the presence of others who were fighting the same good fight as oneself. Such is rarely the case now, and here in America and other places that tolerate religious freedom. Hence, there is really no pressing need to go to church unless one finds blessings in the presence of others, or the sermon to be scintillating or fascinating.

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The early church was a place to get away from persecution???????

When the church was young, identifying with the church was a sure-fire way to run smack into persecution. The church, as in the people, were persecuted by both the Jewish community, (Stephen, a Jewish Christian, was stoned to death by his fellow Jews.) and Romans, who thought the church was just another form of Judaism.

The purpose of attending church, in some form, is for the fellowship and support of other like-minded brothers and sisters.

So, perhaps, the question to ask is not; "to GO or not to GO to church?" But, rather, what is wrong with the church, as it exists today, that it drives people out rather than drawing them in?

truthteller said:

A Samurai or Druid or Jedi or Lego-er or Curryeater or Artist who rejects the salvation offerred in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for his sins is "condemned already".

John 3:36 He that hath the Son hath life. He that hath not the Son hath not life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



The power of the individual comes from one external source only: Jesus Christ. "I will build my church of living stones". But He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh unto the Father but by Him.

Once you are born again into the new life that Jesus gives you, you grow in both learning and accountability. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept, like it says in Isaiah. It is impossible to have faith without the Word.

The Church in Acts met in homes for sure. But they took their Bibles with them.

--Alan

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Methinks that thou art a Seventh-day Adventist. The concept of line upon line, precept upon precept is not good. Read it IN CONTEXT:
Isa 28:13 And the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little, that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken,and snared, and taken.

New_Wineskin said:

I am not into following the written code.



Amen , to that .

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Just what do you mean by "the written code?"

If you claim to be a Christian, then like Christ, you need to read and study the Scripture. Remember, He said, repeatedly, "It is written..." He spoke of studying the "Law and the prophets," as the Scriptures of His time were generally refered to. True, He never referenced anything in the New Testament, it hadn't been written yet.

We as the church are all writing our own book of acts. Hearing from and agreeing with the Father who created us. Getting in agreement with others in the church can be trial and error from time to time. Yet that is not that diffrent from the earliest church days.
Go forth and tell the good news!

I think that it just depends on the person. Some people dont mind the idea of going to church while others have thier own reasons for not wanting to go to church because of various reasons.

SNPete said:

I have a question.



I been seeing posts in this section where a poster doesn’t like other Christians pushing the idea one must go to church. OK being pushy is bad. But:



My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?



I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.



My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group.

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In my mind it all depends on what you're calling "church". If you mean that a Christian must go to a special building with a steeple wherein you have multiple departments, a music ministry, a pulpit from which a sermon is preached etc.... I'd say that it's detrimental for many and contrary to the NT pattern.

Now... if you mean "church" as in finding spiritual fellowship (could be in a living room, restraurant, coffee shop, break room, library, etc.) I'd give a resounding YES, Christians need fellowship.

Jesus said,
To have Christian fellowship and edification... all you need is two Christians meeting to lift up Christ, share Scripture, and encourage one another to be like Him.

In the early church Paul wrote (namely to the Corinthians):

Notice that in early church gatherings (as exemplified in the Corinthian church) two or three prophets (anointed teachers) would speak. These guided the meeting teaching the Scriptures and explained how to be like Christ. However, if something was revealed (occured to) one who was sitting and listening whoever was speaking at that moment was to give the brother the floor to speak. Frankly, it was an open and discussion based meeting wherein everyone was permitted to speak and share insight, ask questions regarding the Word, etc. Paul goes as far as to say, "For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged". The point was that the body as a whole took part in these meetings. They didn't sit and listen to a sermon. They were not spectators. They all contributed something and could take the floor if they wished. This encouraged "body ministry" wherein everyone was allowed to walk and speak in the prophetic.

In larger institutional churches of tradition... this isn't possible. You are forced to sit in a building in a row of noses on a pew. You sit and listen to the sermon. None of your questions are answered. You are not to develop your understanding, but rather you are to accept what is being told to you without quesiton. You drop some money in a plate and then go home. No body ministry as Paul described it. Many with prophetic giftings are relegated to the pews and die with their gift churning within them. Only a small few of licensed or "ordained" individuals labor in the Word to guide the body, the body doesn't guide itself as a whole.

If your church (I call them "gatherings") is too large to allow everyone to take the floor and share insight, ask questions, teach, operate in the prophetic giftings, etc.... you're not having "church" as the NT would explain it per se. In fact, the after church fellowship at a restaurant table wherein everyone discusses the passage and the sermon is more akin to NT church practice than the "church service" itself. Frankly, if a Christian attends a traditional church today... they MISS OUT on an authentic NT experience. This is why advocates of house churches ground most ministry and teaching in the house church gatherings, even if they are part of a network and have larger gatherings.

So yes..."church" (as it is defined today) can be spiritually harmful to your spiritual health. Ever wonder why so many "Christians" choose not to go to church? They aren't getting what they need out of the traditional setting. Not to mention, most churches will legalistically milk you for at least 10% of your income.

The church world is spiritually dangerous waters. I thank God for my house church. I also thank God for a revelation of the Kingdom. If I find a Christian brother or sister anywhere... we can break away and "have church" over lunch or on breaks. Now... that's liberty. And that's the NT experience.

SNPETE: My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?
I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.

There is huge false doctrine taught today. Satan is alive and well deceiving church bodies and leadership.

Programs involving well-meaning people who do good works but may know very little of the Word nor have a high regard for it.

Martial arts classes, involving eastern religions, are taught in churches.

Most churches do not practice Mark 16:17,18 which give the signs that follow a believer.

