what is WOF???

[LynneClomina]

hi, could somebody define what the Word of Faith movement is, and how it differs from "just" charismatic/pentecostal?

for that matter, what exactly differs between charismatic and pentecostal???

Lynne

 

[SavedByGrace3]

WOF believes:
1. Identification. We have the spirit of Christ in us at the new birth. The old man (that old fallen spirit we were born with) is totally gone. This "new man" has the nature of Christ. This nature is righteous with "the righteousness of God". If we follow the inclinations of the reborn spirit in us, we cannot sin. This is the key teaching presented in E.W. Kenyons books written back in the 40s.
Key Verses:
2 Corin 5:17-21
Gal 2:20
1 Jn 2

2. Separation of "Relationship" from "Fellowship".
We as believers have a relationship with the Father by virtue of the new birth. We have fellowship with the Father based on our walking in the light where He resides.
Relationship (the new birth) is provided by the resurrestion of Jesus from the dead, where we were raised up with Him. Fellowship is based on the cross of Christ where He was made a curse for us thereby redeeming us from the curse of the law and all the curses listed in Deut 28. If we step out of the light (by sin) then we break fellowship, but not relationship. Walking out of fellowship causes us to lose the benefits of the table of the Lord such as healing, prayers being answered, and freedom from demonic oppression.
Key verses:
1 John 5
1 John 1
Gal 6:7-8
Gal 3:13

3. Faith is the result of revelation, not a decision on our part. This concept is commonly called "revelation knowledge" which simply means the act of Christ speaking his Word into our spirits and thereby imparting "faith" to us. This is how we believe. This is where "Word of Faith" comes from. Faith is a two part action, believing and speaking. When someone believes something in their heart and says the same thing with their mouth, they have whatever they say.
Key Verses:
Rom 10:9-17
Eph 1:16-20
Mark 11:20-23
Heb 11
Rom 4:17-20

WOF pretty much believes all the Charismatic teaching except it teaches we receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit by faith regardless of any manifestations. We believe we are "good enough" to receive the Holy Spirit at the moment we are born again.

You do not hear a lot about the above teachings, except for # 3. But #1 is by far the most important.

For more detailed information, see this thread:
"25 years in the Word of Faith, the truth"
http://www.christianforums.com/t17159

 

[Godz Marine]

This is the key teaching presented in E.W. Kenyons books written back in the 40s.

And preached without wavering by Kenneth Hagin from the 40's until his passing last year.

 

[LynneClomina]

hmmm, thanks.

point 1) check, although i do believe that though the old man is completely gone from within me, it is chained to me like a rotting corpse and affects me. paul talked about that somewhere...

point 2) check, totally totally totally.

point 3) check, i think... i know that when things dont happen its generally our lack of faith... i see the "mustard seed" analogy as saying that, boy, we really do have LITTLE faith, dont we, if that mountain wont move.... and that head faith doesnt cut it, it has to be spoken to our heart by God, and no matter how many times we tell ourself something it wont make us have that faith.... just cant do it on our own.

i do believe, however, that God works ALL ALL ALL things according to the purpose of his will.... he is NOT the author of sin, our wickedness is... but that he uses our failings and weaknesses toward his purposes... no matter how hard i fall, He is not stymied... nothing is wasted in the kingdom of God...

i believe the baptism of the Holy spirit comes at the time of being born again, as well.... the question comes when you see all those "christians" that are NOT born again...

i thank God i AM born again....

but its NOT because im good enough

blessings, guys, and thanks again!
Lynne

 

[Andrew]

WOF to me simply means mixing the Word of God with faith.

 

[victoryword]

I think some [critics] would distinguish Word-Faith with the following:

1. Jesus Died Spiritually doctrine - This is what many who are opposed to Faith Teachers like to harp on and claim is a teaching invented by this movement (or the claim is that E. W. Kenyon created this doctrine). Research has shown that Many Evangelicals, both past and present believe that Jesus was separated from the Father when He became sin (Matt. 27:46; 2 Cor. 5:21).

Kenyon (and later Copeland) developed unique phrases and language to teach what many evangelicals have affirmed for centuries. Kenyon taught that Jesus took on Satan's nature upon the cross. The great reformer, Martin Luther, taught that He became a transgressor and sinner upon the cross. Kenyon taught that Jesus suffered in hell (Acts 2:25-31), and so did another reformer, John Calvin. Kenyon and Copeland taught something a little more unique that I cannot find in any historical records (nor can I find any solid support in Scripture for) which is that Jesus' spirit was dragged into hell by demons and He was tormented until the Father said, "Enough". However, C. H. Spurgeon did make a statement close to the this. Finally, Kenyon taught that Christ was born again after suffering for our sins. One can support this with a few Scriptures but since there is not a whole lot of historical backing, the critics jump on this like vultures to a bloody piece of meat.

