What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Fervent · Jul 23, 2022

QvQ said:
Fervent
Explain how God could desire one thing and will another, For God desires all men to be saved but wills only some to be saved, explain that please It does sound either schizophrenic:
1) God has two wills, one is desire, the other is what he actually does. God is making choices, selecting between what He actually wants but choosing to do or allow what is against His moral nature

2) Or that God is subject to a higher will.
"God wanted to do that but was unable due to circumstances beyond His control" doesn't sound very biblical to me.

Classic false dilemma, and it only exists if we deny the efficacy of the human will. God's desires may be frustrated only if there is another consideration, not above God but within God. If God is the sole deciding factor in salvation, then the dilemma becomes real and saving theories of "revealed and secret will" become necessary. For God to desire all to be save, yet not all be saved only requires that there be another consideration which allowing for an effective human will makes perfectly tenable. So there is no need for competing wills within God unless we presuppose the ineffectiveness of human wills.

zoidar · Jul 23, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
For what it's worth, both @Clare73 and I agree that one needn't know or even agree with Reformed Theology if they DO 'know' it, for God to save them. Except that I know God's will always has a good reason, I wish I had known it earlier, because it would have saved me many sleepless nights. On the other hand, book-learning isn't the same as experience, and this is how he answered my agonized prayers.

It's sounds to me that you are saying you need to get this right with imputation of righteousness through Christ's obedience to be saved. Maybe you mean something else? I'm not fully sure what you mean with "if they DO know it".

Just two things are needed to be saved, repentance and faith in Christ's death for our sins and his resurrection from the dead. That is what saved me 21th of June 2010.

I see that you were struggling with questions around salvation. Many do! And you found peace through the Reformed faith. I don't know what to say about that. It's good to find where one belongs, even I would wish your found your belonging in another denomination. That's my honest answer.

Clare73 · Jul 23, 2022

1) God has two wills, one is desire, the other is what he actually does.
God is making choices, selecting between what He actually wants but choosing to do or allow what is against His moral nature

Click to expand...

QvQ said:
Explain how God could desire one thing and will another, For God desires all men to be saved but wills only some to be saved, explain that please It does sound either schizophrenic:

God "allowing what is against his moral nature" is contra-Biblical, and is often referred to as the "permissive will" of God.

From post #363:
However, the Bible knows nothing of a "permissive" will of God (Exodus 4:21; Exodus 9:16; 1 Samuel 18:10; 2 Samuel 24:1, 2 Samuel 24:10; 1 Kings 22:23; Job 12:16; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 4:25).
The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey, but disobeys, and
the secret will of God, which God has decided it is best for us not to know (Deuteronomy 29:29),
and which is always done (Isaiah 46:10-11).

The Bible knows nothing of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen (Exodus 4:11b, Deuteronomy 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:7; 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 1 Kings 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah 53:10, 54:16; Jeremiah 44:27-28; Lamentations 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zechariah 11:16; Matthew 10:29; John 9:2-3; Revelation 17:17).
The God of the Bible is sovereign. Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Isaiah 53:10; Daniel 11:36; Acts 2:23, 3:18, 4:28, 13:48),
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8, 17:8).

The Bible knows nothing of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2 Chronicles 20:6; Job 9:12, Job 42:2; Isaiah 14:27; Daniel 4:35),
nor of a God whose plans are conditioned or determined by (Exodus 9:16, Acts 4:28) the actions of men,
nor who sustains loss because of (John 6:37; Acts 13:48) the actions of men.
The Bible knows only a God who ordains or decrees (not permits) everything (Lamentations 3:37),
down to the last detail (Psalms 50:11, Psalms 139:16, Psalms 147:4; Matthew 10:30).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.

For the answer to man's objection to this, see Romans 9:19-21.

2) Or that God is subject to a higher will.

"God wanted to do that but was unable due to circumstances beyond His control"
doesn't sound very biblical to me.

Because it is not. . .as demonstrated above.

iwbswiaihl · Jul 23, 2022

Clare73 said:
God "allowing what is against his moral nature" is contra-Biblical, and is often referred to as the "permissive will" of God.

From post #363:
However, the Bible knows nothing of a "permissive" will of God (Exodus 4:21; Exodus 9:16; 1 Samuel 18:10; 2 Samuel 24:1, 2 Samuel 24:10; 1 Kings 22:23; Job 12:16; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 4:25).
The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey, but disobeys, and
the secret will of God, which God has decided it is best for us not to know (Deuteronomy 29:29),
and which is always done (Isaiah 46:10-11).

