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I could easily say the same about you
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That is not what that verse says. You are twisting the meaning. That which is born of flesh is flesh is natural birth by which we are all born into the world. That which is born of the Spirit is the new birth that converts us to Christ. If you read the context you will see that Nicodemus asked Jesus if we go back into our mother's womb and be born all over again naturally. Jesus' answer to him was what He said in verse 6. You can't take one verse out of its context and make up your own theology out of it.
That is not what the early church thought. Irenaeus (80 years after the apostle Paul) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. He also specifically states "If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others?", see the full passage below.
Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.
This is in answer to what?The word of God presents the following idea, “whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him”.
Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Cornelius was chosen by God to be the first to receive the Holy Spirit, due to his, prayers and good works.
Act 10:4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.
We see this idea in the dialog, between Jesus and his disciples. When talking about who will receive the Holy Spirit, there is a distinction between those who “choose rightly”, and those who “choose to sin”. The first work being:
Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
Joh 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
Romans also states there is no partiality with God, those who do evil will perish, and those who do good receive life.
Rom 2:2-11 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.
1Pe 1:17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;
2Co 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
We see that God gives the light of his words to all people.
Joh_1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
Joh_12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.
We see there is a time when people have that light, as stated “While you have the light”.
Even the phrase, "God lives in an ever-present state" which, yes, you disagree with, demonstrates that you didn't get my point. I don't say he lives in an ever-present state. I do say that one's need to consider him that way is to give validity to human conceptions, and not to God's supremacy. GOD is the default fact. Time, within which we reside and to which we are subjected, is not default fact. God does not reside there, nor is he subject to it, though he can visit it.When I consider the nature and character of God I go by just what the Bible says about Him. If you can find any clear reference that God lives in an ever-present state where the past, present and future are all the same to him, then do it, because I can't.
There are many Scripture references that invite unconverted sinners to come to Christ and receive Him as Saviour. I can't see why He would invite sinners to choose for Christ, if He had already predetermined that they would? Doesn't that work against free personal choice? Why did Joshua tell the Israelites to "choose this day whom you will serve" if God had made their choice already for them. Sounds contradictory to me. Actually, an ever-present God, predeterming people's choices at the same time giving them free choice, sounds like a koo koo bananatown god to me, and not the God of the Bible who does things with sound wisdom and never contradicts Himself. Again, come up with some clear Scriptures that God programs some to be saved and others lost without them having the ability to choose for themselves.
The problem is that when people read into the Bible text things that aren't there (eisegesis) they come up with all sorts of looney tunes stuff.
Although God knows the past, present, and future, I am sure that He does not exist in a simultaneous past/present/future state. No one can exist in that state. And a God who exists in that state is not the God of the Bible. After I tended for a while in the 1970s to go along with Olson's theology, I decided just to accept what the Bible clearly said, that God has foreknowledge, some of which is the result of His future planning, and others that He just knows, because He can look into the future and knows what is going to happen. This is how He can know who is going to receive Christ and who will reject Him. The extreme Calvinist will try and tell us that God knows who is going to be saved because He predetermined them. But there is a problem with that, because predetermination would take the power of choice away from the person, and therefore would contradict many of His promises in Scripture. Predetermination and personal choice are contradictions in fact. No one can predetermine an action for a person and give him the power to choose at the same time. It is the same as locking someone in a room and telling them they are free to go, or telling Siamese twins to go in opposite directions. There was a funny view of that in the movie "Airplane".
So I threw Gordon Olson's theology manual in the rubbish and adopted orthodox Christianity in the form of English Calvinist Puritan theology, which is not the extreme form that some have adopted.
I don't believe that God has predetermined anyone to hell. The invitation to be saved is open to all. Although myriads of souls will reject Christ, myriads will receive Him. Those who reject Him will know at the Judgment that it was because of their choice that they will be facing the eternal wrath of God.
So, just in case you think I am an Open Theist, I assure you that I am not.