2. The Little Gods Doctrine - Critics accuse the WoF movement of repeating the lie that the serpent told Eve in the garden of Eden. Some also accuse us of teaching Mormonism. Both are untrue. More honest critics dispute this accusation, recognizing that the Faith Teachers are not claiming that man becomes a "god" literally (as Mormons teach). It's the WoF's unique way of pointing out that we are children of God who have partaken of His divine nature (2 Pet. 1:3, 4) and who are made to rule and reign with Christ (Rom. 5:17).

Historical support is found in the writings of many church fathers, Martin Luther, and even some Faith-Cure and Classic Pentecostal writings such as A. J. Gordon, A. B. Simpson, and John G. Lake. Even in recent times we have the late C. S. Lewis who often unashamedly spoke of Christians as "gods" and the Eastern Orthodox church teaches what is called the "Deification of Man."

3. The Prosperity Doctrine - The Faith Teachers emphasize a strong belief in the fact that God wants His people to prosper. Some admittedly go to an unnecessary extreme in this area, but they still teach a truth that used to be neglected by the majority of believers, though some outside of the movement are now teaching at least teaching that God wants to supply the needs of His children. The Faith Teachers teach that God wants to go beyond even that and give God's people more than enough - for their own needs and to support the gospel.

Again, the Faith Teachers are far from the first. Most of Protestantism from Martin Luther to the Puritans taught some form of prosperity in reaction to the Roman Catholics unBiblical "poverty as a blessing" gospel. The Holiness Movement began to teach on prosperity seriously in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Some Pentecostals also began teaching this (but too many neglected it and treated themselves and their pastors poorly). Some Baptists such as John R. Rice and some Calvinists such as A. W. Pink also emphasized prosperity as the will of God for His people. So did the great apostle of faith, George Mueller.

The critic would like to teach that the WoF invented this one as well, but research and history goes against them.

4. Faith in Faith and/or Faith as a Force - Some of the Faith Teachers such as Kenyon (and later Hagin and Copeland) like using unique language to promote BIblical truth. "Faith in your Faith" was just another way of saying that one must learn to trust God for his or herself. Instead of depending on someone else to do your believing and praying for you, you should have confidence in your own ability to believe God and trust Him. Of course, critics twist this phrase to make it appear as if the Faith Teachers are teaching "faith" as if it were either some type of "god" itself or if it was a "force" just like you see on "Star Wars".

However, the late E. Stanley Jones, a missionary to India and one lauded as a hero by many Evangelicals, also made similar statements about "faith in your faith." Furthermore, many great well known Evangelicals of the late 1800s often referred to faith as a "force" to include Charles Spurgeon among many. A. B. Simpson used this phrase MANY times in his writings and teachings. Many Evangelicals also believed that God Himself was a God who exercised "faith."

So the above are some things that critics will focus on when attempting to distinguish WoF from the rest of Christiandom (including Pentecostals and other Charismatics). Therefore, I list these things so that you will have an answer for when you are challenged in these areas.

Also, pray for me. I want to write a book dealing with these answers to Word-Faith critics. Those who have been to my webpage know my passion for Word-Faith apologetics, but there is so much more to tackle on these issues.

 

[pmarquette]

hmmm, thanks.

point 1) check, although i do believe that though the old man is completely gone from within me, it is chained to me like a rotting corpse and affects me. paul talked about that somewhere...
when some one murdered another in that time , they tied the body of the person who was killed to his murderer .... who had to drag the corpse with him ... and because of the corpse , he too died ... Paul speaks of the old nature in this context : let not the memories of the past , corrupt your future ...
point 2) check, totally totally totally.

