What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Der Alte · Aug 31, 2022

Dizerner said:
Actually... you know what he is saying? He is saying:
a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
That's literally what he says... what he says, is what he is saying.
Justified.
by.
works.
NOT.
by.
faith alone.
Now I understand we feel a tension there with some other verses, and people harmonize it many different ways. The most logical is that the justification is justifying to men or before men. This is untenable in the context, but at least it doesn't violate the plain words. It specifically says "justified," and in context, we can make a case for the kind of justification. But we can't say it has nothing to do with justification. What it says, is what it says—we don't read "the dog is black" and explain it away to say it really means "the cat is white." That's sophistry, right.

Almost anybody can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective vss. out-of-context

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal_3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal_3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Jas_2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Jesus is YHWH · Aug 31, 2022

zoidar said:
I think you might have mistook me for Dizerner...

Oops sorry lol

P1LGR1M · Aug 31, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
Do you really think your one verse ripped from the greater context of scripture below trumps all these that contradict your view ?

Jesus teaching

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments

John the disciple whom Jesus loved teaching:

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

Paul's teaching:

Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound ? May it NEVER be !

Galatians 5
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Colossians 3
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Peters Teaching

1 Peter 1
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

1 Peter 4
As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And we have James 2 and Jude 1 we can add as well to the above list.

hope this helps !!!

Would you clarify what it is you are trying to say here?

Are you trying to teach loss of salvation for failure to live properly after salvation?

God bless.

Receivedgrace · Aug 31, 2022

All Glory To God said:
It's not a question of me having some kind of mental blocks. I consider myself a honest learner in pursuit of the truth. I just don't consider you a reliable person to receive information from on this topic. You do not even know the sequence of the Reformation. You need to humble yourself and put yourself in the place where you need to be, based on your ability: Student, not teacher!

Okay now you are simply avoiding addressing the subject matter.
I never presented myself as a teacher. I have learned enough to recognize biblical infidelity when I see it.
Have ever read Vance's work on the "Other side of Calvinism"? Have you read the counsels of Dort? Since you evidently consider yourself well informed and reliable on Calvinism perhaps you will demonstrate the same to us who are unwashed and ignorant.
Pick your favorite in the TULIP and make your case. Or would you rather I open it up and you can just sit back and snipe?

P1LGR1M · Aug 31, 2022

Dizerner said:
a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

That's literally what he says... what he says, is what he is saying.

Justified.

by.

works.

NOT.

by.

faith alone.

Abraham was justified in a temporal context by faith and works. He was not Eternally Redeemed because he was willing to offer up Isaac, or believed he would receive a son from a woman beyond bearing that would one day bless all families of the earth.

Only The Sacrifice of Christ can justify in an eternal context.

God bless.

Receivedgrace · Aug 31, 2022

Dizerner said:
Actually... you know what he is saying? He is saying:

a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

That's literally what he says... what he says, is what he is saying.

Justified.

by.

works.

NOT.

by.

faith alone.

Now I understand we feel a tension there with some other verses, and people harmonize it many different ways. The most logical is that the justification is justifying to men or before men. This is untenable in the context, but at least it doesn't violate the plain words. It specifically says "justified," and in context, we can make a case for the kind of justification. But we can't say it has nothing to do with justification. What it says, is what it says—we don't read "the dog is black" and explain it away to say it really means "the cat is white." That's sophistry, right.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Abraham's faith was proven by what Abraham did because he believed God. His works did not alter his faith only proved it.
Abraham was saved by his believing what God had told him.

Jesus is YHWH · Aug 31, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
Would you clarify what it is you are trying to say here?

Are you trying to teach loss of salvation for failure to live properly after salvation?

God bless.

No I’m quoting Jesus and the Apostle's on obedience vs living in sin, habitual and willful sinning as a way of life . If Jesus doesn’t make a difference in one’s life before and after a “ profession “ of faith then maybe it’s a dead faith .

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH · Aug 31, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Abraham's faith was proven by what Abraham did because he believed God. His works did not alter his faith only proved it.
Abraham was saved by his believing what God had told him.

Ditto living faith has fruit, good works than accompany said faith otherwise as James said it’s a dead faith that cannot save. Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 2:8-10. Good works are a result of a saving faith .

Receivedgrace · Aug 31, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
Ditto living faith has fruit, good works than accompany said faith otherwise as James said it’s a dead faith that cannot save. Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 2:8-10. Good works are a result of a saving faith .

How often verse 10 is forgotten.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Not created by good works but created unto or for doing good works.

Jesus is YHWH · Aug 31, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
How often verse 10 is forgotten.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Not created by good works but created unto or for doing good works.

Amen most forget the whole purpose of being saved by grace through faith - it has a result - good works .

