What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Clare73 said:

Absolutely!

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I'm not sure...

You don't think this is the moment of salvation?

So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;
— Acts 9:17-18

John Mullally said:

Responding in humility to the conviction of the Holy Spirit is hardly self-righteous boasting. Be aware that Acts 7:51 shows that men can resist the Holy Spirit - so there is no irresistible grace.

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Yes, most graces are resistible. That is hardly the point. The grace of God in regenerating a person, to include generating salvific faith, (real faith), is done to a totally unable will, without involving a decision by that disabled will, REBIRTH, changing the will, changing the disposition.

Remember, again, that the sinful flesh cannot submit (humbly or otherwise) to God's law. Responding in humility to the conviction of the Holy Spirit is not real, if it is not the Holy Spirit in you doing it in you. The sinful flesh cannot please God. And without faith, it is impossible to please God.

RickReads said:

I`m serving God by repenting for my sins. How does that work?

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How does what work?

RickReads said:

Ok, so throw stones because my language wasn`t strong enough for a Calvinist taste.

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Your narrative, including the language you use, colors your claim. It can make it seem reasonable to think God is tame, when in fact he isn't.

zoidar said:

How Martin got convicted? I can tell you how I got convicted. It happened over months of different "coincidences". I finally got to the conclusion what had happened over the years couldn't be merely coincidences. I was very confused, but started to believe in the Bible and I realized being a sinner. But since I had been into Buddhism etc. I thought I wasn't welcome to God. I got home from work one day convinced I wasn't going to heaven (truly convicted). So I prayed in despair to God that if He would forgive me I would give Him my life. And right there and then I experienced regeneration, God forgiving me and changing my heart. I was a new person.

You will most likely say God did it all and free will had no part in it. How can I prove free will was involved? I can't! I just believe it was. You will probably say I was regenerated already when I realized I was a sinner? I don't believe that. Though what we can agree on is that I was lead by God to salvation, and I wouldn't have gone there on my own. Exacly how God did it, and what battle between forces of evil and forces of good had taken place over my life, I can never know. I'm just thankful God was merciful to me that day and forgave me.

This of course is the very short story cutting out a lot of details.

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"Right then and there" you experienced something. That doesn't mean that God had not already regenerated you.

Clare73 said:

Don't hear anyone complaining about imputing Christ's righteousness to us.

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Lol, I've heard that one too, actually; because, they insist, if imputing Christ's righteousness to us is done without consulting us for our permission, it is forcing.

Watchman1 said:

There is a major difference between being enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and actually having the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is bad theology to say that a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they believe the Gospel. What! An atheist is born again of the Spirit of God while not believing that Jesus Christ died for his sins? How does that work? Sounds like loony tunes theology to me.

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It is also somewhat of a misrepresentation of what @Clare73 is saying. She is talking logical cause-and-effect. Not time-sequence. God's acts are not governed by time. He MUST regenerate, according to Scripture, those whose every inclination is enmity toward God, because they cannot turn to him and will not, of their own will. They MUST be born again. So too, believing the Gospel: Salvific faith is the gift of God and the work of the Spirit of God in us. We believe, not because we generate the faith, but because the Holy Spirit does it in us. Not only because he waits a few days after regeneration, but it is an immediate effect of regeneration. One might even say "concurrent with it". It MUST happen, not only because without faith it is impossible to please God, but because it is something for which the Spirit of God regenerates us. By grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves —it is the gift of God.

zoidar said:

It's the Biblical understanding of deed that is important. We are talking about if repentance is a deed in for example Paul's writings. If we today say repentance is a deed is of less importance, since then we mean something else than Paul does when he says "ergon".

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
— Philippians 2:12-13

If we look that this passage you quoted it talks about those that already have received the Holy Spirit. In them God is at work for His will and pleasure. It has nothing to with repentance and regeneration.

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You've lost me. I don't follow your point.

Clare73 said:

Paul is the pattern. . .

How was Paul reborn?