point 3) check, i think... i know that when things dont happen its generally our lack of faith... i see the "mustard seed" analogy as saying that, boy, we really do have LITTLE faith, dont we, if that mountain wont move.... and that head faith doesnt cut it, it has to be spoken to our heart by God, and no matter how many times we tell ourself something it wont make us have that faith.... just cant do it on our own.
most people blow this passage ... the mustard seed is your faith , or as paul speaks "a measure of faith " ; that with baptism , confirmation , prayer , fellowship ... seed sprouts and bears fruith , James speaks of christian works .. matthew 25.32-42

i do believe, however, that God works ALL ALL ALL things according to the purpose of his will.... he is NOT the author of sin, our wickedness is... but that he uses our failings and weaknesses toward his purposes... no matter how hard i fall, He is not stymied... nothing is wasted in the kingdom of God...
good ! genesis 50.20 , romans 8.28

i believe the baptism of the Holy spirit comes at the time of being born again, as well.... the question comes when you see all those "christians" that are NOT born again...
mental assent ... know of him ... work of baptism - separation , declaration ; work of the laying on of hands ( acts 19.5 ) impartation of baptism of spirit ( confirm - Mk 16.10 ) word / faith within you ... evidence
i thank God i AM born again....

but its NOT because im good enough
correct ! 1 John 1.8-9
blessings, guys, and thanks again!
Lynne

 

[orthotomeo]

Didaskolos wrote:

The old man (that old fallen spirit we were born with) is totally gone.

Where does a Christian's sin come from, then?

 

[Jim B]

Andrew suggested

WOF to me simply means mixing the Word of God with faith.

Andrew, Are you saying that non-WOFers do not mix the Word of God with faith?

 

[pmarquette]

Andrew suggested


Andrew, Are you saying that non-WOFers do not mix the Word of God with faith?

some of this becomes the " strong meat " of the word Paul refers to ;
or splitting hairs , dotting "i's " and crossing "t's "

A better response is " expectancy of results " ... as mark said in mark 16.20 God confirms His word with signs and wonders following ... He affirms the person operating in faith , anoints the person doing His work , enables the person he calls to minister , pray , preach , teach , or heal ... ( Isaiah 61.1-3 ; Isaiah 55.10 )

Genesis 1 " and God spoke " : created a thought , believed the thought , expected the thought to manifest ; rejoiced in the thought fulfilled ; and blessed what came to pass , pronouced it good ...

same thought in Mark 11.23-4 ; 1 John 5.14 speak to the mountains in your life , as God instructed Ezekiel to prophesy over the dry bones ( chap 37 ). and expect what you speak ( given you by God ) to come to pass ...
by faith , in His Word , Authority , and ministry within you ...

 

[pmarquette]

Didaskolos wrote:



Where does a Christian's sin come from, then?

temptation , trials , situations , circumstances ... " opportunities to fail "
or be " offended " -- James 1.1 , 1 Peter 1.7

We still sin , fall short , loose sight .... but sin should be a lost battle , no longer a way of life , no longer entered into without remorse , guilt , a fight

1 John 1.8-9 when you sin , He is faithful and just to forgive you

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Didaskolos wrote:

Where does a Christian's sin come from, then?

Good queston Friend...

Let's first esablish where it does not come from:

It does not come from the reborn spirit of a believer:
1Jo 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
My version of the NT (I have been working on for years) does not have "whosoever" rather is has "whatsoever", which is closer to the Greek. The part of you that was born again and has the seed of God is your reborn spirit. You reborn spirit cannot sin.

The reborn spirit of the believer is a good tree, and cannot put forth evil fruit:
Mat 7:16-18
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

We were created in Christ Jesus for the purpose of performing good works:
Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We can no more sin from our spirit that Jesus could.

Where does sin in the believer come from?
From the flesh/world.

1Jo 2:16
16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I think some [critics] would distinguish Word-Faith with the following:

1. Jesus Died Spiritually

2. The Little Gods

3. The Prosperity

4. Faith in Faith and/or Faith as a Force


....So the above are some things that critics will focus on when attempting to distinguish WoF from the rest of Christiandom (including Pentecostals and other Charismatics). Therefore, I list these things so that you will have an answer for when you are challenged in these areas..

You are so correct VW!
It is tragic that the only things most folks know about WOF are what you listed. But WOF is much much more! These issues, because they are controversial, do get the most play. But they are far from being the core teachings of WOF. Thanks for the work you have done, and I am planning to visit your website and create a link from my own to yours!

 

[victoryword]

Thanks Didi

I plan to put a reciprical link on my own site to you.

pmarquette's post reminded me of the other most controversial aspect of the Faith Movement that I forgot to mention, which is Positive Confession. Maybe I'll get to it later if someone else doesn't beat me to it (hahahaha!)

 

[LivingWorship]

Hi everyone, I got some questions here:

1)Jesus died spiritually... hang on a minute wasn't He born of spirit? How can HE be born again when He had the Spirit on him WELL BEFORE HIS DEATH?! If you don't believe he was born of spirit, what about the synagogue... "the Spirit of the Lord has anointed me..." He said today you see it fulfilled! Not three years, not tomorrow - TODAY!