The Bible knows nothing of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen (Exodus 4:11b, Deuteronomy 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:7; 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 1 Kings 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah 53:10, 54:16; Jeremiah 44:27-28; Lamentations 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zechariah 11:16; Matthew 10:29; John 9:2-3; Revelation 17:17).
The God of the Bible is sovereign. Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Isaiah 53:10; Daniel 11:36; Acts 2:23, 3:18, 4:28, 13:48),
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8, 17:8).

The Bible knows nothing of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2 Chronicles 20:6; Job 9:12, Job 42:2; Isaiah 14:27; Daniel 4:35),
nor of a God whose plans are conditioned or determined by (Exodus 9:16, Acts 4:28) the actions of men,
nor who sustains loss because of (John 6:37; Acts 13:48) the actions of men.
The Bible knows only a God who ordains or decrees (not permits) everything (Lamentations 3:37),
down to the last detail (Psalms 50:11, Psalms 139:16, Psalms 147:4; Matthew 10:30).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.

For the answer to man's objection to this, see Romans 9:19-21.

Because it is not. . .as demonstrated above.

So your conclusion by saying this: It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do. The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do. Which means from this point of view that God caused Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil! So that the elect would be the only ones saved, is that right?

John 1: 9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

Clare73 · Jul 23, 2022

zoidar said:
It's sounds to me that you are saying you need to get
this right with imputation of righteousness through Christ's obedience to be saved.

"Faith reckoned (imputed) as righteousness," and "righteousness imputed (reckoned) through faith"
are one and the same thing.

imputed = reckoned = accounted = credited

zoidar · Jul 23, 2022

Clare73 said:
"Faith reckoned (imputed) as righteousness," and "righteousness imputed (reckoned) through faith"
are one and the same thing.

I saw you wrote that in the other post. I have not come to respond yet. Still thinking of what to say.

QvQ · Jul 23, 2022

Fervent said:
For God to desire all to be save, yet not all be saved only requires that there be another consideration which allowing for an effective human will makes perfectly tenable. So there is no need for competing wills within God unless we presuppose the ineffectiveness of human wills.

Again, God desires, wants everyone to be saved but due to circumstances beyond His control or due to circumstances that He created He acts or allows to act against His nature.

I would say there is blame shifting. The idea of free will means that man is solely responsible for his own death and punishment. Or maybe the Devil made him do it, being a higher power that can take control of man's will. God is a loving God in a watch tower, standing aside while the entire tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, unfolds.
Is this your understanding?
I would admit to God's plan, according to His Will with all the actors being at His absolute command and acting according to His Will; although according to Schopenhauer. God doesn't exactly concern Himself with choices of ice cream but maybe in the design of the taste buds, God has predetermined that I should desire, will and choose chocolate.

misput · Jul 23, 2022

Fervent said:
Romans 9 is a great example of how Calvinist's fail to properly resolve the context of the text. The clear background of Romans 8-11 is Jewish history especially prophetically, and so how the Jews understood the references must be resolved to understand what is meant. The Calvinist will tell you that Jacob and Esau refer to the individuals and God's pre-existent selection of them, but that's not what's going on. Instead it is referring to the national identities, with the central point revolving around God's faithfulness. When God says "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy," this does not imply an exclusive claim to God's mercy but the very opposite. This is shown with the nations of Israel and Edom, which those who know the history of will recognize that God blessed Edom with lands of their own despite Esau's rejection of his birthright. While the Calvinist will tell you Romans 8-9 is about Justifying God's rejection of Israel, it's instead a declaration of God's continuing faithfulness to His covenant through a re-shaping in spite of the apparent despising of Israel's birthright in their rejection of the Messiah. Where it speaks of God's hardening of the people, it is not a matter of His instigation of their rejection but His strengthening their resolve just as He did with Pharoah hardening him so that he would not shrink from the judgment that God visited upon Egypt and release the Israelites from fear. Altogether, Romans 8-11 lays out how the revelation of Christ is not an overthrow of the covenant with Israel but its very purpose and a demonstration of God's faithfulness to those who love Him.

Great understanding that does not leave God in a bad light. God is no respecter of persons should always be in our thoughts when we are trying to understand these things.

Clare73 · Jul 23, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
So your conclusion by saying this: It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do. The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do. Which means from this point of view that God caused Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil!
So that the elect would be the only ones saved, is that right?

Actually, I was referring to the Biblical difference between divine foreknowledge
(God knowing in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen) and
man's wrong notions of divine foreknowledge (God knows in advance what men will choose to do).

Sounds like you are talking about:
John 6:65 - "No one can come to Jesus unless the Father has enabled him.

John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me."

John 6:39 - "I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me."

Do all come?