There is a point at which the Holy Spirit enlightens the seeker with the truth of the Gospel and gives them "saving faith" to receive Christ and move on to the transformation of conversion to Christ. I'm not totally sure at which point that is. I can't believe that it is before the person believes the Gospel. I think it starts with the preaching of the Gospel, the person hearing and believing it, then the enlightenment happens. When the person is enlightened by the Holy Spirit he receives Christ as Saviour and then as he continues to seek the Lord, the transformation takes place. This transformation is called regeneration or conversion. I think that is the process, and it fits in with Calvinist teaching,
Arminian teaching involves the preaching of the Gospel, the person believing it, choosing to receive Christ as Saviour, as a result he is regenerated and then receives the enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. This means that the work of the Holy Spirit is the result of the person's choice for Christ, and that growth in grace is dependent on continuance of right choices.
Well said. The only part I would differ from is where you agree that God does not "predetermine" anyone to perdition: That is, I would qualify my meaning or use of "predetermine" to apply to mere causation, and not to intent, or at least, not primary intent. I cannot say that God made anyone for no other purpose than to condemn them, but that in making them for that purpose he made them for another purpose (See Romans 9:22-24 and context) or he would not have made them at all.Your choice, but you limit God by your understanding. This is the only statement you made that I would agree with: I don't believe that God has predetermined anyone to hell. The invitation to be saved is open to all. Although myriads of souls will reject Christ, myriads will receive Him. Those who reject Him will know at the Judgment that it was because of their choice that they will be facing the eternal wrath of God.
You say this: "Although God knows the past, present, and future, I am sure that He does not exist in a simultaneous past/present/future state. No one can exist in that state. And a God who exists in that state is not the God of the Bible". I am not quite sure your meaning that He does not exist in a simultaneous past/present/future state, I would think He being Spirit can see or be/ in all these at the same time in knowledge or present seeing as how He can be anywhere He decides to be/ He sees the invisible, and that imaginary God who exists would not be God because there is no other God such as that or could be, I can't believe I am even making this statement: the bible says there is no other God.
You do need to reconsider what the bible actually says about who God actually is, omnipotent, all omniscience and omnipresent. Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
Eph 1:9-11 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Rom 11:33-34 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
Dan 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”
Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM.
You have the choice to believe the word of God or not!
The difference between Adam and Jesus is that Adam was directly created by God as an adult, while Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. Adam was an innocent human being without sin before he disobeyed God. Jesus was born with two natures - a Divine nature and a human nature.
Where did I get that from? The Bible of course!
I did not intend to mean that as it sounds, I meant to only agree with his statement "as I recall it" without looking it up, where he said he did not believe that God is the cause of those who do not believe to go to be condemned, or whatever word was used. God doesn't make anyone go to hell, their unbelief is the cause, this was to be my point/ and if I posted contrary to this; I will blame it on not proof reading or else missing that point, knowing you have a forgiving spirit, thank you for pointing that out.Well said. The only part I would differ from is where you agree that God does not "predetermine" anyone to perdition: That is, I would qualify my meaning or use of "predetermine" to apply to mere causation, and not to intent, or at least, not primary intent. I cannot say that God made anyone for no other purpose than to condemn them, but that in making them for that purpose he made them for another purpose (See Romans 9:22-24 and context) or he would not have made them at all.
Actually, just a 2nd perspective, he is right, you are misreading the verse, there is the natural birth and the new birth as Jesus said, except you be born again(the new birth, conversion, regeneration of the Holy Spirit,) you cannot enter the kingdom of God. As I was taught, read the black letters on the white page. Don't read into it!!!!!!I could easily say the same about youIf it was as you say it would not be regeneration. It would just be spiritual generation. Nicodemus got that but thought it meant physical.
Actually, just a 2nd perspective, he is right, you are misreading the verse, there is the natural birth and the new birth as Jesus said, except you be born again(the new birth, conversion, regeneration of the Holy Spirit,) you cannot enter the kingdom of God. As I was taught, read the black letters on the white page. Don't read into it!!!!!!