Didn't He say on the Cross "it is FINISHED?" Why would He need to die a spiritual death if it was finished there? He can't be God if He didn't know, and if He lied then He sinned, making the spotless Lamb sacrifice VOID. This means that ANYONE could have been the sacrifice. If as some WOF teaches (copeland and Hinn included) say Jesus took on the nature of Satan - this makes Jesus either a liar or the devil, since there is NO evil on God just the same as there is no good in the devil. This is reincarnation... questions anyone?

JESUS did not die spiritually; if He was being tortured in hell then it must have been by God, since Satan's not there yet (isn't Hell the RESTING place for Satan and his angels? Satans' domain is here on earth!). Ps 139 also says that the Holy Spirit is over Hell as well as being over Heaven. Atonement was set in Genesis 3, the blood sacrifce of a sinless creature, and because Jesus is God, His sacrifice is once for all and His physical death is enough - PERIOD.

2)Little Gods... mate Hinn, Copeland and co continue to say that we are "little gods", Hinn even said that Adam was so much like God he could teleport himself to the moon... if it were in the Word I'd believe it, but as yet it's not in my Bible. This would make Christianity a polytheistic religion, somuch for God being Alpha Omega, the one true God. I would expect some of Luther's original teaching to be wrong because he was at the start of the Reformation, so it's possible to suggest he didn't get everything right. And as much as I love Narnia, C.S. Lewis was off base himself, so I wouldn't go listening to a men tell me about God when he equates the Word of God with a myth.

3)Prosperity... my pet PEEVE. I don't care who invented this doctrine, the fact WOF is preaching it suggests their leaders don't read their Bible, or at least enough. In the OT there was no Holy Spirit available to all like in the New. God's favour was therefore shown in the physical... Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Solomon - ALL and more still were blessed with monetary wealth. Flip into the second half of the Book and we discover that Jesus sends the Comforter, available to ALL. Now if we can be given the greatest possible blessing which is eternal (salvation, holy spirit, eternal life) why would God need to promise temporal blessings?

I'm not saying God can't provide, or God doesn't will for us to be wealthy... but he says that wealth makes us puffed up with pride (RICH YOUNG MAN: humble yourself to enter the kingdom of God). If poverty is uhbiblical as a blessing why then could Paul say he was "poor, yet making many rich"? Why did James say "Has not God chosen the poor of THIS WORLD to be RICH in FAITH and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?" Didn't Jesus say the poor/poor in spirit will inherit the Kingdom? And didn't Jesus have "no place to rest His head"... the Scriptures speak for themselves... and by that don't mix OT with NT theology... this is the WOF Prosperity doctrine, a mix of old covenant and new covenant... eye for an eye was replaced by turning the other cheek... interestingly Hinn, Crouch, Howard-Browne and the like have made death threats and curses public on TV or in the service. Men of God, shame really.

4) Faith "Force"... Ok, faith is being sure of what is hoped for... faith is being certain of what we do not see... without faith it is impossible to please GOD, there endeth the lesson. When will we realise that faith is all about God and not us?! Is it wrong to ask for God's provision, NO. Is it wrong to seek God for OUR pleasure... perhaps. He can and does supply ou NEEDS but not necessarily our WANTS. Yet all the time I hear people saying in WOF how God wants to bless you, and Hinn, Copeland and co continually brag about their posh homes and cars and wealth, and how God blesses them, hmmm... and yes, VW, Hinn and co have said on numerous occasions that FAITH IS A FORCE, it's not a misquotation. Faith as a force makes it to be a force that delivers unto us a weak God trapped by His own system, not so.

POSITIVE CONFESSION... do we get sick? Do we feel tired? Do we sin? YES!!To suggest that by PC we avoid the above is ludicrous, about as stupid as saying this light is green when it's red, it just makes NO SENSE. I have heard WOF teachers claim they are no longer sinners... this is a problem because 1 Jn 1:8 says that if we say "we have no sin we deceive ourselves".

DEAD MAN WALKING? being of the WOF camp you'd no doubt be familiar with Bonnke claiming that a dead guy was raised from the dead ON THE PLATFORM. Now I don't doubt the Lord's miraculous ability but apparently Mr Hinn does. In a service at church he bragged about how a dead pastor in Africa got up on the platform, and I believe he said we was there... then on the news or some Yankee current affairs show (sorry I have video footage but my memory's sketchy) that he didn't see it, he had heard of it, he wasn't sure of it's authenticity. Lie? Cover up? Did it really happen? Maybe... was Hin there.. seems he doesn't know.