You can see on Christian tv, presenters adorning themselves with Jewish garments and looking up to Judaism instead of fleeing from Jewish law as we are told to do in the New Covenant.

I nearly forgot to mention how much feel-good evangelism is being disseminated. The messages preached seldom offend, they tell little about sin and the judgement in the end times.

Pastors give crowds what they want to hear so they remain popular and grow their membership. I watched this on multiple occasions at the last church I attended.

Also multiple denominations suppress the Holy Spirit with their doctrine


[/quote].

Don't you think " House Groups" was just the latest in a breaking away and People wanting to better express their Christianity? There are many denominations. It's what haqppens every so often. The danger is to suppose that the new is way better and superior to the other. Most denominations were started by Godly people. I favour the Charismatic but am hurt by some of the expression in it.

I " wandered" for years and was quite bitter about the Church as I was now at a distance from it,and realised a lot of the sarcasm directed agaiinst us was earned. but I think it is dangerous to pour scorn on it generally; as it is for God to set up take down. Thiings don't always happen at lightening speed. Before long our lovely new way could just be populated by Pharises of a new kind. I noticed people did not come and see what my problem was ,but often asked my husband after me. But then, how much did " I " do for others?

I hung on for a long time thinking I am NOT going back just because things are tough, but in the end I found my life took a turn for the worse, was spiritually attacked, and felt I couldn't do it alone any longer. I wasn't reading my Bible or praising much at all though by myself.

My worry is - when a Church really takes off in these modern times and gains notice and is featured in the Media it must be 3 times as tough for the Pastor/al Team to keep humble and listening out for what God is saying. The tendency must be to be swept along by " the tidal wave" . So when I look at a quiet Ministry I think, " Well at lest they haven't fallen and gotten greedy or vain"

Hello- In general, there is nothing wrong with going to church. In fact, there is usually a lot of "good" that comes from going to a church. A church is a group/ fellowship of believers- not specifically a building.
Most times there is a leader- be it a formal leader like a pastor or a mediator/facilitator that might be at a home church/ cell group. Somebody still needs to "lead"- even if its just leading 3 people. Without someone in charge, it is typically chaos.
Same thing in a "church" as in and group or mission.

The key is to stay out of false churches that may have leaders that are preaching contrary and sacreligious things.

God Bless,

Ken L.

Nothing.

CGL1023 said:

SNPETE: My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?
I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.

There is huge false doctrine taught today. Satan is alive and well deceiving church bodies and leadership.

Programs involving well-meaning people who do good works but may know very little of the Word nor have a high regard for it.

Martial arts classes, involving eastern religions, are taught in churches.

Most churches do not practice Mark 16:17,18 which give the signs that follow a believer.

You can see on Christian tv, presenters adorning themselves with Jewish garments and looking up to Judaism instead of fleeing from Jewish law as we are told to do in the New Covenant.

I nearly forgot to mention how much feel-good evangelism is being disseminated. The messages preached seldom offend, they tell little about sin and the judgement in the end times.

Pastors give crowds what they want to hear so they remain popular and grow their membership. I watched this on multiple occasions at the last church I attended.

Also multiple denominations suppress the Holy Spirit with their doctrine

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.[/QUOTE]


I like most of your post except the part of "fleeing from Jewish Law". Jesus was a jew, and he practiced things like the Sabbath and Passover, things that today's Christians for the most part don't do.

To be Christian means to be Jewish. The difference is that the Blood of Christ makes us clean.

Thunder 88 said:

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I like most of your post except the part of "fleeing from Jewish Law". Jesus was a jew, and he practiced things like the Sabbath and Passover, things that today's Christians for the most part don't do.

To be Christian means to be Jewish. The difference is that the Blood of Christ makes us clean.[/quote]


I thought when Peter was shown the sheet with animals formerly considered unclean and told he could eat them, really I know referring to the fact gentiles were now to accepted into the Kingdom,we are free from the Old Testament ways of worshipping/serving God. I remember Jesus said " not a jot or title of the law shall pass away from the law til all is fulfilled"

Intheboat said:

I like most of your post except the part of "fleeing from Jewish Law". Jesus was a jew, and he practiced things like the Sabbath and Passover, things that today's Christians for the most part don't do.

To be Christian means to be Jewish. The difference is that the Blood of Christ makes us clean.

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I thought when Peter was shown the sheet with animals formerly considered unclean and told he could eat them, really I know referring to the fact gentiles were now to accepted into the Kingdom,we are free from the Old Testament ways of worshipping/serving God. I remember Jesus said " not a jot or title of the law shall pass away from the law til all is fulfilled"[/QUOTE]


Yes, that part of Peter in Acts is correct. All people and all food were declared clean. That part of the law changed. But the Commandments didn't change, and neither did other things mentioned in the Old Testament, such as redeeming the first born.

[
Yes, that part of Peter in Acts is correct. All people and all food were declared clean. That part of the law changed. But the Commandments didn't change, and neither did other things mentioned in the Old Testament, such as redeeming the first born.[/quote]

No, no, I agree the 10 Commandments will not be revoked! Sorry to be stupid, what do you mean by " redeeming the First Born" please?

I agree the danger of stating we are under grace might imply we are merely to sit passively to receive miraculous power and the indwelling Holy Spirit will automatically burn out our weaknesses. I think when we are " full of the Spirit" we may indeed experience a better side to our personalities but I guess the leading of the Spirit may also be to the Wilderness Experiences where we suffer, even if only mentally, and gain a closer walk. Problem is; there is soooo much IN the Bible . We can bandy verses about and all be correct! I do find though when i contradict a Person's point on this Forum later it makes me think more about their stance and, although it does my head in, I think it is a good thing.