Another way of looking at it is that the Holy Spirit works in concert with the Gospel preaching but not in an irresistible manner as Calvinist teach. The sinner's free will cooperation with the Holy Spirit results in both remission of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit. That is why Peter is able to promise remission of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit to those who Repent and are baptized. Salvation and what Calvinist refer to as regeneration are not two separate events.Arminian teaching involves the preaching of the Gospel, the person believing it, choosing to receive Christ as Saviour, as a result he is regenerated and then receives the enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. This means that the work of the Holy Spirit is the result of the person's choice for Christ, and that growth in grace is dependent on continuance of right choices.
It is such in the revelation of Paul.Obviously Adam was not a sinner before he disobeyed God and neither is any other man.
A fleshly nature is not a fallen nature.
We also disdain the notion that some are intrinsically better or worse than others. It is your claim that some choose God without God choosing them, and regenerating them, while others do not, which is to lay the merit for that choice at the feet of the individual chooser, necessarily implying that the one who chooses God is intrinsically better than the others.
Another way of looking at it is that the Holy Spirit works in concert with the Gospel preaching but not in an irresistible manner as Calvinist teach. The sinner's free will cooperation with the Holy Spirit results in both remission of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit. That is why Peter is able to promise remission of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit to those who Repent and are baptized. Salvation and what Calvinist refer to as regeneration are not two separate events.
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them
And this Gospel call is not reserved for a select group of people.
Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,This is echoed in Mark 16:16:
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Although God knows the past, present, and future, I am sure that He does not exist in a simultaneous past/present/future state. No one can exist in that state. And a God who exists in that state is not the God of the Bible. After I tended for a while in the 1970s to go along with Olson's theology, I decided just to accept what the Bible clearly said, that God has foreknowledge, some of which is the result of His future planning, and others that He just knows, because He can look into the future and knows what is going to happen. This is how He can know who is going to receive Christ and who will reject Him. The extreme Calvinist will try and tell us that God knows who is going to be saved because He predetermined them. But there is a problem with that, because predetermination would take the power of choice away from the person, and therefore would contradict many of His promises in Scripture. Predetermination and personal choice are contradictions in fact.
Actually, that is not Biblically correct.No one can predetermine an action for a person and give him the power to choose at the same time. It is the same as locking someone in a room and telling them they are free to go, or telling Siamese twins to go in opposite directions.
There was a funny view of that in the movie "Airplane".
So I threw Gordon Olson's theology manual in the rubbish and adopted orthodox Christianity in the form of English Calvinist Puritan theology, which is not the extreme form that some have adopted.
I don't believe that God has predetermined anyone to hell. The invitation to be saved is open to all. Although myriads of souls will reject Christ, myriads will receive Him. Those who reject Him will know at the Judgment that it was because of their choice that they will be facing the eternal wrath of God.
So, just in case you think I am an Open Theist, I assure you that I am not.
True repentance goes beyond intellectual assent. Baptism of itself does not wash away sin - it is a demonstration of Repentance.I would like to have just marked I agreed but not if one takes Marks 16:16 to mean that baptism is what washing away the sin. That can easily be refuted by scripture as you may know.
Are you saying Jesus was born with a fallen human nature or, as the second Adam (Romans 5:14;The difference between Adam and Jesus is that Adam was directly created by God as an adult, while Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. Adam was an innocent human being without sin before he disobeyed God.
Jesus was born with two natures - a Divine nature and a human nature.
Where did I get that from? The Bible of course!
The difference between Adam and Jesus is that Adam was directly created by God as an adult, while Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. Adam was an innocent human being without sin before he disobeyed God. Jesus was born with two natures - a Divine nature and a human nature.
Where did I get that from? The Bible of course!
Thank you, I asked because as you know there are those that believe its the baptism that washes away the sin and not the repenting and believing the gospel.True repentance goes beyond intellectual assent. Baptism of itself does not wash away sin - it is a demonstration of Repentance.
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