INDULGENCES? Copeland has been quoted as saying "if you heal them they will pay anything".. so have se so cheapened divine healing that it's all for us to get rich? Please, please has anyone remembered Romans 2:4 - GOD'S KINDNESS BRINGS US TO REPENTANCE!!! Anything else is not important... healing is a miracle, Acts 4 says a miracle is God's kindness, Romans 2 says God's kindness is to lead us to repentance, forgivenesss and all that entails being a Christian... this does NOT include being wealthy so far as God NEVER promised it for us... didn't He say we will drink HIS CUP? That's a cup of suffering bretheren...

I am a pentecostal myself and I believe in the Holy Spirit and His power, but to use Him like a tap for our every WANT is a bit much for me to stomach, I just can't see how people can fall for this erroneous doctrine. Sorry this is so long-winded... but there is still too much to cover in this message so please everyone check out the following links, there's some stuff that's just amazing to imagine are going on in the name of Jesus. And Victory, I'm not having a go at you, I pray God would open your eyes and that you are set free from this heretical teaching. God bless you.

http://www.hbcdelivers.org/wfheresy.htmhttp://home.computer.net/~cya/cy00052.html
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/cm109910.htm

 

[LivingWorship]

It is tragic that the only things most folks know about WOF are what you listed. But WOF is much much more! These issues, because they are controversial, do get the most play. But they are far from being the core teachings of WOF. Thanks for the work you have done, and I am planning to visit your website and create a link from my own to yours!

Um didaskalos Jesus' alleged spiritual death IS an issue to the gospel. It would completely change our redemption... it means that anyone could be our redeemer, since His death accomplished nothing.

So if this is not a core teaching, the gospel cannot be a core teaching, and if the church stops preaching the gospel (great commission, hello!) then WHAT ARE THEY PREACHING?

POSITIVE CONFESSION is most definitely core, which thus makes Prosperity and Faith-Force core... since they promise this is available to all of us and is a blessing of the Lord... in fact they often say this is Abraham's blessing (O MY GOODNESS!) Abraham's blessing is SALVATION! It says so in Galatians 3.
Blessings everyone, and may the Lord open our eyes. If these posts are wrong may they fall on deaf ears.

 

[LivingWorship]

It is tragic that the only things most folks know about WOF are what you listed. But WOF is much much more! These issues, because they are controversial, do get the most play. But they are far from being the core teachings of WOF.

Um, if Jesus' spiritual death really happened then it would dramatically alter history, God would be defeated. The Bible tells me in Colossians that through his FLESH (ie physical death) we are reconciled to God. If He spiritually died then Satan would be victorious. And again Satan can't torture anyone in hell, because the Lord of Hell is the same Lord of heaven and earth - Satan will suffer eternally there.

If Positive Confession is core (and you'll find it is) then the rest of what VW said is core. And everytime I've heard a WOF speaker this is the tripe they come up with.

Back to the gospel... Jesus' spiritual death changes the gospel, so that essentially means the gospel is not a core teaching... which once again I'd agree with, because I have never heard the PURE gospel preached by any WOF teacher. So if we're not preaching the gospel (great commission, hello!) then what are we preaching instead? Blessings everyone, I pray you get to the truth.

 

[Andrew]

Hi Living Worship,

I would like to just address your question on Little gods ...

Are we gods?

Word of faith preachers who teach that Christians are "gods" (small "g", of course) have gotten plenty of flak for it. But what does the Bible say?

Man was made a little lower than God

* Psalms 8:5
5 You made him a little lower than God and crowned him with glory and honor.

Most Bibles translate this verse as "a little lower than the angels". But the Hebrew word here for "angels" is actually "elohiym" or "God".

The Psalmist goes on to say:

* Psalms 8:6-8
6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet:
7 all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field,
8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas."

The Psalmist is talking about Adam, the first man created directly by God. We see a similar account in Genesis.

* Genesis 1:28,29
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Read the verses slowly and think about them. Imagine God saying these things to you.

It is not difficult to see that Adam was a god over the earth (of course, he wasn't God). He was crowned with glory and honour, and appointed ruler over God's creation. God put everything under Adam's feet. He was given authority to fill the earth and even to subdue it. He was given authority to rule over every living creature. He was given every plant and tree for food.

You are gods (small "g" though)

Believe it or not, the Bible does say that of believers!