Did he believe that Jesus died for his sin when he got knocked off that horse?

No, he did not. . .his faith in Jesus Christ was the result of God's work, not its cause.

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Let me get this straight. So Paul is the pattern for all of us? For you? So, are you an Apostle of Christ, called to plant churches in pagan countries, and have a signs and wonders ministry? If not, then how can Paul be part of a pattern in some things and not others?

Greg Cheney said:

You claim that he gives you a desire to choose whatever you choose. One step backward, same conclusion.

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So either way around you go, at the very least God knew, but created anyhow. So there is no need for a doctrine of 'uncaused free will' decisions. That doctrine cannot excuse God for what he did.

RickReads said:

I was addressing the fact that they had chosen their path before God intervened i.e. Pharoah who hardened his heart on his own before God began affecting his decisions.

if you want to debate causation go see Cormack though I dunno why you would want another dose of what he has for you. LOL!

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He was wrong the first time, and failed. I don't see him succeeding in the next attempt by the same tactics.

Clare73 said:

The order is irrelevant. It is the elements that are common.

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Not to butt in, but order is most important, Luke 13:3 except you repent you perish. Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out. Luke 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

How could one be regenerated without faith? Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

One post said: Remember, again, that the sinful flesh cannot submit (humbly or otherwise) to God's law. Responding in humility to the conviction of the Holy Spirit is not real, if it is not the Holy Spirit in you doing it in you. The sinful flesh cannot please God. And without faith, it is impossible to please God.

So one is brought to being regenerated without faith, so that they can have faith, is that it? Or is it without faith one can be regenerated? Seem to contradict the without faith it is impossible to please Him, doesn't it? I would rather think it's the manner of receiving faith and this is surely done before one has faith, so what produces the faith in our Lord, I would suggest it's the working of Holy Spirit on the hearts of the lost by the word of God, and that's scripture, is it not? John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. These seem to show that it is the word of God working in our hearts to either come to believe in the Lord and be saved, or after salvation, the Holy Spirit uses the word and guides into his truth through the word and we must believe it and apply to grow in the knowledge and will of God. Because as John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing". Plus another most important factor: Phil 2:13 for it is God working in you to will and to of His good pleasure, because Eph 2:10 we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God has before ordained before the world began. Being transformed by the renewing of our mind is done by the guiding of the Holy Spirit through his word, for without him we can DO NOTHING, and I add this: pleasing to Him. So I advise all Christians to listen to your thoughts and examine them, if it is good and scriptural, thank God for guiding you into all truth, don't just say, I am glad I thought of that, I have learned it is the Holy Spirit working in us, but examine the applications of the thoughts, the old nature never stops trying to rule your walk, but greater is He who is in you, than he that is in the world. Hallelujah, or old me?

Watchman1 said:

Let me get this straight. So Paul is the pattern for all of us? For you? So, are you an Apostle of Christ, called to plant churches in pagan countries, and have a signs and wonders ministry? If not, then how can Paul be part of a pattern in some things and not others?

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Aren't you going a little overboard? It's almost like you are missing @Clare73 's point on purpose.

Mark Quayle said:

You've lost me. I don't follow your point.

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We can agree or disagree that repentance is a deed, but what does it matter? What matter is what Paul refers to when he says "deed". If we don't understand what Paul means by "deed" we can't understand his writing. If the Bible says repentance isn't a "deed" it isn't a deed from Biblical language, whatever we now may think about it. Got the point?

It's the same with "pleasing to God" and "grace". What does the Bible refer to as pleasing to God?
How does the Bible describe grace? We can't assume that it means this or this without looking how the Bible uses it. That's the point.

iwbswiaihl said:

So one is brought to being regenerated without faith, so that they can have faith, is that it? Or is it without faith one can be regenerated? Seem to contradict the without faith it is impossible to please Him, doesn't it?