John 1: 9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

The "right" to become children of God here refers to adoption, whereby the adopted (born again) have the same rights, are co-heirs (Romans 8:17) to the inheritance of Jesus Christ, as the natural born.

zoidar · Jul 23, 2022

QvQ said:
Again, God desires, wants everyone to be saved but due to circumstances beyond His control or due to circumstances that He created He acts or allows to act against His nature.

I would say there is blame shifting. The idea of free will means that man is solely responsible for his own death and punishment. Or maybe the Devil made him do it, being a higher power that can take control of man's will. God is a loving God in a watch tower, standing aside while the entire tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, unfolds.
Is this your understanding?
I would admit to God's plan, according to His Will with all the actors being at His absolute command and acting according to His Will; although according to Schopenhauer. God doesn't exactly concern Himself with choices of ice cream but maybe in the design of the taste buds, God has predetermined that I should desire, will and choose chocolate.

I may desire chocolate, want to choose chocolate, still choose vanilla.

zoidar · Jul 23, 2022

Clare73 said:
Actually, I was referring to the Biblical difference between divine foreknowledge (God knowing in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen) and man's wrong notions of divine foreknowledge (God knows in advance what men will choose to do).

Foreknowledge to me doesn't mean God knew in advance what people would choose. There was no time so how could it be in advance? "Foreknowledge" to me means God knows outside of time what people in time will choose

Clare73 · Jul 23, 2022

zoidar said:
I may desire chocolate, want to choose chocolate, still choose vanilla.

You still chose what you preferred, for whatever reason.

Fervent · Jul 23, 2022

QvQ said:
Again, God desires, wants everyone to be saved but due to circumstances beyond His control or due to circumstances that He created He acts or allows to act against His nature.

I would say there is blame shifting. The idea of free will means that man is solely responsible for his own death and punishment. Or maybe the Devil made him do it, being a higher power that can take control of man's will. God is a loving God in a watch tower, standing aside while the entire tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, unfolds.
Is this your understanding?
I would admit to God's plan, according to His Will with all the actors being at His absolute command and acting according to His Will; although according to Schopenhauer. God doesn't exactly concern Himself with choices of ice cream but maybe in the design of the taste buds, God has predetermined that I should desire, will and choose chocolate.

You seem to be operating under a false idea about omnipotence which allows God to do anything irrespective of consequences, but such a view undermines God as presented in the Bible rather than magnifying Him. God choosing to create men who may freely reject Him necessitates that He not enforce His highest desire. No one said the devil may overtake man's will, nor any other supernatural being.

Rather than magnifying God by making Him the meticulous overseer of every detail of creation, you diminish Him to monstrous levels making His will to save tantamount to an arbitrary lottery and make a mockery of the notion of justice, love, and all other perfections of God.

I repeat once again that the Calvinist view is odious morally(rendering the evil God creates not simply instrumental but intended for the sake of evil), illogical in its adoption of a self-refuting view of the human will, and Scripturally unsound since it is built on ahistoric, contextually bankrupt readings of proof texts.

zoidar · Jul 23, 2022

Clare73 said:
You still chose what you preferred, for whatever reason.

What do you mean with "preferred"?

Clare73 · Jul 23, 2022

zoidar said:
Foreknowledge to me doesn't mean God knew in advance what people would choose. There was no time so how could it be in advance? "Foreknowledge" to me means God knows outside of time what people in time will choose

However, that is not the meaning of divine foreknowledge as it is used in Scripture, where it is not about knowing what men will do, but knowing what God has decreed from before the foundations of the world.

Clare73 · Jul 23, 2022

zoidar said:
What do you mean with "preferred"?

Its dictionary definition. . .

QvQ · Jul 23, 2022

zoidar said:
I may desire chocolate, want to choose chocolate, still choose vanilla.

You are out of luck. We have no ice cream today.

zoidar · Jul 23, 2022

QvQ said:
You are out of luck. We have no ice cream today.

Bummer!

zoidar · Jul 23, 2022

Clare73 said:
Its dictionary definition. . .

Aha, I prefer chocolate, but I still choose vanilla.

QvQ is out of ice cream anyway...

QvQ · Jul 23, 2022

Fervent said:
morally(rendering the evil God creates not simply instrumental but intended for the sake of evil),

That is how I am reading your posts.
I believe that God created all things, good and evil however things work together for the Glory of God.

As for man's free will, Zoider desired chocolate, wanted chocolate but chose vanilla, but we have no ice cream today.
What man can desire, (which is want, God is not wanting),
what man can will is a very limited set of immediately available choices and is subject to God's will. (If the good Lord's willing and the creek don't rise)

Clare73 · Jul 23, 2022

zoidar said:
Bummer!

We have some at my house. . .y'all come!

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

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