QvQ · Aug 31, 2022

Dizerner said:
So what do you think God's judgment is based on?

A man cannot forgive himself. A man cannot work his way to heaven.
Do you believe that redemption and salvation are a momentary "second chance" which can be worked and willed by man by believing in Christ one second then worked and willed away through sin the next second?
Do you believe that man, who is condemned without measure or means to correct his sin or condemnation except through Jesus Christ has one moment to say "yea or nay" then he is back in the same fix, alone to work out a continued salvation, to work and will his way to heaven with a mere assurance that if he accomplishes the impossible task of "not sinning" he will earn heaven?
In other words, Is the only message of Christ a promise of pardon and reprieve where a person who believes, is redeemed for a moment or two then has to earn his salvation through will and work?
I believe, a man who was condemned through Adam without measure or means to correct his sin and condemnation is given redemption and salvation through Christ without measure and is given the means to retain his salvation for eternity from the moment of his baptism by the Holy Spirit.

zoidar · Aug 31, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Abraham's faith was proven by what Abraham did because he believed God. His works did not alter his faith only proved it.
Abraham was saved by his believing what God had told him.

What if Abraham hadn't acted on what he believed?

zoidar · Aug 31, 2022

Dizerner said:
We sin while we are repenting, and that is why grace is so amazing.

Where do we find that in the Bible?

Jesus is YHWH · Aug 31, 2022

zoidar said:
Where do we find that in the Bible?

Nowhere !

It’s called an oxymoron.

Clare73 · Aug 31, 2022

zoidar said:
What if Abraham hadn't acted on what he believed?

He would be in sin, as the saved (by faith--not by works, Ephesians 2:8-9) can be by disobedience.

All Glory To God · Aug 31, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
Okay now you are simply avoiding addressing the subject matter.

The subject appears to be a critique of Calvinism. And I caught you in error. Take it like a man and move on.

Receivedgrace said:
I never presented myself as a teacher.

Ok, we'll come back to this part in a minute.

Receivedgrace said:
I have learned enough to recognize biblical infidelity when I see it.

Nope.

Receivedgrace said:
Have ever read Vance's work on the "Other side of Calvinism"?

No. I do not read anti-Calvinist literature.

Receivedgrace said:
Have you read the counsels of Dort?

Yes, I have.

Receivedgrace said:
Since you evidently consider yourself well informed and reliable on Calvinism perhaps you will demonstrate the same to us who are unwashed and ignorant.

All I have done is check you on your error. I never claimed to be well informed on Calvinism.

Receivedgrace said:
Pick your favorite in the TULIP and make your case. Or would you rather I open it . . .

Hmm, not a teacher eh?

Jesus is YHWH · Aug 31, 2022

Here are a few things wrong in the doctrines of grace ( tulip ). We can move to the others after.

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Limited Atonement

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51 and the others above

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

hope this helps !!!

QvQ · Aug 31, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

Calvin's Institutes is a very big book that was reduced in 1905 to TULIP. I have worked through a few of the TULIP and I don't see total depravity is a logical and necessary part of unconditional election. For me, the two are separate issues as are each of the five.

However, by the quote above, if I am convinced of one or more points then by this "all or nothing" the other letters must be self evident. Therefore, by the "necessity" of all or nothing, one being true, all are true. Total Depravity is true, therefore...

If this argument all or nothing is correct, then all 5 are proved on the first T. The T being true, all others naturally follow.

The 5 Points I absolutely agree with are the Sola which is closer to Calvin than TULIP.
Christians are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed by Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone

Receivedgrace · Sep 1, 2022

All Glory To God said:
The subject appears to be a critique of Calvinism. And I caught you in error. Take it like a man and move on.

Ok, we'll come back to this part in a minute.

Nope.

No. I do not read anti-Calvinist literature.

Yes, I have.

All I have done is check you on your error. I never claimed to be well informed on Calvinism.

Hmm, not a teacher eh?

The thread is "what is wrong with Calvinism" is it not?
Nothing personal.
You are entitled to your opinion.
It is a scholarly work but since you have not deigned to read it you could not possibly know.
That's a good thing.
Well let's see if we can both learn something.

I have found that all five points of the TULIP are based on the bible. They are almost always misapplied and violated from their context.

Receivedgrace · Sep 1, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
Here are a few things wrong in the doctrines of grace ( tulip ). We can move to the others after.

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Limited Atonement

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51 and the others above

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

hope this helps !!!

I believe it is Irresistible grace. Understood to be if God has elected you to salvation you cannot resist and you will be saved. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Limited atonement is not true only in the sense that Christ's sacrifice was completely sufficient to save every soul that ever was or will be. It is limited in that the sacrifice is only efficacious for those who come to Christ and receive what Christ offers.

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

my Lord and my God !

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