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Have you forgotten who it is that generates salvific faith? and the verses that tell us that it is not of ourselves? Have you not considered that regeneration is the means by which faith is given. Faith is the work of the Spirit of God in the person, necessarily generated by the Spirit (from our POV we might be tempted to say that "the Spirit can't help himself —he has to generate faith" for lack of a better way to describe what happens). The Spirit of God put there by God, for God's sake, to make us his dwelling place, changes us, changes our very nature, and I don't mean just makes us want better good, and access to God, etc, but that WE are changed, to a one-ness with God, by the Spirit. All our subsequent conscious obediences are still subconsciously by the Spirit. It is not just our choices, but him working in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure (i.e. according to his choice).

But consider 1 John 1:9. The Greek grammatical construction implies an awkward English rendering something like, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins..." Completed action in the past, contingent on our current confession.

You want a repentance that results in regeneration? Have it your way, but the regeneration already happened, or the repentance would not be in faith.

If we do not have faith, we do not have the Spirit. If we do not have the Spirit we do not have regeneration. Both are the necessary result of the Spirit. But without the Spirit we do not have faith, therefore, we also do not have regeneration. But if the Spirit makes his home in us, we have regeneration by definition, and so we also have faith. Both are necessary results of God making his home in us. Neither are the result of the will of man.

iwbswiaihl said:

Not to butt in, but order is most important, Luke 13:3 except you repent you perish. Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out. Luke 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

How could one be regenerated without faith? Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

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And how does one 'get' that faith that he does not himself generate? The same Spirit of God that generates that faith in the person, necessarily regenerates the person in whom he has taken up residence. In fact, his "installment" IS that regeneration. The person in whom it happens is no longer the same, but in a real way, one with God now. The new birth has happened, the new life is begun.

Mark Quayle said:

Have you forgotten who it is that generates salvific faith? and the verses that tell us that it is not of ourselves? Have you not considered that regeneration is the means by which faith is given. Faith is the work of the Spirit of God in the person, necessarily generated by the Spirit (from our POV we might be tempted to say that "the Spirit can't help himself —he has to generate faith" for lack of a better way to describe what happens). The Spirit of God put there by God, for God's sake, to make us his dwelling place, changes us, changes our very nature, and I don't mean just makes us want better good, and access to God, etc, but that WE are changed, to a one-ness with God, by the Spirit. All our subsequent conscious obediences are still subconsciously by the Spirit. It is not just our choices, but him working in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure (i.e. according to his choice).

But consider 1 John 1:9. The Greek grammatical construction implies an awkward English rendering something like, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins..." Completed action in the past, contingent on our current confession.

You want a repentance that results in regeneration? Have it your way, but the regeneration already happened, or the repentance would not be in faith.

If we do not have faith, we do not have the Spirit. If we do not have the Spirit we do not have regeneration. Both are the necessary result of the Spirit. But without the Spirit we do not have faith, therefore, we also do not have regeneration. But if the Spirit makes his home in us, we have regeneration by definition, and so we also have faith. Both are necessary results of God making his home in us. Neither are the result of the will of man.

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No sense kicking the ball around when someone does not read exactly what the scripture say, Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. It's the word of God that the Holy Spirit is using to produce the faith in the lost and afterwards the saved so that they can grow thereby. I showed the scripture which say this word for word. So I am content to let every tub set on its own bottom, and all who may read our post will have to make their own decision according the what the word of God actually says in print. Have a great night.

Mark Quayle said:

And how does one 'get' that faith that he does not himself generate? The same Spirit of God that generates that faith in the person, necessarily regenerates the person in whom he has taken up residence. In fact, his "installment" IS that regeneration. The person in whom it happens is no longer the same, but in a real way, one with God now. The new birth has happened, the new life is begun.

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You started well but then began to read into it your view, you drifted from what the verses actually said, that is where you go wrong. I am not and thought I made it very clear, the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth by the word of God in the scriptures, Eph 2:8 For by grace are you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Heb 11:6 without faith it is impossible to please for they that come to him must believe that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seed Him. I am content to let each come to their own conclusions who read our posts. Have a great night.