* Psalms 82:6
6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Again, the Hebrew word here for "gods" is "elohiym" or "God".

Are Christians "sons of the Most High" or children of God? Yes, so it follows that we are also "gods" according to this verse.

In the New Testament, Jesus himself quoted this verse when the Jews wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God:

* John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

It is not very different today -- there are Christians who want to "stone" other Christians for claiming to be gods! The latter are simply honouring what Christ has done for them.

A better covenant

So far, we have only looked at the Old Testament. Christians are now under a superior New Covenant (Romans 5:15-19). This means that Christians have it better than Adam, that is, they are in a better position today than Adam.

How so? Adam was not seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus, but Christians are!

* Ephesians 2:6
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

So, if Christians today are in a better position than Adam (before he fell), doesn’t that make them gods too?

King-priests

But if a Christian finds that powerful truth hard to swallow, he should at least believe that he is a king-priest in Christ Jesus, and start living like one!

* 1 Peter 2:9
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.


Conclusion

Will believing that you are a god under the lordship of the Most High make you want to exalt yourself above God? I don't think so. The same wisdom in Paul's response to the question, "Should we sin that grace may abound?", will be applied here if you understand God's grace.

On the contrary, I believe that it would make you more appreciative of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, which has brought you to such a blessed position. Also, this new revelation of your authority in Christ will make you want to go out and destroy the works of the devil, or run into hell with a watergun!

 

[Andrew]

Living Worship,

If you cant believe in the prosperity doctrine, (although it does say "Beloved I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospers."), at least believe that Christ redeemed us from the curse of poverty.

I'm sure you believe whole heartedly that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, which is basically: if you dont keep all of My laws, you will be cursed!

Well then, cursed with what?

Deu 28 lists in detail all the curses as well as the blessings. You will find that poverty and lack come under the category of curses, NEVER under blessings. I am still amazed how some Christians still see poverty and lack as blessings from God when Deu 28 makes it so clear.

So, if Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, then he has redeemed us from the curse of lack and poverty, among many other curses, like sickness, adultery etc.

The simple point I'm trying to make is that the Bible or God does not categorise lack and poverty as a blessing from Him but a curse.

Of cse, we understnd that God can still use a person who is poor, or use/turn his poverty for his own good -- to draw him closer to Him, cause him to rely more on Him etc, but that is not the point here, and that's is not how Christians should be living all their lives.

Wealth is like fire -- a good slave but a bad master. The Bible talks about both perspectives. Those who are against prosperity only focus on the -ve perspective and quote verses that support the -ve perspective, ignoring the +ve perspective. We should be aware or weary of the fact that wealth can destroy, but at the same time seek to prosper in all ways that we may be a blessing to the world. IOW, as I seek after God's own righteousness and His kingdom, His blessings overtake me, and becos I'm so blessed, I can bless the church, bless His kingdom work, bless the poor, etc.

 

[LivingWorship]

Andrew you have raised some very good points, and I can bring myself to a agree in part. I agree we are now our own royal priesthood, no arguments there. We no longer need the high priest to go on our behalf, we go on behalf of ourselves. So far as the Hebrew for angels... well I guess I must take your word that it means god
- BUT -
if that be the case then we are a little lower than gods... in other words WE ARE NOT.

We are of a fallen nature. It is true that God made man to have dominion over the earth, that hasn't changed. But to suggest that man in his fallen nature is a little god... when we can't even save ourselves... if we are gods, even little ones that means polytheism whether we want to admit that or not. Plus if you read Ps 82 it says further on that:
1- another word for god in that context is judge, not of ADONAI but a tribal leader or whatever... ancestor worship might be a better term
2- they will perish like men
Isn't God immortal... shouldn't we expect a god to live forever? If these gods are to die like men are they really gods? No, they were simply earthly kings revered as gods. Like ancestral worship or like Caesar or Hitler, claiming they were God.

Jesus only used that verse to justify Himself calling Himself the Son of God. I know my authority in Christ but that does NOT extend to me calling myself a god.

Also, Adam may not have been in heavenly places but He walked with God before the fall. God was in his very presence, and we will be in his very presence in heaven. Eden was, I believe much like heaven will be, peaceful and perfect, so I don't really think we will have it better... or perhaps we will be restored to what God made us to do... and if we somehow do get it better (and I can see why we might) then that just means that Christ has made the way possible, it's not because of us and I really doubt we wil be little gods... especially if we are lower than angels! One thing's for sure, we are NOT little gods in this life. Blessings...